HD800 - where to go next?

[jamesjames]

5 hours ago, Musicophile said:

I still haven't tried the Susvara, it's on my to do list for a tour to my local dealer, but I agree the SE is very good. When I compared directly it I still preferred the Focal Utopia somewhat, but it was a close second.

 

For now, I still haven't jumped from my HD800/HDVA600 combo, as indeed there's some magic for using it in classical music. 

Yes, I agree your combo is hard to beat.  I would have continued to use my HDV820 amp (I haven't sold it!) had I not been won over by crossfeed.  My experiments with the Moon, SPL and iFi amps have really been efforts to find something with crossfeed that's competitive.  In light of several years' listening now to the Moon (less with the SPL Phonitor and less again with the iFi Pro iCan/iFi Pro iESL), I can say I still prefer the HD800S/HDV820 combo if I'm not using crossfeed.  But I have to say I now see crossfeed as necessary - and differences between phones like the HD800/S, HE1000SE, SR-009/S are less important to me than crossfeed - I think I would prefer any of them with crossfeed over any of the others w/o.  It's not a subtle effect, and it makes phones less like phones and more like the real world I think.  The performance space emerges in a way that's otherwise only hinted at.  Digital crossfeed may one day be as convincing - but not yet I think (although I haven't heard the latest efforts from dCS or Weiss).

 

One other thought re MySphere, RAAL and the like phones (mentioned above in this context).  Whatever their strengths, I find there's a very high price to pay in terms of use.  I haven't used the RAAL, but suspect they might share some of the qualities of the MySphere and K1000, which I think may have a high monitoring value but (in my view) lower domestic value.  A simple thing like keeping it on your head, for example, can become a major issue!  (I recently read a very amusing post by the Audiophile Skunk on the dilemmas presented by phones like these - it's still up I think.)

[Musicophile]

26 minutes ago, jamesjames said:

Yes, I agree your combo is hard to beat.  I would have continued to use my HDV820 amp (I haven't sold it!) had I not been won over by crossfeed.  My experiments with the Moon, SPL and iFi amps have really been efforts to find something with crossfeed that's competitive.  In light of several years' listening now to the Moon (less with the SPL Phonitor and less again with the iFi Pro iCan/iFi Pro iESL), I can say I still prefer the HD800S/HDV820 combo if I'm not using crossfeed.  But I have to say I now see crossfeed as necessary - and differences between phones like the HD800/S, HE1000SE, SR-009/S are less important to me than crossfeed - I think I would prefer any of them with crossfeed over any of the others w/o.  It's not a subtle effect, and it makes phones less like phones and more like the real world I think.  The performance space emerges in a way that's otherwise only hinted at.  Digital crossfeed may one day be as convincing - but not yet I think (although I haven't heard the latest efforts from dCS or Weiss).

 

One other thought re MySphere, RAAL and the like phones (mentioned above in this context).  Whatever their strengths, I find there's a very high price to pay in terms of use.  I haven't used the RAAL, but suspect they might share some of the qualities of the MySphere and K1000, which I think may have a high monitoring value but (in my view) lower domestic value.  A simple thing like keeping it on your head, for example, can become a major issue!  (I recently read a very amusing post by the Audiophile Skunk on the dilemmas presented by phones like these - it's still up I think.)

Sounds like I should give crossfeed a try.

[jamesjames]

5 hours ago, Musicophile said:

Sounds like I should give crossfeed a try.

Well, I guess it can't hurt ... If you're anything like me, you might need to overcome some initial hesitation at moving away from the conventional headphone ambiance.  I should say I 'discovered' crossfeed by accident - I wasn't looking for it.  The Moon amp had the circuit, which I avoided as something of no interest for quite a while.  I switched it in several times over several months before I started to hear something positive in it (I may have been influenced by the apparent general consensus that it's a bit of a gimmick - that serious listeners actually prefer the 'special' ambiance of phones).  By degrees, I came to appreciate it, and now can't live without it.  Some reading gave me a better sense of the thinking behind it, and the technical shortcomings of the conventional set-up.  It explains a counter-intuitive improvement in bass management with crossfeed, as well as the more obvious benefit in terms of three-dimensional effect.  The iFi and SPL amps both allow significant adjustment in terms of intensity and 'spread' of the effect, whereas the Moon doesn't.  It's been of some interest to me that I prefer the Moon (slightly) overall.  I can't say with confidence how much of that preference is due to the way in which crossfeed is implemented - my suspicion is that the Moon is a better amp in all respects.  Even with the SPL, I don't find myself altering the crossfeed settings - I feel there is a 'best' general setting, and I stick with that (I had a similar feeling about the iFi).

 

Anyway, good luck if you try it.

 

James

[Musicophile]

I'm still toying with the idea of upgrading from my HD800, also following the recent review by  @austinpop below.

 

So today I went to my local headphone dealer, and did an interesting comparison, using their local Chord Dave and Qobuz as a source.

 

I was able to compare the Final D8000 Pro, the Audeze LCD5, the HD800S (just for reference), the Meze Elite, and the Focal Utopia. I was hoping to throw the Susvara in the mix, but unfortunately my dealer doesn't have it open for demos. The sales guy also said that he wouldn't recommend buying the Susvara's without reference quality amplification. 

 

As a result of my comparison, I still like the Utopias most, followed very closely by the Finals. However, I find the leather of the Utopias significantly more comfortable than the velvety material of the D8000 Pro. 

 

The Meze Elite just had a sound profile that didn't work for me, and the LCD5, while being the lightest Audezes I've ever tried, were just too uncomfortable. 

 

It's really hard to describe, but the Utopias simply sounded "right" for me, and my musical taste.

 

It seems to me that headphones are an even more personal preference choice than most other hifi components, given how much they need to physically fit you, and I'm pretty sure that your head and ear shape influences the final sound profile. Or maybe I just prefer the sound profile of dynamic drivers over planar ones. 

 

I'll probably have to finally put my money where my mouth is and upgrade to the Focals. 

 

 

[jamesjames]

For what it's worth, I'm inclined to agree individual preferences and characteristics are very important - more important I think than many audiophiles would like to admit.  Your thought that you might prefer dynamic phones certainly strikes a chord with me - I certainly do.  I can also understand your reaction to the Utopia.  I used it extensively over a couple of years before coming back to the HD800S for its magical way with performance space - but the Utopia is very seductive I think.  I wonder in retrospect whether the Phonitor amp I mentioned above (which I didn't own at the time) might have been an even better match for the Utopia.  It conveys a sense of tremendous space and air, which might work very well.  It also has crossfeed of course ...

[austinpop]

11 hours ago, Musicophile said:

It seems to me that headphones are an even more personal preference choice than most other hifi components, given how much they need to physically fit you, and I'm pretty sure that your head and ear shape influences the final sound profile. Or maybe I just prefer the sound profile of dynamic drivers over planar ones.

 

This is very true, these days more than ever before. The quality of TOTL headphones has reached a level where it becomes a matter of matching your personal preferences and head geometry to the headphones. 

 

You went about it in a thoughtful manner, and I am sure the Utopia will delight you. They're great headphones.

 

As a teaser, I'm concluding the listening for my upcoming review of electrostatic headphones. All I will say is that these are sublime, but the price of entry is very high, both in terms of the headphones and the necessary amplification.

[Musicophile]

5 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

This is very true, these days more than ever before. The quality of TOTL headphones has reached a level where it becomes a matter of matching your personal preferences and head geometry to the headphones. 

 

You went about it in a thoughtful manner, and I am sure the Utopia will delight you. They're great headphones.

 

As a teaser, I'm concluding the listening for my upcoming review of electrostatic headphones. All I will say is that these are sublime, but the price of entry is very high, both in terms of the headphones and the necessary amplification.

I'll have to wait until that review then before I pull the trigger just to be safe :-)

[Musicophile]

8 hours ago, jamesjames said:

For what it's worth, I'm inclined to agree individual preferences and characteristics are very important - more important I think than many audiophiles would like to admit.  Your thought that you might prefer dynamic phones certainly strikes a chord with me - I certainly do.  I can also understand your reaction to the Utopia.  I used it extensively over a couple of years before coming back to the HD800S for its magical way with performance space - but the Utopia is very seductive I think.  I wonder in retrospect whether the Phonitor amp I mentioned above (which I didn't own at the time) might have been an even better match for the Utopia.  It conveys a sense of tremendous space and air, which might work very well.  It also has crossfeed of course ...

That reminds me, I saw that the Chord Dave I used for the listening comparison at my dealer at a crossfeed feature as well. I wanted to try it out but then got so immersed into the headphone comparison that I forgot about it. Need to find an SPL dealer near me. 

[davide256]

On 2/19/2022 at 7:32 AM, Musicophile said:

I'm still toying with the idea of upgrading from my HD800, also following the recent review by  @austinpop below.

 

So today I went to my local headphone dealer, and did an interesting comparison, using their local Chord Dave and Qobuz as a source.

 

I was able to compare the Final D8000 Pro, the Audeze LCD5, the HD800S (just for reference), the Meze Elite, and the Focal Utopia. I was hoping to throw the Susvara in the mix, but unfortunately my dealer doesn't have it open for demos. The sales guy also said that he wouldn't recommend buying the Susvara's without reference quality amplification. 

 

As a result of my comparison, I still like the Utopias most, followed very closely by the Finals. However, I find the leather of the Utopias significantly more comfortable than the velvety material of the D8000 Pro. 

 

The Meze Elite just had a sound profile that didn't work for me, and the LCD5, while being the lightest Audezes I've ever tried, were just too uncomfortable. 

 

It's really hard to describe, but the Utopias simply sounded "right" for me, and my musical taste.

 

It seems to me that headphones are an even more personal preference choice than most other hifi components, given how much they need to physically fit you, and I'm pretty sure that your head and ear shape influences the final sound profile. Or maybe I just prefer the sound profile of dynamic drivers over planar ones. 

 

I'll probably have to finally put my money where my mouth is and upgrade to the Focals. 

 

 

Electronics can definitely bias results both from personal preference and sound signature. I would recommend to anyone considering a high quality headphone

that they audition with a Linear Tube Audio headphone amplifier if authentic instrument timbre ranks highest on your preferences.

[davide256]

A headphone thats not for me but which should also be auditioned are the Dan Clark Ether 2 and Elite headphones. The Ether 2's are impeccably neutral, incredibly light and comfortable and can make other headphones sound irritating in the treble when compared. If I needed to wear headphones 8 + hours a day,

these would be hard to beat for lack of listening fatigue. But they aren't my cup of tea for richness of timbre, Meze Empyrean and Focal Utopia

I would give higher marks.

[davide256]

5 hours ago, davide256 said:

A headphone thats not for me but which should also be auditioned are the Dan Clark Ether 2 and Elite headphones. The Ether 2's are impeccably neutral, incredibly light and comfortable and can make other headphones sound irritating in the treble when compared. If I needed to wear headphones 8 + hours a day,

these would be hard to beat for lack of listening fatigue. But they aren't my cup of tea for richness of timbre, Meze Empyrean and Focal Utopia

I would give higher marks.

Sorry crossed wires here, ,meant Dan Clark Stealth, not to be confused with Meze Elite. I have not heard these but find it hard to believe they wouldn't further improve on

the Ether 2

[jamesjames]

On 2/20/2022 at 5:20 PM, Musicophile said:

That reminds me, I saw that the Chord Dave I used for the listening comparison at my dealer at a crossfeed feature as well. I wanted to try it out but then got so immersed into the headphone comparison that I forgot about it. Need to find an SPL dealer near me. 

I've done some more A/B testing between the Moon, the SPL and the Sennheiser HDV820 over the last few days.  And I must say I'm increasingly sure that I prefer the Moon.  It really has been an interesting process.  In short, I think the Moon and the Sennheiser offer tremendously refined sound, by which I mean quite natural to my ear, with a tendency to create a three-dimensional performance space even w/o crossfeed.  They are both better in that sense to my ear than the SPL and the iFi Pro iCan.  The Sennheiser is so good even w/o crossfeed that I would use it in preference to the iFi (which offers crossfeed and is still a very appealing amp I think).  I would choose the SPL over the Sennheiser simply because it has crossfeed - recognising it doesn't have quite the refinement of the Sennheiser.  I find w/o crossfeed that the Moon and the Sennheiser offer equally appealing - although different - presentation (the Sennheiser is probably more 'colourful').  But, with crossfeed, the Moon is clearly more appealing to me.  Of course, this was all done using my HD800S phones - so there's a question whether I would come to the same conclusions using the Utopia.  Based on my recollection of the Utopia (always dangerous!), I think I would probably still prefer the Moon over the SPL.  I guess output impedance (Moon 1.25 ohms, SPL less than 1 ohm) would not affect the issue (Utopia ~100 ohms).  And both amps are so good that I have no real doubt the Utopia's inherent character would emerge unscathed.  I hope this is of some interest if you continue to look into crossfeed.

Regards

James

[Musicophile]

3 hours ago, jamesjames said:

I've done some more A/B testing between the Moon, the SPL and the Sennheiser HDV820 over the last few days.  And I must say I'm increasingly sure that I prefer the Moon.  It really has been an interesting process.  In short, I think the Moon and the Sennheiser offer tremendously refined sound, by which I mean quite natural to my ear, with a tendency to create a three-dimensional performance space even w/o crossfeed.  They are both better in that sense to my ear than the SPL and the iFi Pro iCan.  The Sennheiser is so good even w/o crossfeed that I would use it in preference to the iFi (which offers crossfeed and is still a very appealing amp I think).  I would choose the SPL over the Sennheiser simply because it has crossfeed - recognising it doesn't have quite the refinement of the Sennheiser.  I find w/o crossfeed that the Moon and the Sennheiser offer equally appealing - although different - presentation (the Sennheiser is probably more 'colourful').  But, with crossfeed, the Moon is clearly more appealing to me.  Of course, this was all done using my HD800S phones - so there's a question whether I would come to the same conclusions using the Utopia.  Based on my recollection of the Utopia (always dangerous!), I think I would probably still prefer the Moon over the SPL.  I guess output impedance (Moon 1.25 ohms, SPL less than 1 ohm) would not affect the issue (Utopia ~100 ohms).  And both amps are so good that I have no real doubt the Utopia's inherent character would emerge unscathed.  I hope this is of some interest if you continue to look into crossfeed.

Regards

James

Thanks. I think I’ll start out partnering the Utopia with my existing HDVA600 as a starting point. May not be the perfect combo but should at least do the job, particularly on the symmetrical out. Then I’ll investigate further into amps as the perfect match for the Focals. Crossfeed is clearly one avenue I need to check out, but I must admit I’m also somewhat tempted to see what tube stuff is out there. Yet another rabbit hole to go down. 

[Summit]

Crossfeed, DSP, EQ and so on reduce SQ in a high resolving headphone system, IME.

[jamesjames]

2 hours ago, Summit said:

Crossfeed, DSP, EQ and so on reduce SQ in a high resolving headphone system, IME.

That's good to know ... I'll maintain a weather eye in particular for the 'so on'.

[jamesjames]

On 2/13/2022 at 8:55 AM, jamesjames said:

Yes, I agree your combo is hard to beat.  I would have continued to use my HDV820 amp (I haven't sold it!) had I not been won over by crossfeed.  My experiments with the Moon, SPL and iFi amps have really been efforts to find something with crossfeed that's competitive.  In light of several years' listening now to the Moon (less with the SPL Phonitor and less again with the iFi Pro iCan/iFi Pro iESL), I can say I still prefer the HD800S/HDV820 combo if I'm not using crossfeed.  But I have to say I now see crossfeed as necessary - and differences between phones like the HD800/S, HE1000SE, SR-009/S are less important to me than crossfeed - I think I would prefer any of them with crossfeed over any of the others w/o.  It's not a subtle effect, and it makes phones less like phones and more like the real world I think.  The performance space emerges in a way that's otherwise only hinted at.  Digital crossfeed may one day be as convincing - but not yet I think (although I haven't heard the latest efforts from dCS or Weiss).

 

One other thought re MySphere, RAAL and the like phones (mentioned above in this context).  Whatever their strengths, I find there's a very high price to pay in terms of use.  I haven't used the RAAL, but suspect they might share some of the qualities of the MySphere and K1000, which I think may have a high monitoring value but (in my view) lower domestic value.  A simple thing like keeping it on your head, for example, can become a major issue!  (I recently read a very amusing post by the Audiophile Skunk on the dilemmas presented by phones like these - it's still up I think.)

Looking again at this, I thought I should probably add a sentence or two, as I think it's a bit misleading as is.  The Mysphere 3.2 is one of the only two headphones I now own (the HD800S being the other).  In terms of my own preferences, it's far and away the best headphone I've encountered.  But I think it requires first rate recordings and ancillary equipment to perform.  It's not as comfortable as the Sennheiser - not as convenient in terms of outstanding performance most of the time.  A perfectionist transducer.  There are quite a few positive reviews out there, including some comparisons with the RAAL, which describe its character.  So I would choose it over the Sennheiser these days - I have a collection of music which is to some extent chosen with these phones in mind, and the Moon is I think a very complementary amp.  I would hesitate to recommend it generally as that would turn on some very specific preferences.  But if you share those preferences, it truly is a revelation.

[Musicophile]

So, latest update to my journey: I just bought the Utopias and am burning them in right now. 

 

I had another last minute comparison to another potential competitor, the T&A Solitaire P, which are very nice as well, and the MySphere 3 (which I couldn't even get to sit comfortably on my head) but the overall package of the Utopia (comfort, materials, and outstanding sound quality) really convinced me.

 

I'll probably have to explore new amps at some point, but so far my Sennheiser HDVA600 seems to have no problem driving them quite well.

 

Final thought on what triggered the decision for the Utopias: I believe it is not the transparency, nor the tonal balance, nor the sound stage, many others (including my old HD800) are better on some of them, but instead the amazing microdynamics.

 

In a way, for classical music, I'm really just listening to music, not to audio, and the entire hifi business just disappears into the background. And for Jazz, my "foot-tap-o-meter" (it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing) is 10/10.

 

I'll however keep my HD800, as the Utopias are just a bit heavier and really can't live up to the Sennheisers in terms of their amazing comfort for very long listening sessions.. 

[Musicophile]

And to wrap up the saga: I’ve just added a Naim Uniti Atom Headphone Edition to drive my Utopias. Very happy with this all in one combo.

[Blake]

Nice combo.  Curious if you tried your Naim driving the HD800's and compared to the Senn amp driving the HD800?

 

 

[Musicophile]

3 hours ago, Blake said:

Nice combo.  Curious if you tried your Naim driving the HD800's and compared to the Senn amp driving the HD800?

 

 

Not yet as I’m currently not at home for several weeks. Inhabe the Utopias with me but not the HD800. I’ll try eventually and report back. 

[jamesjames]

I would also be interested in your thoughts on the Naim with the HD800.  On the the HD800 more generally, I should mention too that my views of the amps mentioned above - Moon 430HA and SPL Phonitor xe - have evolved.  In short, I now think the Phonitor is the equal of the Moon - perhaps better, depending on personal preferences.  With the HD800S, I think the Phonitor works better; with the HD800, I think I prefer the Moon.  This may seem a bit it odd, but I find the early production units of the HD800 sound quite different to the later units (which are actually quite like the HD800S in some respects).  The early HD800 is lighter, brighter, more articulate in the lower frequencies.  The HD800S I think is more controlled, less brilliant, but perhaps more natural.  The two amps I've mentioned seem to play differently to the strengths of each.  Of course, as I've mentioned, I use crossfeed at all times, and I think its implementation in each amp affects things very significantly.  I can't really say that I prefer one combo over the other - I find myself  going from one to the other every few months, appreciating their particular strengths.  So, if you have a continuing interest in the HD800 family, you might like to audition these amps. For info, my reading (and the examples I own) suggest the 'early' HD800 morphed into the later HD800 around S/N 17,000.

[Musicophile]

5 hours ago, jamesjames said:

I would also be interested in your thoughts on the Naim with the HD800.  On the the HD800 more generally, I should mention too that my views of the amps mentioned above - Moon 430HA and SPL Phonitor xe - have evolved.  In short, I now think the Phonitor is the equal of the Moon - perhaps better, depending on personal preferences.  With the HD800S, I think the Phonitor works better; with the HD800, I think I prefer the Moon.  This may seem a bit it odd, but I find the early production units of the HD800 sound quite different to the later units (which are actually quite like the HD800S in some respects).  The early HD800 is lighter, brighter, more articulate in the lower frequencies.  The HD800S I think is more controlled, less brilliant, but perhaps more natural.  The two amps I've mentioned seem to play differently to the strengths of each.  Of course, as I've mentioned, I use crossfeed at all times, and I think its implementation in each amp affects things very significantly.  I can't really say that I prefer one combo over the other - I find myself  going from one to the other every few months, appreciating their particular strengths.  So, if you have a continuing interest in the HD800 family, you might like to audition these amps. For info, my reading (and the examples I own) suggest the 'early' HD800 morphed into the later HD800 around S/N 17,000.

Happy to report back. I have a very late production model as my unit was bought less than a year before the 800S came out (Ironically it now seems that Focal will be soon releasing an updated version of the Utopia less than 6 months after I bought mine). 
 

On crossfeed, I had some time to experiment as I also recently bought a Chord Mojo 2 as a portable setup which has a digital cross feed feature. At least what I’m hearing on the Mojo crossfeed really doesn’t seem to be my thing. 
 

On buying even more amps, I don’t see myself buying yet another solid state one. However during my purchasing process of the Naim I auditioned several tube amps, notably the Cayin HA300Mk2, and the even more impressive Malvalve Headphone Amp 3 Mk 4. There’s really something about tubes. 

[davide256]

When you  try tube headphone amplifiers, do give an audition to the LTA Microzotl 3. One of the annoying factors with tube gear is euphonic coloration from pre tubes

and low bass sag. The Berning transformer-less design behind the MZ3 greatly reduces those issues and doesn't burn out tubes so fast

[Musicophile]

On 8/20/2022 at 7:04 PM, davide256 said:

When you  try tube headphone amplifiers, do give an audition to the LTA Microzotl 3. One of the annoying factors with tube gear is euphonic coloration from pre tubes

and low bass sag. The Berning transformer-less design behind the MZ3 greatly reduces those issues and doesn't burn out tubes so fast

I’d love to but I’ve found that there’s quite limited possibility to audition US based gear in Europe. Distribution of these small brands still is an issue.

[Musicophile]

On 8/18/2022 at 9:11 AM, jamesjames said:

I would also be interested in your thoughts on the Naim with the HD800.  

I now had the opportunity to compare the HD800 on the Naim HE vs. my Sennheiser HDVA600.

 

First of all, both are able to drive the HD800 very nicely. 

 

If I had to compare, the Naim is a bit more "organic", whereas the Sennheiser (driven by the pre-out of the Naim for comparison's sake) is a tad more transparent and analytical.

 

I actually really like my two headphone setups. The Naim really has excellent synergies with the Utopia, and the HDVA600 just complements the more analytical nature of the HD800. I assume for some the HDVA600/HD800 combo could be a bit fatiguing, but for me it works well. I'll keep both setups around.