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HD800 - where to go next?


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I haven't bought any hifi equipment in ages. 

 

Therefore, I'm toying with the idea of buying another really good headphone, to complement my HD800/HDVA600 combo (I already have a Beyer T90 with a Dragonfly Red as a travel set, remember those days when we used to travel?).

 

So I'd be looking for something that is at least a match to my HD800. I mostly listen to classical and jazz, so quite probably I already have the perfect set of cans for me (unless I win the lottery and buy an Orpheus 2). I really love them.

 

That said, I'm intrigued by getting a somewhat different sound signature, particularly for when I'm listening to anything that is not very well recorded, or venture into other genres, where really the HD800s can start to get annoying quickly.

 

I was initially thinking that I should stay below $2K, but on the other hand there's a lot of stuff happening between $2000 and $5000. Hifiman 1000SE, Meze Empyrian, Grado GS3000, Focal Utopia/Stellia, etc. etc. etc. 

 

Anything you'd recommend I should check out in particular?

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4 minutes ago, jp11801 said:

the HD800 can be very revealing and can have a large to almost artificial headstage. Please don't mistake my comments for thinking the HD 800s aren't good on the contrary they are excellent but offer a more clinical approach to listening. The Utopia while very different and more musical and tonally accurate are still detail monsters but while different may still not offer a good alternative. 

I'd be more apt to recommend the Meze or 1000se as they are more of an enjoyable listen. The Meze is ultimately the more comfortable of the lot and a close cousin to the HD800 level of comfort. The Meze is the most relaxed and diffused of the bunch but offers long enjoyable listening sessions without fatigue . The 1000se charts a path in-between the 800 and Meze with gobs of detail enough bass to make it fun while being realistic and strong comfort. 

Thanks. That’s very helpful. Indeed, “relaxed” isn’t an attribute I’d use to describe the HD800, so that sounds like a great complement. I’ll have to check that out. 

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37 minutes ago, MarkoF said:

Have you considered Stax headphones?

I have their SR-L500 set with the SRM 353X driver/amp which I use this in a home office with Qobuz/Roon. 

I consider the sound to be very good with both classical and jazz - very fast and detailed with a sweet mid-range emphasis.

The phones are very comfortable  - can wear for hours without fatigue - but they are open which may be an issue.

 

Mark

 

 

I’ve quite recently tried them and while I liked the sound, I just didn’t find them very comfortable. Every head is different I presume. 
 

To me the HD800 remain the most comfortable headphones I’ve tried to this day.  

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3 hours ago, WAM said:

Have fun. 

 

But do not forget the amp (a good headphone paired with a good amp is no guarantee for good sound, but you know that already, I presume).

 

Happy listening!

 

 

I'd obviously start with my current solid state HDVA600 (which not surprisingly has a nice synergy with the HD800, particularly on the balanced cables) as a starting point, but I'd be somewhat interested in having a tube based amp as well. But first things first. 

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5 minutes ago, Blake said:

 

 

Looking forward to your reports. 

 

Not to hijack your thread, but the timing of your post coincided with my own headphone mini shootout, between HD800, HD800S and the Empyrean so I am somewhat in your same boat.  I've owned the HD-800 forever, my HD-800S arrived last week and Empyrean will be here next week.

Nice combo. The Empyrean is really looking quite attractive. 
 

Just curious what triggered the HD800 to S upgrade. Is is t worth it?

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1 hour ago, Blake said:

 

Good question.  Long story short- due to COVID my firm's offices are closed so I had to set up a home office.  My wife is also working in the same home office room, so I am now listening to headphones all day.  I love my HD-800, particularly with my Eddie Current ZDS, the combo is spectacular.   The only issue is, listening all day, toward the end of the day I am developing some ear fatigue, notwithstanding that I am listening at low/safe levels.  This was not previously a problem with shorter sessions.  My HD-800 are unmodded, but must be a unicorn because they never gave me ear fatigue before and my sensitivity to treble brightness/glare is extreme (and annoying).  It is only when I started the extended listening sessions that I developed some fatigue.

 

So, I decided to give HD-800S a try.  Additionally, I have always been intrigued by the Empyrean (I have some Meze 99 I enjoy for travel) and from reports, the sound stage is larger and the sound is supposed to be detailed yet non-fatiguing and otherwise forgiving of less than stellar recordings, so I wanted to have all these headphones in at the same time to directly compare them, rather than try to rely on memory. 

 

I will definitely sell either the HD-800 or HD-800S, depending on which one is the winner.  We shall see on the Empyrean.  If I love it, I will need to decide if I want to have two desktop headphones and rotate them.  I can't imagine not having an HD-800/S though.

Please share your experience. I’ll give the Meze a go this weekend at my dealer. He also has some other high end stuff so I’ll see what works. 

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2 hours ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

Thank you for a nice report! Hope you will find a pair of headphones which will suit your various requirements in a best way possible. Just remember (and this is what I would tell to myself in a similar situation as well) – pick those in which you like music and not the sound most :-)

That’s exactly it. When I was noticing that I was tapping my foot to the rhythm I knew I had found my dream pair. 

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15 minutes ago, ecwl said:

I think the upgrade game is very dangerous. Good thing you also didn’t try the Chord DAVE.

 

I had at my work office a Chord Mojo and Sennheiser HD280Pro. I ended up upgrading to Aeon Flow Closed at work. And because I’m used to listening to DAVE & Focal Utopia at home, I ended up upgrading the Mojo to a Hugo 2. And just the past two weeks, having read enough from Mitch Barrett and our great leader Chris Connaker about convolution filters for room correction, I just blew a few hundred bucks on Acourate and after a lot of fiddling and listening got a filter that I’m happy with.

 

The upgrade game is never ending. I think at some point, as Jim Smith said in his book Get Better Sound, it’s just a matter of having a road map as to what upgrades you’re looking for and then deciding whether that’s the path you want to follow.

 

Regardless of your decision, I’m sure you’ll still enjoy great music. In fact, you inspired me to listen to the last movement of Mahler Symphony No. 1 - Claudio Abbado conducting the Chicago Symphony Orchestra.

The good news is that at least once I get to the Utopias you could pretty much call that end game. It’s going to be very tough to “up”grade from that level. 
 

And after all, I chose my avatar for a reason, I’m more of a musicophile than an audiophile in the first place. Gear will always (or mostly) just be a means to an end. Which is spending even more money on music. 

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2 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

It's fascinating how personal headphone preferences can be! Coming from the HD800, I was addicted to the spacious soundstage, and I found the Utopia to be very closed in, especially on a big Mahler symphony.

 

Were all these 'phones well burned in? The Empyrean especially can initially sound rather unresolving, but really open up after 100-200 hours.

For the Meze I assume yes as it was their regular demo model. Same for the Utopia. The HifiMan was still in a box so that may have been used less. 
 

In any case let’s not forget headphones are even more personal choices than speakers as the fit with your ears and head comes into play. The Utopias were by far the most comfortable for my head. That’s at least 30% of my rating as I love the comfort of my HD800 and can wear them for hours. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...
10 hours ago, Miska said:

I have now two office desktop headphone systems:

- Holo Audio Spring DAC + Schiit Jotunheim + HD800

- T+A HA 200 + Solitaire

 

Latter one is now my reference system. Sort of my everyday go-to tools.

 

Wow, the HA200 looks really cool. Love the VU meters. I must admit I wasn't always a big fan of T+A design in the past, but I could see myself buying this (if I get my head around the price).

 

 

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18 hours ago, Blake said:

I am still in the middle of my headphone trials.  The Empyrean, HD800 and HD800S all have their own charm.  I just love the "out of the head" presentation of the HD800/S, although the Empyrean head stage is no slouch.  I am surprised how different the HD800 and HD800S sound from each other.

 

The HD800S is comparatively warmer sounding than the HD800 and is certainly more forgiving of poor recordings.  The HD800 have more sparkle and sounds/instruments are more clearly dissected than with the HD800S and the HD800 bass hits a bit harder than HD800S.  The Empyrean is just a great all-rounder that is hard to fault and is also more forgiving of bad recordings than the HD800.

 

Right now it is a tie between Empyrean and HD800S.  If the vast majority of my music was well-recorded, my un-modded HD800 would possibly replace the HD800S on the list.

 

Comfort wise, the HD800/S is still the king, but the Empyreans are close.

 

I wanted to end up with just one headphone, but I am tempted to keep the Empyrean and one of either the HD800S or HD800.  One thing is certain- I remain very impressed with the good old HD800 and it can still compete after all these years.  I have also decided that I cannot live with a headphone with a smaller/more intimate head stage so that crosses off the Utopia as an option (the driver failure rate is also disconcerting).  If Focal ever comes out with a Utopia-level option with a more open head stage, I would give it a try.  ZMF Verite Open is also somewhat intriguing, but I am at a point with these 3 headphones that I don't have much interest in any other headphones.

 

 

 

 

Comp1.jpg

I agree with @Summit below, check out the Hifiman 1000SE if you can before you settle on the Empyrean. May just be the right compromise you're looking for. It was a very close second for me to the Utopia. 

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22 minutes ago, Blake said:

Ok @Musicophile and @Summit I did a bit of research and I am taking your advice.  I just purchased a used pair of Hifiman 1000SE.  

 

I got them at a good price so if I don't end up preferring them, I can sell them for at or close to what I paid.  

 

 

Wow, that was quick. Very curious to hear your verdict and comparison vs. Meze.

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18 hours ago, Blake said:

My HE1000SE's arrived today. 

 

While I could very happily live with Empyrean, HD800 or HD800S, the HE1000SE's are the headphones for me.  The Empyrean should not be discounted though, they are amazing and have a great, lush and forgiving sound while still being very detailed.

 

I could see others having a different viewpoint based upon individual preferences but for me, I very quickly determined they are the winner.  I knew it after only a couple of songs.  This is the sound presentation I have been searching for, I just didn't know it until I tried them.  Where have you been all my life? :)

 

Thanks for the recommendations!  My search is over.  

 

 

HEK.jpg

Glad it worked out for you. As mentioned I was also truly impressed by the 1000SE. For me it is a very close 2nd favorite after the Utopia's. 

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  • 1 year later...
9 hours ago, jamesjames said:

One further thought - while I'm not a fan of planar speakers, I do prefer the HE1000SE to the Susvara.  The Susvara seems a bit polite to me in top end.  I wouldn't be surprised to find the HE1000SE is often preferred by those interested in classical music.

I still haven't tried the Susvara, it's on my to do list for a tour to my local dealer, but I agree the SE is very good. When I compared directly it I still preferred the Focal Utopia somewhat, but it was a close second.

 

For now, I still haven't jumped from my HD800/HDVA600 combo, as indeed there's some magic for using it in classical music. 

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26 minutes ago, jamesjames said:

Yes, I agree your combo is hard to beat.  I would have continued to use my HDV820 amp (I haven't sold it!) had I not been won over by crossfeed.  My experiments with the Moon, SPL and iFi amps have really been efforts to find something with crossfeed that's competitive.  In light of several years' listening now to the Moon (less with the SPL Phonitor and less again with the iFi Pro iCan/iFi Pro iESL), I can say I still prefer the HD800S/HDV820 combo if I'm not using crossfeed.  But I have to say I now see crossfeed as necessary - and differences between phones like the HD800/S, HE1000SE, SR-009/S are less important to me than crossfeed - I think I would prefer any of them with crossfeed over any of the others w/o.  It's not a subtle effect, and it makes phones less like phones and more like the real world I think.  The performance space emerges in a way that's otherwise only hinted at.  Digital crossfeed may one day be as convincing - but not yet I think (although I haven't heard the latest efforts from dCS or Weiss).

 

One other thought re MySphere, RAAL and the like phones (mentioned above in this context).  Whatever their strengths, I find there's a very high price to pay in terms of use.  I haven't used the RAAL, but suspect they might share some of the qualities of the MySphere and K1000, which I think may have a high monitoring value but (in my view) lower domestic value.  A simple thing like keeping it on your head, for example, can become a major issue!  (I recently read a very amusing post by the Audiophile Skunk on the dilemmas presented by phones like these - it's still up I think.)

Sounds like I should give crossfeed a try.

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5 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

This is very true, these days more than ever before. The quality of TOTL headphones has reached a level where it becomes a matter of matching your personal preferences and head geometry to the headphones. 

 

You went about it in a thoughtful manner, and I am sure the Utopia will delight you. They're great headphones.

 

As a teaser, I'm concluding the listening for my upcoming review of electrostatic headphones. All I will say is that these are sublime, but the price of entry is very high, both in terms of the headphones and the necessary amplification.

I'll have to wait until that review then before I pull the trigger just to be safe :-)

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8 hours ago, jamesjames said:

For what it's worth, I'm inclined to agree individual preferences and characteristics are very important - more important I think than many audiophiles would like to admit.  Your thought that you might prefer dynamic phones certainly strikes a chord with me - I certainly do.  I can also understand your reaction to the Utopia.  I used it extensively over a couple of years before coming back to the HD800S for its magical way with performance space - but the Utopia is very seductive I think.  I wonder in retrospect whether the Phonitor amp I mentioned above (which I didn't own at the time) might have been an even better match for the Utopia.  It conveys a sense of tremendous space and air, which might work very well.  It also has crossfeed of course ...

That reminds me, I saw that the Chord Dave I used for the listening comparison at my dealer at a crossfeed feature as well. I wanted to try it out but then got so immersed into the headphone comparison that I forgot about it. Need to find an SPL dealer near me. 

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3 hours ago, jamesjames said:

I've done some more A/B testing between the Moon, the SPL and the Sennheiser HDV820 over the last few days.  And I must say I'm increasingly sure that I prefer the Moon.  It really has been an interesting process.  In short, I think the Moon and the Sennheiser offer tremendously refined sound, by which I mean quite natural to my ear, with a tendency to create a three-dimensional performance space even w/o crossfeed.  They are both better in that sense to my ear than the SPL and the iFi Pro iCan.  The Sennheiser is so good even w/o crossfeed that I would use it in preference to the iFi (which offers crossfeed and is still a very appealing amp I think).  I would choose the SPL over the Sennheiser simply because it has crossfeed - recognising it doesn't have quite the refinement of the Sennheiser.  I find w/o crossfeed that the Moon and the Sennheiser offer equally appealing - although different - presentation (the Sennheiser is probably more 'colourful').  But, with crossfeed, the Moon is clearly more appealing to me.  Of course, this was all done using my HD800S phones - so there's a question whether I would come to the same conclusions using the Utopia.  Based on my recollection of the Utopia (always dangerous!), I think I would probably still prefer the Moon over the SPL.  I guess output impedance (Moon 1.25 ohms, SPL less than 1 ohm) would not affect the issue (Utopia ~100 ohms).  And both amps are so good that I have no real doubt the Utopia's inherent character would emerge unscathed.  I hope this is of some interest if you continue to look into crossfeed.

Regards

James

Thanks. I think I’ll start out partnering the Utopia with my existing HDVA600 as a starting point. May not be the perfect combo but should at least do the job, particularly on the symmetrical out. Then I’ll investigate further into amps as the perfect match for the Focals. Crossfeed is clearly one avenue I need to check out, but I must admit I’m also somewhat tempted to see what tube stuff is out there. Yet another rabbit hole to go down. 

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