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Network Playback, Buffers, Continuous Stream, etc...


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We've spoken about how the endpoints determine the buffering. Here is a video I shot in 2015 for another thread. with a $200 Asus  laptop over 802.11g 54Mbps wireless using JRiver feeding an Emotiva DC-1 DAC. Watch as even lowly G wifi goes dormant.

 

This is why I still use a computer to this day as an endpoint with a DAC that is impervious to the upstream device. Options like the Rendu are expensive and, imo and data supports this, no consequence on fidelity or improved S.I.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Can you be more specific than, “I always use a PC?” If endpoint is hardware, software, firmware, etc... what do you always use?

 

I don’t believe the endpoint determines much. If I disable flow control I can overwhelm many endpoints. Roon Server determines its flow, not the endpoint. 

 

I have a Dell R620 for file services with 10GB MM, End point is a Windows 10 PC with JRiver with 10GB MM SolarFlare.

 

Flow Control is superseded by QoS and you don't use them together. Flow Control is used for highly loss sensitive data flows. I don't run it in production.

 

I think another productive conversation should be how do we buffer and what does best practice look like?

 

Tidal will buffer an entire track on Mac and Windows.

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2 hours ago, One and a half said:

If the measured peaks are 20MBs for Roon and 10MBs for Jriver, then why is 10GBe used? Wouldn't 100 MB/s Ethernet be fine, for playback or is there an overhead that can cause complications? 

 

This is application and build specific. The beauty behind a software only player like JRiver is that Jim and Co. are afforded the creative freedom that abstracting their software provides.

 

I can literally que up and entire album over 10GB in a few seconds and then I'm done with the network connection. The overhead is in me building a system that is silent and has 8GB of RAM that 1GB can be set aside for buffering.

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17 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

There's not a single "this is how it works" statement to be made, but I think a good discussion could pull out some details that may educate people. 

 

I just want to add some color, from my posting history, about this statement. I've always spoken about what I consider the best approach for me and under what circumstances. I've never made any statements about any scenarios, software+endpoint hardware that I haven't thrown under the microscope. I know how to pick the hills I'm willing to die on ;-)

 

That is JRiver and Tidal will buffer up entire tracks as quick as wire speed allows. I've even made the point that using Roon as a front end for Tidal breaks this buffering model.

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3 hours ago, ericuco said:

 

I was monitoring the network traffic as the last track finished up and there was a continuous small amount of inbound (RX) traffic until maybe 5 -10 seconds before the track ended then the traffic dropped to basically nothing.

 

So it appears that a chuck of the file is loaded (buffered) well before it starts playing (thus the spike) then a constant stream after that.

 

That would make perfect sense: If you have established a 10 second buffer you fill that and then rate out to keep it filled. I would rather less handling be done.

 

We have powerful, low TPD, high throughput network options. I would like more devs to take advantage of these setups.

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5 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Here's Roon on CAPS Twenty sending to Roon Bridge on CAPS Twenty.One. Very different from JRiver to JRiver. 

 

roon to bridge.jpg

My experience with Roon is it doesn't set aside very deep buffers.

 

With devices like sub $100 Pi 4 with 8GB RAM and 1GBe I would like to see some flexibility in setup preferences.

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  • 1 month later...
7 hours ago, octaviars said:

 

In my system with Roon/Qobuz the song is buffered as soon as I hit play. I can see the activity on my routers SFP port is high for a couple of seconds after that I can disconect the SFP from router to switch and the song will finish from my Roon ROCK machine via the switch to my endpoint.

Before I moved to Qobuz I had Tidal and that worked the same way have tried it on short songs, long song and it always worked this way in my sytem.

If I use Mosaic on my dCS network bridge to play Qobuz I get a continius stream instead.

 

The stream still isn't realtime, there are just a lot more, but smaller, buffering operations.  This is the part that is perplexing. Why even have 100,200,500,1000 mbit internet connections if they aren't going to be used to their full advantage? Why have laughably affordable 10GBe in home connectivity if audio playback software is going to treat it like dial up from 1989?

 

But this all circles back to my original contention that this thread is based on: You aren't playing directly off the wire, your are indeed playing out of buffer, doesn't matter if it's a 1 second buffer of 10 minute buffer. These highs, the 'stereo' separation, PRaT, what have you all attributed to a switch or cable is just bonkers.

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On 10/27/2020 at 12:11 AM, One and a half said:

I see this method now and again, but hesitate, since Windows has files open on other drives, interrupting that process is a bit of work to fix, so rather not yank the plug out. 

 

If you have a purpose built audio end point and the only library across the wire is the music library, or your only doing audio, then I think that is a bit of a moot point.

 

When you reinsert the plug Windows will do it's darndest to bring the mapped drive or UNC path back up.

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23 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

It's impossible to do anything off the wire. Computers just don't work that way. 

 

I know, but you can't tell the audiophile switch/ethernet cable population that. Well you can but it's ignored. Reminds me of some other fact denying groups....

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35 minutes ago, octaviars said:

 

Did I write that the stream is realtime?

 

I just wrote the differences between streaming Qobuz in Roon or via dCS Mosaic software. Roon buffers the whole song directly to disk in ROCK machine then plays to the buffer in my dCS endpoint and playing Qobuz directly in dCS Mosaic runs a buffer with a couple of seconds in it.

 

Thanks. I just wanted to make sure it's spelt out for anyone reading this that the continuous stream isn't like it is with analog playback. You are just seeing a smoothed graph of a bunch of 1 second copies.

 

 

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3 hours ago, octaviars said:

Well it is easy to see that it is not a continuos stream if you look at the router.

 

Activity at the port during start of playback in Qobuz via Roon, tops out at 200Mbps then no activity or very little during playback.

 

1856882802_SFPRoon.thumb.jpg.89167152160f65d8843d248ebe937ea1.jpg

 

This is the activity filling the buffer when playing Qobuz in dCS Mosaic, peaks at 3.5Mbps during the whole song.

 

278688638_SFPMosaic.thumb.jpg.22e754c25b3ba5aff4fc04e587e45bf4.jpg

 

 

 

This is much easier for the non-tech person to digest.

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