Article: Amazon Music HD Is Still Lossy

[The Computer Audiophile]

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[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

Smart TVs, Subscription Services Leak Data to Facebook, Google

https://threatpost.com/smart-tvs-leak-data/148482/

 

Netflix reminds everyone it’s creeping on them

https://techcrunch.com/2017/12/12/netflix-reminds-everyone-its-creeping-on-them/

 

Now the $64,000 question is whether they're getting paid to invade our privacy while gaining even more profits from such activities

 

https://theconversation.com/amazon-echos-privacy-issues-go-way-beyond-voice-recordings-130016

https://www.businessinsider.com/professional-hackers-amazon-alexa-google-home-horoscope-spying-voice-apps-2019-10

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/oct/09/alexa-are-you-invading-my-privacy-the-dark-side-of-our-voice-assistants

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/amazon-alexa-echo-listening-spy-security-a8865056.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-8013225/Former-Amazon-Executive-reveals-switches-Alexa-wants-private-moment.html

 

Pretty Orwellian if you will

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/senators-demand-amazon-stop-spying-drivers-social-media-2020-9

https://medium.com/radical-urbanist/jeff-bezos-can-thank-exploited-workers-for-his-100-billion-d3d5245a6e1b

https://www.vice.com/en/article/3azegw/amazon-is-spying-on-its-workers-in-closed-facebook-groups-internal-reports-show

https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/4/8/21214117/amazon-warehouse-workers-coronavirus-senator-booker-chris-smalls-senators-letter

https://www.forbes.com/sites/angelauyeung/2020/04/24/amnesty-international-calls-on-jeff-bezos-to-address-amazon-employees-concerns-about-working-conditions/

Is there a tie-in to Amazon Music HD?

[The Computer Audiophile]

7 minutes ago, jrobbins50 said:

Speaking of Qobuz, I’ve been a TIDAL user, which offers up HD via MQA. I’ve never tried Qobuz.  Is HD without MQA the reason that you prefer Q over T, Chris?  JCR 

There are a few reasons. I like lossless high resolution not lossy MQA. I like the Qobuz interface on mobile 100% more. I like Qobuz recommendations way more. I also like to support Qobuz because Qobuz supports the HiFi community. Ever since Tidal was sold the company stopped coming to HiFi shows and interacting with the HiFi community. Qobuz is the complete opposite. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

19 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

I assume Bob S. wouldn’t agree to the term lossy when it comes to MQA

He can use whatever alternative facts he wishes. The fact remains that once a file is in MQA format, it can never be converted back to the original non-MQA format because data is thrown away. That by definition is lossy. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, UELong said:

It's Canada who gets overlooked, too much.  Would a VPN allow Canadians to get Kobuz?

It likely depends on other things like billing address but you could try something easy like Tunnel Bear and see. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, 992Sam said:

some time ago, Amazon banned me from being able to do any reviews, and furthermore deleted my prior reviews...  I'd been an Amazon member since 2002 and they did this without any sort of due process and refused to allow me to appeal the ban.. they essentially refused to tell me what I did wrong (and I could not recall anything out of the ordinary) but at the same time they were perfectly happy to keep my membership going so I can spend the thousands of dollars I'd spent thru their stores...

 

Suffice it to say, I've now been a non-amazon user for over two months and I frankly don't miss it... 90% of what they sell is Walmart grade made in China crap anyway... and it's not that hard to find things I do need that are of that level of quality at a Target, Walmart, or Etsy online store...

 

So the fact that they have crappy music streaming now just solidifies my lack of desire to return as a customer. 

That’s what it’s like to do business with them as well. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 hours ago, jcbenten said:

Amazon set up their music service to support their "smart", Alexia speakers...not to cater to a few hanging out in the corner messing around with cables, optical networks, and power supplies.  These little speakers are nifty and sound ok but are meant to be convenience devices stuck in a corner.  Much like Apple, Amazon is not going to mess around to satisfy the few even though Amazon probably has the power and $$ to make the labels create really good masterings of the music.  

Agree. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

@The Computer Audiophile what's the status of Amazon Music HD on the Bluesound Node 2i ?

 

That's not bitperfect with auto sample rate switching, using it's digital output?

That’s the one product I wish I had here for testing, but I don’t. My guess is that the Node 2i can’t make a lossy stream lossless if you know what I mean. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

I def get what you mean but how do you know the stream itself is lossy?

 

From what I understood from your article, you haven't been able to confirm bit perfect playback with the stuff you have to playback (and I see that is a common frustration with people using the desktop and mobile apps for Amazon Music HD).

 

But that doesn't mean the stream itself is lossy?

 

I manually setup macOS, Windows 10, and tried a Sonia Port (more on that in another article). With manual setup, I should be able to get lossless for a single sample rate if the stream is lossless. If the stream is lossless but the apps can’t reproduce a lossless stream with any configuration, this would be the first time I’ve ever seen this. 
 

The issues usually come about when switching sample rates or getting the sample rate of the output to match the input stream. Once this is manually set and all the other gremlins are tended to (no EQ, volume to 100%, etc...) the app just passes along what’s sent to it. 
 

As it stands now, if one can’t get lossless audio from a service through any known/tested means, I have to conclude its lossy. I wish there was other hardware integrated with the service.

 

If I can get a node 2i for testing I’ll get it done. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, asdf1000 said:

 

All noted. I would completely agree with this conclusion if you had also confirmed with a Node 2i. 

 

It's possible you may need to do a major update to your article after testing with a Node 2i (or maybe not).

 

 

Ok cool.

Absolutely.
 

It would be strange if the company providing the stream offered no way of hearing it unaltered, but it’s possible. 

 

Sonos Port couldn’t play Amazon bit perfect, but it also couldn’t play bit perfect from Qobuz or Tidal. My old Sonos Connect had no trouble with this. If I can find my Connect and stream Amazon through it, this will provide an additional data point. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

12 minutes ago, Daren F said:

DTS Play-Fi will also play amazon Music HD bit perfect.

There’s no way to test this. Given my other testing with Play-Fi devices, I’d be absolutely shocked if this was bit perfect. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

15 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

Even if I don't entirely agree with your current conclusion,

No worries. I’ll get a node 2i one way or the other. I’d hate to have put out misinformation. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, Daren F said:

 

I say bit perfect in the sense that the bit rate and sample rate change on my preamp to reflect what Amazon claims the track quality is.

Ah, ok. 
 

This means the right sample rate is being played, but it isn’t indicative of bit perfect playback. In my tests I duplicated this by manually setting the sample rate, yet it still wasn’t lossless. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Guys, I just put a request in to Lenbrook for a Bluesound Node 2i for testing. I explained what's going on and that I just want to provide this community with additional accurate information. If this falls through, I'll get one another way. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, asdf1000 said:

 

This posted just last week:

 

 

 

The crap UI via the BluOS app is a common complaint, but that's probably for a different article.

 

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/amazon-music-hd-weakest-link-my-streamer.955018/page-4#post-25135712

Thanks for the info. However, it’s a common misconception that sample rate = bit perfection. Think about it this way, play the right sample rate but crank the digital volume control way down. That’s chopping off tons of bits, yet the sample rate is right. 
 

I have a node 2i on the way. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

24 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

What is wrong with setting Windows to play all Amazon HD files at 24/192? Why is bit-perfect preferred?

This is where someone like @Miska could probably give a much better answer, but I’ll give you mine. 
 

Setting Windows to 192 means some DSP is taking place. Is the resampling done by the Amazon app or Windows? I’m guessing by Windows but I’m not totally sure. Either way, the DSP is likely of very low quality compared to the advanced processing of something like HQPlayer or a dCS Upsampler. I prefer to have a real high end app or component handle DSP rather than something that’s designed to increase compatibility like Windows processing. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

9 minutes ago, whell said:

Hi - just wondering if you had a chance to check out the Node 2i with Amazon Music yet?  My Amazon Music HD subscription hangs in the balance of your feedback. 😎

Supposed to receive it soon from Lenbrook. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, peter73 said:

@The Computer Audiophile How does one test bit-perfect transmission if there is no source file to compare the end output to?

Hi Peter, here's how I test. 

 

I use a Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC that identifies and decodes HDCD on all sample rates. When an unaltered HDCD file is played, the HDCD indicator on the DAC is illuminated. The HDCD flag is on the 16 bit for CD files and the 24th bit for high resolution files. Any alteration, DSP, volume leveling, etc... changes this least significant bit and won't enable the HDCD indicator to illuminate. That's the hardware piece. 

 

With respect to source files, here's what I do. 

 

I have a list of roughly ten known HDCD albums (although I could use more if needed). Many of these albums were only released as HDCD encoded CDs/files. There is no alternate lossless version. For example, Reference Recordings only releases music that's HDCD encoded. 

 

I set a baseline by playing my own local copy of the albums and make sure the HDCD indicator illuminates.

 

Then I try Qobuz through its own apps and third party integrated hardware and Roon. In this instance, the music illuminated the HDCD indicator. 

 

Then I do the same with Tidal. Again, in this instance, the HDCD indicator on my DAC was illuminated. 

 

When I tried Amazon apps with this same material, about ten different albums, the HDCD indictor never illuminated. I'm still waiting on the Bluesound Node 2i I was promised a couple weeks ago, but Lenbrook is way back ordered on them. This would enable me to test third party hardware with Amazon Music HD integration. 

 

Possible holes in my methodology: Absolutely there are possible holes, but I believe I've minimized them as much as possible. The two major ones are source material. Sure Amazon could have different source material from all other lossless streaming services, but after checking with labels, I highly doubt this is the case. The second one is Amazon's adaptive bit rate. Amazon could be sending me lossy versions of the files and sending other people lossless versions, but I think this is highly unlikely as well. I have a 1 gigabit upload/download unmetered fiber internet connection. I routinely check the speed and see between 800 Mbps and 940 Mbps. If Amazon doesn't think this is a fast enough connection for lossless audio, then I doubt anyone else is going to receive lossless audio, thus making the platform lossy. 

 

I'm happy to discuss this further if necessary. 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Guys, the Bluesound Node 2i will be here Friday. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

The Node 2i is in my system and testing has begun. Interesting results so far. Full article to come. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, whell said:

One thing I do really like about Amazon - I couldn't find a similar feature on Qobuz - are Amazon music "stations".  I can pick a genre of music and that music will play all day in that genre of finding them it off.  Great for just playing music of my choice unattended.   Also, after about a week or so, Amazon will create a "station" called My Music based on the music genres I typically listen to.   It also sound pretty darn good to my ears.  

Stations would be a welcomed feature of Qobuz @David Craff

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, juleepriest said:

 

But it doesn't have things like Spotify Connect, and I need to use Roon to control it across devices, yes? 

It supports Chromcast, which is just like Spotify Connect. Multiple devices are best done through Roon. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

26 minutes ago, Cookie Marenco said:

Chris, thank you for the article.  You are on the right track.  

 

Blue Coast Records has recently signed a distribution deal with a very large company (to be announced soon) and in the process have uncovered some interesting processes that have not been transparent in the past.  What you suspect about the files is true....  what the labels upload to the servers for distribution is not what the digital services providers get (like Amazon, Spotify, Tidal, Apple, and also known as dsps in our legal agreements).  

 

We were signed because of the oncoming push for HD... specifically Amazon.  I can't mention names right now, but I can say that there are third party delivery services that take what the label uploads to the distributor and delivers to the dsps. 

 

Here's an example of what happens. 

 

We uploaded 192WAV and the dsp is selling a 9624.  Huh?  The dsp can handle 192.  They already have our directly sent files... so who sent the 9624?  And did an unapproved conversion in the middle?  Yes, our interns can hear the difference.

 

I can't talk about this publicly yet, but I will chat with you on email or phone.   The dsps in the know are not happy about this situation either and we're all being thrown into this hodge podge partly because of ignorance on the end of the third party delivery service or their unwillingness to spend the money to provide the correct files.

 

So why did we do this deal in the first place?  Yes, we have our own store at BlueCoastMusic.com where we continue to sell DSD, WAV and FLAC downloads that we personally prep and perfect to ridiculous standards.  We did this deal for the sake of the artists on Blue Coast Records who aren't all audiophiles and need Spotify to validate their existence.  We did it to reach a larger audience where quality is less of a concern.  I believe our acoustic music merits a wider following so we're stepping out into the fray.

 

But not at the expense of our audiophile listeners.  We plan on giving them the best quality files we can where ever we can.  You are right... it's a mess out there.

 

It's been a long time since we've chatted, my audiophile friend!  

Stay well,

 

Cookie Marenco

Blue Coast Records and Music

https://bluecoastmusic.com/

 

Thanks for all the info Cookie!

[The Computer Audiophile]

7 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

Hi @The Computer Audiophile

 

Are you keeping your Amazon Music HD subscription going or cancelling?

 

Would be interesting if you could revisit every 3 or 4 months, unless someone else discovers a breakthrough in their desktop apps.

 

The fact that they introduced 'Exclusive Mode' earlier this year gives me hope that someone at Amazon had an idea to try and get bit perfect playback, even if it failed for now.

 

So I have hope they will work it out at some point in 2021.

 

Especially if they bump into this article of yours !

I keep it going for two reasons. 
1. I have to know all the services inside and out and test them. 
2. My mom streams Amazon Music HD to her EarPods with my account and loves it. She told me how good it sounds. No way I’ll get rid of it now. :~)

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, JETHEAT said:

all of the ones i have looked at from cambridge audio to NAD to marantz all seemingly ignore amazon music hd. i wonder why. 

 

The deal with Amazon Music HD is not that HiFi companies are ignoring it, more like Amazon is ignoring HiFI companies. Amazon is notoriously difficult to work with and doesn't even respond to most HiFi companies attempts to communicate with Amazon.