Active speaker comparison

[mevdinc]

4 hours ago, Alpha Audio said:

We wanted to compare apples to apples... the ATC doesn't have a digital input. 

I have been using ATC actives since 1998 and my current system is the top model EL 150A with the outboard P6 amp. I use a DAC with a decent preamp/volume control and XLR output.
Of course, DSP aided active models such as Kii and D6D benefit from digital corrections to better suit the listening environments, but in my personal experience I always preferred the sound of my ATC actives in my dedicated and reasonably well treated listening room.
 

FWIW, I did listen to both Kii and D&D side by side and I liked the sound of D&D more; better sound stage and bass definition and control. To me D&D sounded more like my ATCs but obviously it couldn't match it in dynamics and low end reach and quality. However, if I were to downsize my system then D&D would be my first choice.
 

[FredM]

Here you go, the summary of the event:
 

https://alpha-audio.net/review/triple-test-high-end-studio-monitoren-met-samples-en-video/?fbclid=IwAR0_d1pBDM2sALFxYV5zotS62pUde72LKM_dFwWd6-ZhCvfiHc7vuS6gqu4

I can fully echo the experience with the D&D and Grimms, I listened both side by side at a dealer. Both excellent speakers without a doubt. I went all-in for the LS1be’s 👍, the flow and connection with the music is just stunning. Nice to see the goosebumps and emotion the panel also experienced during the session.

[fas42]

Good to see the FLACs uploaded so fast ... retrieved the James Taylor tracks, aligned them in Audacity, and switched between the two while playing. This confirmed the superior rendition of the D&Ds on the day, in that session - although the difference wasn't so obvious as with the YT clip. Particularly with the last 20 secs of the track - reproduction of the tone and space around the drum kit instruments was way in front - the Grimm was muffled and closed in, in comparison.

[Rexp]

11 hours ago, FredM said:

Here you go, the summary of the event:
 

https://alpha-audio.net/review/triple-test-high-end-studio-monitoren-met-samples-en-video/?fbclid=IwAR0_d1pBDM2sALFxYV5zotS62pUde72LKM_dFwWd6-ZhCvfiHc7vuS6gqu4

I can fully echo the experience with the D&D and Grimms, I listened both side by side at a dealer. Both excellent speakers without a doubt. I went all-in for the LS1be’s 👍, the flow and connection with the music is just stunning. Nice to see the goosebumps and emotion the panel also experienced during the session.

I'm confused, earlier you said you wondered if the digital input would sound better, since you own the Grimms, haven't you tried it? 

[FredM]

Ah, I meant how the three speaker would compare with each other when the D&D and Grimms are connected using the digital input. (AA explained they wanted to compare apples with apples)

[blue2]

11 hours ago, fas42 said:

Good to see the FLACs uploaded so fast ... retrieved the James Taylor tracks, aligned them in Audacity, and switched between the two while playing. This confirmed the superior rendition of the D&Ds on the day, in that session - although the difference wasn't so obvious as with the YT clip. Particularly with the last 20 secs of the track - reproduction of the tone and space around the drum kit instruments was way in front - the Grimm was muffled and closed in, in comparison.

The James Taylor track is a nice recording (2019 remaster?) but seems to be from a 50 year old master. Try the start of the Jacques Loussier Trio on all 3 speakers. The expert panel reaction tells it all, and I'd trust their experience in the room over mine listening to the samples at home even though some flavours from the original are still evident. You'd need a system at least as resolving as the Grimms to get an accurate impression, otherwise imperfections in your own system will double up or cancel with the test sample.

BTW Mark Otten (the guy in the middle) is very perceptive and knowledgeable in these comparisons. I'd like to hear his impressions on future equipment tests.

[mevdinc]

I watched the entire video and agree with the majorıty of the comments expressed by the participants.
The main strength of both Grimm and D&D is the DPS processing to get rid of major room modes and they can be placed/positioned much easier in rooms. And I could see that the positioning was very close to the back wall, preferred method for D&D and most digital actives.
For me ATCs were much too close to the back wall and it adversely effected the clarity of the vocals and some of the details in the mids. In fact, ATCs are well known for their mid dome clarity and detail, that's the reason many engineers use them for mixing and mastering.
I would go for D&D over Grimm though.

[Alpha Audio]

10 minutes ago, mevdinc said:

I watched the entire video and agree with the majorıty of the comments expressed by the participants.
The main strength of both Grimm and D&D is the DPS processing to get rid of major room modes and they can be placed/positioned much easier in rooms. And I could see that the positioning was very close to the back wall, preferred method for D&D and most digital actives.
For me ATCs were much too close to the back wall and it adversely effected the clarity of the vocals and some of the details in the mids. In fact, ATCs are well known for their mid dome clarity and detail, that's the reason many engineers use them for mixing and mastering.
I would go for D&D over Grimm though.

 

We explicitly asked the distributer for ATC how to place the speakers. They asked us to get close to the wall to get rid of boundart effect. So we did... 

[mevdinc]

2 hours ago, Alpha Audio said:

 

We explicitly asked the distributer for ATC how to place the speakers. They asked us to get close to the wall to get rid of boundart effect. So we did... 

Please don't misunderstand my comment. Noway I am implying that you did anything wrong.
I just wanted to highlight a well known factor about the ATC mid range dome and the possible problems with the close to wall placement. I am surprised that the distributor made that suggestion, you have a very well treated room and with adequate toe-in and experiment with placement you should be fine.

Like I said, I really enjoyed your video and also agreed with most of the comments and findings.
Keep up the good work.
 

[fas42]

12 hours ago, blue2 said:

The James Taylor track is a nice recording (2019 remaster?) but seems to be from a 50 year old master. Try the start of the Jacques Loussier Trio on all 3 speakers. The expert panel reaction tells it all, and I'd trust their experience in the room over mine listening to the samples at home even though some flavours from the original are still evident. You'd need a system at least as resolving as the Grimms to get an accurate impression, otherwise imperfections in your own system will double up or cancel with the test sample.

BTW Mark Otten (the guy in the middle) is very perceptive and knowledgeable in these comparisons. I'd like to hear his impressions on future equipment tests.

 

You're going to have to be careful, using that particular track in the capture - here are the waveforms,

 

 

For whatever reason, big variation in the volume envelopes over the length of the clips; almost looks like different music ... now, which version is going to be more impressive at the start, looking at the levels at that point?

[fas42]

As a further exercise, downloaded an Opus compressed sample of the Fugue track from YT, and aligned that with the two captures just mentioned, in Audacity - the source file, IOW. Switching between the source version, and the two captures while playing, it was clear that the D&D was more true to the source, in tonality. This was particularly noticeable in the treble notes of the piano, and the drum work on the cymbals.

[Alpha Audio]

5 hours ago, fas42 said:

As a further exercise, downloaded an Opus compressed sample of the Fugue track from YT, and aligned that with the two captures just mentioned, in Audacity - the source file, IOW. Switching between the source version, and the two captures while playing, it was clear that the D&D was more true to the source, in tonality. This was particularly noticeable in the treble notes of the piano, and the drum work on the cymbals.

 

That is some nice thinking :-). 

[Alpha Audio]

9 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

You're going to have to be careful, using that particular track in the capture - here are the waveforms,

 

 

For whatever reason, big variation in the volume envelopes over the length of the clips; almost looks like different music ... now, which version is going to be more impressive at the start, looking at the levels at that point?

 

I noticed this in Audition as well. Seems like a different way of handling dynamics... We are investigating this at the moment. 

[Alpha Audio]

18 hours ago, mevdinc said:

Please don't misunderstand my comment. Noway I am implying that you did anything wrong.
I just wanted to highlight a well known factor about the ATC mid range dome and the possible problems with the close to wall placement. I am surprised that the distributor made that suggestion, you have a very well treated room and with adequate toe-in and experiment with placement you should be fine.

Like I said, I really enjoyed your video and also agreed with most of the comments and findings.
Keep up the good work.
 

 

Thanks for the feedback!

[Lone Mountain Audio]

On 11/5/2020 at 5:17 AM, mevdinc said:

 

On 11/5/2020 at 2:50 AM, Alpha Audio said:

 

We explicitly asked the distributer for ATC how to place the speakers. They asked us to get close to the wall to get rid of boundart effect. So we did... 

 

There must be something lost here in translation.  As an ATC distributor, we are mostly in pro but also home, I would never say "get them close to the wall" unless i wanted you to pick something else.  "Close to the wall" would  increase boundary reflections, playing havoc with the image and mid/HF tone.  Maybe they said rear boundary?  Which wall did they suggest? 

 

Getting speakers AWAY from boundaries is normally the best plan in almost all cases.   Want to hear a good demo?  Go into a large room with boundaries far away.   Want to hear a bad demo?  Get speakers near boundaries, especially on the sides.  

 

Too bad, I would have suggested calling ATC and asking the engineers there about what is best.  After all, the guys at the factory are acoustics guys, with a lot of experience with their speakers in lots of environments.

 

Brad

[Rexp]

I'm an ex ATC dealer, the other thing the panel said was the ATC were more coloured when in fact ATC's are the least coloured speakers I've ever heard. They get out of the way and let your hear whats on the recording. 

[fas42]

21 hours ago, Alpha Audio said:

 

I noticed this in Audition as well. Seems like a different way of handling dynamics... We are investigating this at the moment. 

 

I'm very interested in using the software tool, DeltaWave, which is being developed by a member here, @pkane2001, to investigate what's going on in a track when things sound different. And started looking at the Meraki Fiber Test - FLAC files. Before I get into things too deeply, I would like to point out that there are glitches in the captured waveforms, for some reason - specifically, the Jaques Loussier - Meraki Fiber, and Jaques Loussier - Meraki SFTP CAT7 tracks; as if a sample or two was dropped. Meaning, when you compare two files, that there is a sudden jump in the difference between the two, at a specific point - they are no longer in alignment.

 

Would you be aware of some reason why this happened?

[Alpha Audio]

3 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

I'm very interested in using the software tool, DeltaWave, which is being developed by a member here, @pkane2001, to investigate what's going on in a track when things sound different. And started looking at the Meraki Fiber Test - FLAC files. Before I get into things too deeply, I would like to point out that there are glitches in the captured waveforms, for some reason - specifically, the Jaques Loussier - Meraki Fiber, and Jaques Loussier - Meraki SFTP CAT7 tracks; as if a sample or two was dropped. Meaning, when you compare two files, that there is a sudden jump in the difference between the two, at a specific point - they are no longer in alignment.

 

Would you be aware of some reason why this happened?

 

That is really odd! That shouldn't be possible. Back then we recorded in lossless AVI (now we record in Pro-res) and extracted the WAV's from the avi. The wav's are now converted to FLAC for better tagging and efficient hosting. 

If there were glitches, I should have noticed it in the recording. I'm curious what happened. 

[Alpha Audio]

6 hours ago, Rexp said:

I'm an ex ATC dealer, the other thing the panel said was the ATC were more coloured when in fact ATC's are the least coloured speakers I've ever heard. They get out of the way and let your hear whats on the recording. 

 

I get the feeling viewers think we didn't like the ATC. We did like the ATC. I - Jaap Veenstra - just think the Grimm (and in some ways the D&D) is less colored. The ATC had a glow in the bass / mid-low for my feeling. 

[Alpha Audio]

15 hours ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

There must be something lost here in translation.  As an ATC distributor, we are mostly in pro but also home, I would never say "get them close to the wall" unless i wanted you to pick something else.  "Close to the wall" would  increase boundary reflections, playing havoc with the image and mid/HF tone.  Maybe they said rear boundary?  Which wall did they suggest? 

 

Getting speakers AWAY from boundaries is normally the best plan in almost all cases.   Want to hear a good demo?  Go into a large room with boundaries far away.   Want to hear a bad demo?  Get speakers near boundaries, especially on the sides.  

 

Too bad, I would have suggested calling ATC and asking the engineers there about what is best.  After all, the guys at the factory are acoustics guys, with a lot of experience with their speakers in lots of environments.

 

Brad

 

Well: I just asked... "How should I place them in the room". Hey was very clear about placement. I'm not familiar with all speakers. Some need to be very close to the wall, others should be placed completely free from boundaries. In the control room they have build in PMC... so... I just asked the distributor about his view on placement. 

 

You learn every test. Also this test was very educational. Had a lot of fun, feedback, insights... 

[mevdinc]

34 minutes ago, Alpha Audio said:

 

I get the feeling viewers think we didn't like the ATC. We did like the ATC. I - Jaap Veenstra - just think the Grimm (and in some ways the D&D) is less colored. The ATC had a glow in the bass / mid-low for my feeling. 

I thought you all loved the ATC, especially all your reactions and facial expressions were great during the first test track. And your comments regarding the effortless big sound, dynamics, clean and accurate bass etc were all spot on.
My problem was with the comments about the mid range/vocals. In fact, mid range detail, accuracy and clarity are amongst ATC's main strengths. This is what surprised me the most and the reason I thought what you experienced was probably caused by the placement.
All the best.

[Alpha Audio]

11 minutes ago, mevdinc said:

I thought you all loved the ATC, especially all your reactions and facial expressions were great during the first test track. And your comments regarding the effortless big sound, dynamics, clean and accurate bass etc were all spot on.
My problem was with the comments about the mid range/vocals. In fact, mid range detail, accuracy and clarity are amongst ATC's main strengths. This is what surprised me the most and the reason I thought what you experienced was probably caused by the placement.
All the best.

 

OK! Good to know! 
Have a great weekend!  

[Jan van der Meij]

This interesting article led me to this forum.

https://pura-audio.nl/en/2020/11/09/comparative-loudspeaker-tests-how-do-you-get-the-most-out-of-them/ 

As D&D 8c owner I was very curious about the comparison by Alpha-Audio and therefor I spent the whole 2,5 hours following the livestream. I was the one mentioning the volume differences during the session.

 

Cheers, Jan

[Alpha Audio]

22 minutes ago, Jan van der Meij said:

This interesting article led me to this forum.

https://pura-audio.nl/en/2020/11/09/comparative-loudspeaker-tests-how-do-you-get-the-most-out-of-them/ 

As D&D 8c owner I was very curious about the comparison by Alpha-Audio and therefor I spent the whole 2,5 hours following the livestream. I was the one mentioning the volume differences during the session.

 

Cheers, Jan

 

That is a very good article. And he is completely right!

 

- You should ALWAYS listen for yourself

- Blind testing is best... but not possible in a live stream review ;-). Putting speakers side by side could be a solution. 

    - We did a blind test with network-switches. With readers / folowers of Alpha Audio. That was a lot of fun! 

- Short pieces. I don't really agree on that one. Listening a complete track gives some other insights. But short pieces are definately useful. That's why we create 'Pure Music' video's. We compare some products and edit the video in a certain way: we cut audio every 30 seconds. That way differences become very clear. 

- The volume part is definately true. We are working on a better solution than the dB meter. So...yes... that is VERY important and we are aware of this. All samples are always leveled. So in the database every track is normalized. 

 

About measurements; we actually measure a lot of speakers we review. You can check alpha-audio.net for that. And yes: it does give a lot of insight. But you need to learn how to read them. For example: frequency respons is not all that important (it is for studio's of course). Distortion ís really important. And I noticed that the 3rd harmonic is crucial in terms of coloration. 

 

Anyway... Thanks for posting this link. Very good feedback. 

[blue2]

@Alpha Audio What do you think about the microphone position? It's not in the same spot as the reviewers so we don't get to hear exactly what you did in the session. If it was we'd hear the comments louder and people moving in their seat, etc. What about recording the test tracks separately from the review session with the microphone at the sweet spot for the web audience to hear after the live stream? Could be 2-3 mins to minimise the effort and for copyright reasons. And all tracks could be carefully level adjusted. Just a suggestion?