HD800 - where to go next?

[Musicophile]

18 hours ago, Blake said:

I am still in the middle of my headphone trials.  The Empyrean, HD800 and HD800S all have their own charm.  I just love the "out of the head" presentation of the HD800/S, although the Empyrean head stage is no slouch.  I am surprised how different the HD800 and HD800S sound from each other.

 

The HD800S is comparatively warmer sounding than the HD800 and is certainly more forgiving of poor recordings.  The HD800 have more sparkle and sounds/instruments are more clearly dissected than with the HD800S and the HD800 bass hits a bit harder than HD800S.  The Empyrean is just a great all-rounder that is hard to fault and is also more forgiving of bad recordings than the HD800.

 

Right now it is a tie between Empyrean and HD800S.  If the vast majority of my music was well-recorded, my un-modded HD800 would possibly replace the HD800S on the list.

 

Comfort wise, the HD800/S is still the king, but the Empyreans are close.

 

I wanted to end up with just one headphone, but I am tempted to keep the Empyrean and one of either the HD800S or HD800.  One thing is certain- I remain very impressed with the good old HD800 and it can still compete after all these years.  I have also decided that I cannot live with a headphone with a smaller/more intimate head stage so that crosses off the Utopia as an option (the driver failure rate is also disconcerting).  If Focal ever comes out with a Utopia-level option with a more open head stage, I would give it a try.  ZMF Verite Open is also somewhat intriguing, but I am at a point with these 3 headphones that I don't have much interest in any other headphones.

 

 

 

 

I agree with @Summit below, check out the Hifiman 1000SE if you can before you settle on the Empyrean. May just be the right compromise you're looking for. It was a very close second for me to the Utopia. 

[Blake]

Ok @Musicophile and @Summit I did a bit of research and I am taking your advice.  I just purchased a used pair of Hifiman 1000SE.  

 

I got them at a good price so if I don't end up preferring them, I can sell them for at or close to what I paid.  

 

 

[Musicophile]

22 minutes ago, Blake said:

Ok @Musicophile and @Summit I did a bit of research and I am taking your advice.  I just purchased a used pair of Hifiman 1000SE.  

 

I got them at a good price so if I don't end up preferring them, I can sell them for at or close to what I paid.  

 

 

Wow, that was quick. Very curious to hear your verdict and comparison vs. Meze.

[oso]

Good recordings sounds great on my HD800 bad recordings sounds bad.

Listening again to recording from Joe Whip's latest review, Joe's ONE Mic + , review and it is incredible.

For that kind of recordings I always return to my HD800 but for less well recording albums I'm thinking of getting a Grado 1000, which seems to be a bit more forgiving.

[Bob Stern]

Instead of buying new headphones, if your main goal is to reduce long term listening fatigue, you might try using a PEQ plugin to introduce a dip at 3.5 or 4 kHz.  Would not cost a pfennig to try!

[Summit]

On 11/4/2020 at 6:52 PM, Blake said:

Ok @Musicophile and @Summit I did a bit of research and I am taking your advice.  I just purchased a used pair of Hifiman 1000SE.  

 

I got them at a good price so if I don't end up preferring them, I can sell them for at or close to what I paid.  

 

 

 

That sounds like a great strategy. However, I am convinced that you will find it difficult to get rid of the HE1000se once you have heard them at home with your music and audio system.

[Blake]

My HE1000SE's arrived today. 

 

While I could very happily live with Empyrean, HD800 or HD800S, the HE1000SE's are the headphones for me.  The Empyrean should not be discounted though, they are amazing and have a great, lush and forgiving sound while still being very detailed.

 

I could see others having a different viewpoint based upon individual preferences but for me, I very quickly determined they are the winner.  I knew it after only a couple of songs.  This is the sound presentation I have been searching for, I just didn't know it until I tried them.  Where have you been all my life? 

 

Thanks for the recommendations!  My search is over.  

 

 

[Musicophile]

18 hours ago, Blake said:

My HE1000SE's arrived today. 

 

While I could very happily live with Empyrean, HD800 or HD800S, the HE1000SE's are the headphones for me.  The Empyrean should not be discounted though, they are amazing and have a great, lush and forgiving sound while still being very detailed.

 

I could see others having a different viewpoint based upon individual preferences but for me, I very quickly determined they are the winner.  I knew it after only a couple of songs.  This is the sound presentation I have been searching for, I just didn't know it until I tried them.  Where have you been all my life? 

 

Thanks for the recommendations!  My search is over.  

 

 

Glad it worked out for you. As mentioned I was also truly impressed by the 1000SE. For me it is a very close 2nd favorite after the Utopia's. 

[jamesjames]

I couldn't resist making one or two observations on this topic, as it goes to a question that's exercised me for years.  Is the HD800 really as good as it gets for the audiophile with an interest in classical music?

 

I'm interested in classical music, and knew when I first listened to the HD800 that it was something quite special.  Indeed, it was the catalyst for a permanent move away from loudspeakers to headphones.  As much as I admire the HD800, however, my relationship with it has been vexed.  I've never been able entirely to ignore the fundamental spectral balance weighted in favour of higher frequencies.  I moved in time to the HD800S, which I think is an improvement.  And I continue to think it's a great achievement.  But like some others, I've recently found the Empyrean seems to offer more - a better balance.  I must say I was surprised by this - the Empyrean initially struck me as a little veiled, and not really consistent with my preference for precision.  It was only after some time that I came to understand what it has to offer.  And I'm inclined these days to think it comes as close as anything I've heard to reproducing the warmer feeling of a live concert or recital, rather than the sometimes hyper-real sound of the studio.

 

The other contender which continues to hold my attention is the Stax SR-009S.  I find it entirely compelling - although it might be thought to suffer from the 'hyper-real' syndrome.  Whatever, I can't resist the forensic insight it brings to complex musical structures.  I find myself alternating most regularly now between the Stax and the Meze.

 

One final point that's been relevant for me is cross-feed - a controversial subject, I know.  My current preferences are I guess affected by my underlying preference for cross-feed.  I've experimented over the last few years and have found in the Moon 430HA amplifier an analogue cross-feed circuit which I regard now as the 'default' setting for listening.  I'm able to carry this over to the electrostatic realm by attaching an iFi Pro iESL energiser, which allows me to hear my Stax phones with the benefit of the Moon cross-feed circuit.  I find cross-feed can add a degree of realism otherwise missing for me.  My experience is that results vary, depending on components, but can transform particularly the sense of the space in which a performance is recorded.  A subject worthy of its own discussion, no doubt.

[Kelly]

The Dan Clark Ether series is a really superb headphone that I haven’t seen get a lot of love on this thread. It really does nothing wrong and all of their headphones emphasize ergonomics. They are probably difficult to find for auditions though.

[Kelly]

On 9/13/2021 at 2:03 AM, jamesjames said:

I couldn't resist making one or two observations on this topic, as it goes to a question that's exercised me for years.  Is the HD800 really as good as it gets for the audiophile with an interest in classical music?

 

I'm interested in classical music, and knew when I first listened to the HD800 that it was something quite special.  Indeed, it was the catalyst for a permanent move away from loudspeakers to headphones.  As much as I admire the HD800, however, my relationship with it has been vexed.  I've never been able entirely to ignore the fundamental spectral balance weighted in favour of higher frequencies.  I moved in time to the HD800S, which I think is an improvement.  And I continue to think it's a great achievement.  But like some others, I've recently found the Empyrean seems to offer more - a better balance.  I must say I was surprised by this - the Empyrean initially struck me as a little veiled, and not really consistent with my preference for precision.  It was only after some time that I came to understand what it has to offer.  And I'm inclined these days to think it comes as close as anything I've heard to reproducing the warmer feeling of a live concert or recital, rather than the sometimes hyper-real sound of the studio.

 

The other contender which continues to hold my attention is the Stax SR-009S.  I find it entirely compelling - although it might be thought to suffer from the 'hyper-real' syndrome.  Whatever, I can't resist the forensic insight it brings to complex musical structures.  I find myself alternating most regularly now between the Stax and the Meze.

 

One final point that's been relevant for me is cross-feed - a controversial subject, I know.  My current preferences are I guess affected by my underlying preference for cross-feed.  I've experimented over the last few years and have found in the Moon 430HA amplifier an analogue cross-feed circuit which I regard now as the 'default' setting for listening.  I'm able to carry this over to the electrostatic realm by attaching an iFi Pro iESL energiser, which allows me to hear my Stax phones with the benefit of the Moon cross-feed circuit.  I find cross-feed can add a degree of realism otherwise missing for me.  My experience is that results vary, depending on components, but can transform particularly the sense of the space in which a performance is recorded.  A subject worthy of its own discussion, no doubt.

So no digital cross feeds sound good?

[jamesjames]

14 hours ago, Kelly said:

So no digital cross feeds sound good?

I moved from analogue sources to digital many years ago and have no interest in vinyl or valves.  I think hi-res digital was another great step forward, and more than half of my collection is now hi-res PCM or DSD (including SACDs).  But, I must admit, digital playback has raised some unexpected issues.  I was surprised to find that the benefits of hi-res are to me marginal (at best) via loudspeakers - one reason I prefer headphones.  Also, I find streamers and servers introduce problems of their own - sometimes lower resolution material, sometimes digital processing noise intrinsic to the component or architecture, sometimes both.  I'm happiest using digital players, linear amps and balanced analogue connections.  My system is quite simple: a Marantz SA10 digital player connected to a Moon 430HA amp by van den Hul Mountain balanced cables.  I play discs or usb drives loaded directly into the Marantz - quite 'old school' really!  I find this produces an almost miraculous clarity and tactility - which in my experience can't be equaled by streaming or serving.  So, to take an example, I find files played via foobar2000 connected to the Marantz usb DAC input allows very high quality (and adjustable) digital crossfeed and eq, but at the expense of some clarity and texture.  Similarly, connecting to a Sennheiser HDV820 usb DAC results in reduced quality (I think the Sennheiser is a lovely analogue amp, although its digital section isn't the equal of the Marantz).  I've tried dedicated servers but, in my view, the additional digital processing seems always to leave a trace.  By using an amp with an analogue crossfeed circuit, I can avoid the digital issue that worries me.  Of course, some of these circuits are better than others (I think some are pretty awful, and certainly not as good as foobar and other digital implementations), but some are brilliant.  I prefer the Moon, as I say, but have found the iFi Pro iCan and the SPL Phonitor amps also include excellent analogue crossfeed sections.

[kelvinwsy]

Just sharing some thoughts on my own Hi-Fi passage. I own the HD800 too. tried the anaxilus / and SD foam tweak. You too noted the high frequency tilt of the Sennheiser HD800. Tried the 800s - sounded a bit artificially mellowed out in the upper freq ranges. Sounded closed in too relative to the HD800. 

Does it get any better than the HD800. Yes there are other Headphones that sound more balanced than the HD800. I switched to the Abyss AB-1266 Phi/CC. It is definitely more balanced across the frequency spectrum ranges that matter. The Meze Empyrean sounds very good as well as the HiFiman HE-1000 series. 

 

Good CD transports and Players can sound very good. But for access to more Hi-Res music, there is only so much one can do with physical discs even SACDs. Even if the CDP allows you to upsample and output a digital stream. (I cannot speak on the best of the Esoteric and APL and Memory Players. Never heard them and they must sound good.)

But within a reasonable  5-8k USD budget, you will be better served going the PC Server way.

Foobar 2000 does not sound good. There are so many better Software music players. Just visit the software section of this forum and they are all featured.

The Moon HA430 is a fabulous amp and yes the Sennheiser does not have a great DAC section. 

Fact remains that if you are only using the digital circuitary in the Marantz SA-10, complex and sophisticated as it may be, it still may not match the wizardry of the latest Software players in use by members of this forum. Of course YMMV. As always system matching and compatibility is most important

 

Just my few cents worth above.

 

[jamesjames]

6 minutes ago, kelvinwsy said:

Just sharing some thoughts on my own Hi-Fi passage. I own the HD800 too. tried the anaxilus / and SD foam tweak. You too noted the high frequency tilt of the Sennheiser HD800. Tried the 800s - sounded a bit artificially mellowed out in the upper freq ranges. Sounded closed in too relative to the HD800. 

Does it get any better than the HD800. Yes there are other Headphones that sound more balanced than the HD800. I switched to the Abyss AB-1266 Phi/CC. It is definitely more balanced across the frequency spectrum ranges that matter. The Meze Empyrean sounds very good as well as the HiFiman HE-1000 series. 

 

Good CD transports and Players can sound very good. But for access to more Hi-Res music, there is only so much one can do with physical discs even SACDs. Even if the CDP allows you to upsample and output a digital stream. (I cannot speak on the best of the Esoteric and APL and Memory Players. Never heard them and they must sound good.)

But within a reasonable  5-8k USD budget, you will be better served going the PC Server way.

Foobar 2000 does not sound good. There are so many better Software music players. Just visit the software section of this forum and they are all featured.

The Moon HA430 is a fabulous amp and yes the Sennheiser does not have a great DAC section. 

Fact remains that if you are only using the digital circuitary in the Marantz SA-10, complex and sophisticated as it may be, it still may not match the wizardry of the latest Software players in use by members of this forum. Of course YMMV. As always system matching and compatibility is most important

 

Just my few cents worth above.

 

Fair points, all.  I readily concede the Marantz does indeed cater to my current sense of how things should sound (eg, a subjective view about a plausible 'flattering' acoustic for chamber music).  And I seem to have a preference for native DSD recording and processing.  I have tried some of the players you mention - but the practical trade-offs so far have weighed in favour of the Marantz/Moon combo for me (including the fact that they're both very reliable - not a given with all high-end gear!). That said, I have no doubt I could live very happily with many other systems - and perhaps even come to prefer them ...

[kelvinwsy]

I was listening to my Abyss AB1266 phi/cc driven by 2 units 30 watt Class A monoblocs .. reading this column and was inspired to plug in my Senn HD800 .. spent a few minutes equalizing the level and spent a while listening to the HD800! Without spending a few listening sessions, I now remember why the HD800 sit on my shelf gathering dust... The bright Sound Signature requires my tube setup to tame it!! Tubes only make the HD800 lack of real authorativr bass WORST! 

 Here is my TT setup with All Tube Setup.. I used to run the HD800 with a Hifiman Resistor box.. 

No regrets going Class A solid state monoblocs to drive those power hungry Abyss AB1266 Phi/CC

 

 

 

[jamesjames]

And this reminds me of the real point here for me - apologies for wandering away from the topic.  It seems I'm probably less concerned than some about the 'bright' signature of the HD800 family - I find the HD800S superb, just a little thin in places.  When using conventional set-ups, I'm not sure whether I prefer the HD800S, the SR-009S or the Empyrean - they each seem to have their strengths.  But the Empyrean seems more dramatically improved by crossfeed than the other two.  I've speculated that the added body in the upper frequency range is somehow important in producing the effect.  Whatever the reason, I find the Empyrean projects a radically more three dimensional image, apparently further forward of the head - much as you experience with loudspeakers (or when listening to a performance at a concert).  I find this creates a more life-like, solid image of the space in the which the performance is taking place, which I find to be a tremendous improvement in terms of realism.  Detail and texture seem more naturally integrated in a musical performance at some distance from the listener.  It took me some time to get used to this - I think it reduces the 'immediacy' of the conventional headphone experience.  But I now hear that immediacy as exaggerated, and prefer the distance crossfeed brings.  So my current preference for the Empyrean is really as part of system that enhances the crossfeed effect.  I've mentioned above the other components that I currently use.

[SteveS1]

Very interesting reading about all these impressions.  I've had HD800, 800S, Ethers, T1s and somehow always ended up back with my trusty old HD600s.  Trying all these things just made me happier with what I had.  Not often that happens.

[jamesjames]

It's also been very interesting to collect my thoughts sufficiently to write these short notes.  And not just interesting, it seems, but instructive!  Having written them, and read the responses, I was inspired to revisit the Sennheiser, the Meze and the Stax - to test my rather haphazard impressions formed over the last year or so a little more systematically.  I've recently spent much time with the Empyrean, having decided it was worth the effort to get to know it, whereas my thoughts about the Sennheiser and the Stax were, increasingly as time went by, much more distant recollections.  I don't tend to A/B test components, preferring instead to get to know the sound of each on longer exposure, and comparing the longer term experiences.

 

The great surprise to me is how strikingly good the HD800S now seems.  I remembered immediately what always appealed to me - the remarkable texture of sound and brilliant separation of instruments.  And I must confess that the inevitable A/B comparisons have caused me to reconsider my preferences.  The Empyrean no doubt is seductively warm - soothing even - but to my (refreshed) ears it now lacks the texture (or grit) of the conventional dynamic driver in the HD800S.  Combined with crossfeed, I'm struck once again by how natural the HD800S can sound - I'm reminded of my original sense that the timbre of acoustic instruments seems to be its special strength, notwithstanding its lighter presence.  I continue to think the Empyrean offers a lot in terms of high quality non-fatiguing listening, but it's become clear surprisingly quickly that it simply doesn't offer the same interest or insight as the HD800S.  I can only conclude by reflecting on how difficult I've found it over the years to come firm positions on 'what sounds best' - and how often it seems to be necessary (as some others have noted) to experiment with new components to recognise the qualities of older components.  That appears to be the case once again for me with the HD800S.  

[jamesjames]

In an earlier post I mentioned that I find the Moon 430HA to combine very well with the HD800S.  So I thought I should mention that my more recent listening to the SPL Phonitor xe has actually caused me to think the SPL may combine even more happily!  Like the Moon, the SPL incorporates a crossfeed section which is important if, like me, you require crossfeed.  The amps present music in remarkably different ways I think - and each has its attractions.  The Moon seems smoother, presenting an almost cinematic view of the sound-stage with great depth and width.  I think of it as a very sophisticated presentation, full of structure and layering, and full of detail.  The SPL is somehow lighter, more lively.  It also creates a very strong sense of the performance space, but perhaps more visceral - perhaps closer to a live performance.  In technical terms, the very high internal DC voltage of the SPL (+-60V) seems to allow the high impedance HD800S (~300ohms) to perform to its potential in a way that I haven't previously encountered to the same extent.  I've noticed in the past that amps with high voltage power supplies (like some high quality speaker amps) have affected the performance of these phones in characteristic ways, as have some amps with high output impedances (eg, Sennheiser HDV820, ~ 40 ohms, and some speaker amps >100 ohms).  With the SPL, the HD800S really sings apparently without compression into the higher frequencies, and seems to achieve a more effortless lower end extension.  I find the overall effect reminiscent of the best aspects of the earlier HD800 model - which I enjoy.  For me, the HD800S with the SPL delivers the sort of performance promised, but not quite delivered, by the HD800.  This combination strikes me as pushing the limits of what is possible with headphones and the reproduction of acoustic instruments - quite an achievement.

[davide256]

28 minutes ago, jamesjames said:

In an earlier post I mentioned that I find the Moon 430HA to combine very well with the HD800S.  So I thought I should mention that my more recent listening to the SPL Phonitor xe has actually caused me to think the SPL may combine even more happily!  Like the Moon, the SPL incorporates a crossfeed section which is important if, like me, you require crossfeed.  The amps present music in remarkably different ways I think - and each has its attractions.  The Moon seems smoother, presenting an almost cinematic view of the sound-stage with great depth and width.  I think of it as a very sophisticated presentation, full of structure and layering, and full of detail.  The SPL is somehow lighter, more lively.  It also creates a very strong sense of the performance space, but perhaps more visceral - perhaps closer to a live performance.  In technical terms, the very high internal DC voltage of the SPL (+-60V) seems to allow the high impedance HD800S (~300ohms) to perform to its potential in a way that I haven't previously encountered to the same extent.  I've noticed in the past that amps with high voltage power supplies (like some high quality speaker amps) have affected the performance of these phones in characteristic ways, as have some amps with high output impedances (eg, Sennheiser HDV820, ~ 40 ohms, and some speaker amps >100 ohms).  With the SPL, the HD800S really sings apparently without compression into the higher frequencies, and seems to achieve a more effortless lower end extension.  I find the overall effect reminiscent of the best aspects of the earlier HD800 model - which I enjoy.  For me, the HD800S with the SPL delivers the sort of performance promised, but not quite delivered, by the HD800.  This combination strikes me as pushing the limits of what is possible with headphones and the reproduction of acoustic instruments - quite an achievement.

hmm, so you haven't perused the RAAL SR1A reviews? 😉

[jamesjames]

2 hours ago, davide256 said:

hmm, so you haven't perused the RAAL SR1A reviews? 😉

Yes, I have.  The RAAL seems very interesting (although I haven't heard it).  The reviews I've read suggest it polarises opinion.  In that regard, it reminds me of the MySphere (which I have heard, and liked very much).  My current preference for the HD800S shouldn't be taken to mean that I think there's nothing else worthwhile out there - just that, with the right amp, I think it's close to all that one might reasonably hope for in headphones.  And, of course, it reflects my narrow interest in classical music as well as my personal preferences and expectations.  That said, I've come to this position unexpectedly - after living with most of the highly regarded planars (magnetic and electrostatic) and dynamic phones.  I'm venturing an opinion on the basis only that it might be of interest to others without being the last word.

[Summit]

On 1/31/2022 at 3:51 AM, jamesjames said:

Yes, I have.  The RAAL seems very interesting (although I haven't heard it).  The reviews I've read suggest it polarises opinion.  In that regard, it reminds me of the MySphere (which I have heard, and liked very much).  My current preference for the HD800S shouldn't be taken to mean that I think there's nothing else worthwhile out there - just that, with the right amp, I think it's close to all that one might reasonably hope for in headphones.  And, of course, it reflects my narrow interest in classical music as well as my personal preferences and expectations.  That said, I've come to this position unexpectedly - after living with most of the highly regarded planars (magnetic and electrostatic) and dynamic phones.  I'm venturing an opinion on the basis only that it might be of interest to others without being the last word.

 

Yes the amp can really impact big time to how the HD800 sound - from really good to complet crap. Have you listen to Susvara out of a good powerful audio system? 

[jamesjames]

Yes, I have Summit.  I think it sounds very fine.  But, for my money, the HD800S remains the pick of the bunch for classical music.  I really do think anyone who is interested in classical music should give it a go - they might agree with me (and save a lot of money).  I should also say that I've never heard the HD800S sound bad - I guess I would say that the right amp allows it to play to its full potential.

[jamesjames]

12 hours ago, Summit said:

 

Yes the amp can really impact big time to how the HD800 sound - from really good to complet crap. Have you listen to Susvara out of a good powerful audio system? 

One further thought - while I'm not a fan of planar speakers, I do prefer the HE1000SE to the Susvara.  The Susvara seems a bit polite to me in top end.  I wouldn't be surprised to find the HE1000SE is often preferred by those interested in classical music.

[Musicophile]

9 hours ago, jamesjames said:

One further thought - while I'm not a fan of planar speakers, I do prefer the HE1000SE to the Susvara.  The Susvara seems a bit polite to me in top end.  I wouldn't be surprised to find the HE1000SE is often preferred by those interested in classical music.

I still haven't tried the Susvara, it's on my to do list for a tour to my local dealer, but I agree the SE is very good. When I compared directly it I still preferred the Focal Utopia somewhat, but it was a close second.

 

For now, I still haven't jumped from my HD800/HDVA600 combo, as indeed there's some magic for using it in classical music.