eRED-DOCK

[Topk]

On 10/14/2020 at 7:42 PM, al2813 said:

Hi, has anyone compared the ERED-DOC to Allo's players USBridge or Digione signature ? I listened over the weekend to the Wattson Emerson and in my setup it sounded a notch up compared to the USBridge signature I have. 

Yes I did the comparison with the Emerson, and there’s no comparison, regardless of the software used on the Allo (I even tried advanced PCP based customized/optimized software for low latency with overclocking etc) or the power supply.
 

Then the gap increases once the Emerson is well fed with 5V linear power supply and clean Ethernet. If it doesn’t  sound good enough, the issue has to be fixed somewhere else.

[Topk]

On 1/24/2021 at 3:49 PM, granosalis said:

Thr 1.37 is the lates firmware and unfortunatelly Roon is not supported. This is really annoying.

What could we do to make ourselves heard, to trust a petition?

The Emerson digital is now a certified Roon endpoint. It appears in Roon and of course has the purple light (as a RAAT device)

[barrows]

I would note that Wattson Audio brand is made by the same company (EngineeRed) as  the eRed Dock.  Additionally, there is nothing int he specifications of the Emerson Digital which suggest that its performance would be any different at to that of the eRed Dock, all this information is available at the EngineeRed/Wattson websites, including detailed phase noise specifications for the clocks used on the eRed Dock.   Of course this is a good thing, as the eRed Dock offers exceptional performance when powered by a good power supply.  I would expect identical performance from these two products given the same power supply: the difference being that the Emerson is a finished, boxed, consumer component, and the eRed Dock is a board designed for OEM and hobbyist DIY use-both products have their place.  Of course the eRed Dock also has direct I2S output available which enables higher sample rates: up to PCM 384 and DSD 256, while the SPDIF and AES outputs are limited to 192 PCM and DSD 64.  

[Topk]

4 hours ago, barrows said:

I would note that Wattson Audio brand is made by the same company (EngineeRed) as  the eRed Dock.  Additionally, there is nothing int he specifications of the Emerson Digital which suggest that its performance would be any different at to that of the eRed Dock, all this information is available at the EngineeRed/Wattson websites, including detailed phase noise specifications for the clocks used on the eRed Dock.   Of course this is a good thing, as the eRed Dock offers exceptional performance when powered by a good power supply.  I would expect identical performance from these two products given the same power supply: the difference being that the Emerson is a finished, boxed, consumer component, and the eRed Dock is a board designed for OEM and hobbyist DIY use-both products have their place.  Of course the eRed Dock also has direct I2S output available which enables higher sample rates: up to PCM 384 and DSD 256, while the SPDIF and AES outputs are limited to 192 PCM and DSD 64.  

I don’t disagree on paper, however I checked with Engineered and the reply comes directly from the company when it comes to improvements between the Engineered card and the Emerson digital. This has then been confirmed by 1 forumer in France who tried both devices (albeit by memory since he didn’t have both at the same time). I tried only the Emerson digital.

[Topk]

Just to clarify, I assume components were upgraded or the circuit layout has been optimized and it doesn’t show in the specs...

 

Another difference is that the mobile app works only with the Emerson.

 

One major hack that I didn’t try and that some people tried in France is to output the AES into the SPDIF input of the DAC.
 

The AES output voltage is significantly higher than the SPDIF output however most DACs won’t care.

 

That seems to improve dynamics and lower noise floor dramatically for an improvement of up to 30-40% subjectively - however there’s no consensus so it might be DAC dependent.

 

That’s easy to do. And using short distance, the 75 ohm of SPDIF vs 110 ohm of AES doesn’t seem to matter.

 

With the engineered card all you need is to wire accordingly and try... if someone does try, I would be very interested to know :-)

 

For Emerson owners, I guess you would need some kind of XLR to RCA/SPDIF cable

[barrows]

5 hours ago, Topk said:

Just to clarify, I assume components were upgraded or the circuit layout has been optimized and it doesn’t show in the specs...

Clocks are the same (at least they have the same phase noise spec, the eRed clocks are already very good parts), so are the output transformers for SPDIF and AES, processor daughter board is the same.  Given the specs (192 sample rate limit), I would assume that the SPDIF interface chip is the same (already class leading) part as used on the eRed Dock.  The eRed dock already has optimized power distribution and regulators, so they are almost certainly the same as well.  As for "circuit optimization" the only differences which are visible in the photos of the main board are that the SPDIF and AES output jacks are mounted directly to the board, this allows for easy manufacturing: slide the board into the box and close the box and you are done.  As mentioned the other difference is that there is no header for I2S output and interfacing with (for example) a DAC by an OEM customer-this could be considered "circuit optimization" as well.  But there is nothing here that would suggest any difference in performance.  If people are hearing a difference, perhaps they should investigate the way they wired up the output jacks, as this is the only thing which would make a difference here.

Suggesting that the Emerson has better clocks, or other better parts, versus the eRed Dock is misleading, and has not been confirmed by EngineeRed.  The board has different layout to suit the enclosure, and is simplified a bit, that is all.  Of course it also has Roon Ready Certification, so that could be functional difference with meaning to a user.  I am certain the Emerson is a great finished product, just as the eRed Dock is a great Network audio board for DIY users for integration into DACs, stand alone use, or use by OEMs-indeed they are different "products" but suggesting they actually offer significantly different levels of performance is not supported by any technical differences between them.

[Topk]

8 hours ago, barrows said:

Clocks are the same (at least they have the same phase noise spec, the eRed clocks are already very good parts), so are the output transformers for SPDIF and AES, processor daughter board is the same.  Given the specs (192 sample rate limit), I would assume that the SPDIF interface chip is the same (already class leading) part as used on the eRed Dock.  The eRed dock already has optimized power distribution and regulators, so they are almost certainly the same as well.  As for "circuit optimization" the only differences which are visible in the photos of the main board are that the SPDIF and AES output jacks are mounted directly to the board, this allows for easy manufacturing: slide the board into the box and close the box and you are done.  As mentioned the other difference is that there is no header for I2S output and interfacing with (for example) a DAC by an OEM customer-this could be considered "circuit optimization" as well.  But there is nothing here that would suggest any difference in performance.  If people are hearing a difference, perhaps they should investigate the way they wired up the output jacks, as this is the only thing which would make a difference here.

Suggesting that the Emerson has better clocks, or other better parts, versus the eRed Dock is misleading, and has not been confirmed by EngineeRed.  The board has different layout to suit the enclosure, and is simplified a bit, that is all.  Of course it also has Roon Ready Certification, so that could be functional difference with meaning to a user.  I am certain the Emerson is a great finished product, just as the eRed Dock is a great Network audio board for DIY users for integration into DACs, stand alone use, or use by OEMs-indeed they are different "products" but suggesting they actually offer significantly different levels of performance is not supported by any technical differences between them.

Engineered confirmed those changes.... in fact I asked them this exact question before buying. That’s how I know... not trying to argue in any way, but maybe you can send Engineered an email to confirm. Because what I wrote about those 2 device differences is simply a copy paste from the email I got from Engineered!

 

Engineered card is really great on its own, not debating that, and even better value for money than the Emerson, since I agree they must be pretty close, but it’s targeted to a DYI audience. Doesn’t  diminish the merits of the Engineered card in any way.

[matthias]

On 2/10/2021 at 8:01 PM, Topk said:

I also found out that the Emerson is an OEM to the best hifi brands in the world like CH precision, Dartzeel, Audiomat.

 

Feel free to ask me questions! 

 

I would like to know which board do get CH Precision, Dartzeel and Audiomat.

I assume they all need I2S connectivity and possibly one with at least the specs of the Emerson board.

(BTW, I think it is a pity that Emerson does not provide I2S)

Can you shed some light on this?

Thanks

 

Matt

[barrows]

On 2/11/2021 at 2:29 AM, Topk said:

Just to clarify, I assume components were upgraded or the circuit layout has been optimized and it doesn’t show in the specs...

Ummm, you assume this or EngineeRed told you this.  Again, the clocks have the same specification for phase noise, so it would make no sense that they are different.  The layout is different, to suit the small chassis and the PCB mount connectors, and the lack of I2S output, this makes the Emerson more affordable to produce (by virtue of less features and board mount jacks).

 

Everybody, note that Wattson and EngineeRed are the same company, Wattson is EngineeRed's brand for finished products, and EngineeRed is the parent company which provides boards, software, and design consulting to OEM customers, like CH Precision, etc.  They have a few different options for that use: the complete eRed Dock, the smaller eRed-Mod which is the processor daughter board with memory used not eh eRed dock, or custom implementations which can eb done by consultation.  The Emerson board would not make sense for OEMs wanting to add Ethernet to a DAC because it has board mounted jacks and no I2S output for the DAC.  If an OEM wants to provide their own clock implementation, then that OEM woudl be smart to just use the eRed-Mod, and develop their own motherboard for it, with the clocking, power management circuits, any re-clocking elements and isolation they might want to add.

 

BTW, the EngineeRed guys are not new, they have been experts at various facets of digital audio, and especially providing sophisticated oversampling algorithms and hardware through their former company.  Their former company also provided DAC architecture to some very high end European brands (like Vitus) quite a few years ago-they do superb engineering. 

[Topk]

12 hours ago, matthias said:

 

I would like to know which board do get CH Precision, Dartzeel and Audiomat.

I assume they all need I2S connectivity and possibly one with at least the specs of the Emerson board.

(BTW, I think it is a pity that Emerson does not provide I2S)

Can you shed some light on this?

Thanks

 

Matt

This is what I found out: look at this Ethernet  board upgrade for the 30+ KUSD CH precision C1 DAC (the reference DAC for this prominent reviewer by the way), review and photos (and look at the price of the board)

https://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/digital-reviews/network-player-reviews/ch-precision-ethernet-in-hd-board-upgrade/

 

And then look at the ered dock PCB:

https://www.engineered.ch/products/ered-dock/

And the Emerson digital PCB:

https://audioconcept.se/produkt/emerson-streamer/

 

So behind all those products, there’s a lot of similarities and know-how by a seasoned OEM.

 

For those who understand Chinese (I don’t... you can see the same links that I provided in the video)

Again, I’m not comparing these products to a Taiko Extreme but I do believe that they provide outstanding value for money, and should be better known and understood vs. many more known/better advertised options that, for some, might have a lower level of engineering and pedigree.

[Kimon]

Well my english is bad, so that will be short:

In AUDIOMAT the ered-mod is integrated with optimized alimentations, clocks (and perhaps more than that). So it's difficult to compare with emerson digital.

I agree with Barrows about the products similarities and i think that well skilled DIYers are able to obtain excellents results with ered-mods or ered-docks.

The Audiomat technology owner told me a year and a half ago that he didnt want to send his dacs to Roon to obtain certification, so i had hope that Engineered would do the job for him.

Next week i'll try again to obtain results with squeeze2upnp ( v1.49.4 now).

But i got the lesson : i have no time no tinker so no more Engineered nor Audiomat for me, next dac will be Roon Ready with integrated streamer.

 

[jventer]

I found a review which is not complimentary of the Emerson: https://www.alpha-audio.nl/review/review-wattson-audio-emerson-digital-en-analog-met-samples/

In this case I am quite surprised: the Analog not much better than a Bluesound Node?

and in this case the Digital comparable to the Metrum Ambre (but then the latter has more outputs)

I do not understand Chinese, so cannot comment on that.

It would be good to get more reviews out there. 

[jventer]

And here is a less critical review (not a giant killer yet?)

https://cheaptubeaudio.blogspot.com/2021/02/wattson-audio-emerson-analog-streamer.html

[matthias]

3 hours ago, Topk said:

This is what I found out: look at this Ethernet  board upgrade for the 30+ KUSD CH precision C1 DAC (the reference DAC for this prominent reviewer by the way), review and photos (and look at the price of the board)

https://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/digital-reviews/network-player-reviews/ch-precision-ethernet-in-hd-board-upgrade/

 

Thanks for the pictures.

CH Precision seem to use the eRED-MOD only and not the complete eRED solution. So the complete CH Precision ethernet board might be much superior to the Wattson Emerson.

Maybe someone can feed CH Precision C1 with the AES output of Wattson Emerson and compare to the Ethernet input of CH.

 

Matt

[Topk]

2 hours ago, jventer said:

I found a review which is not complimentary of the Emerson: https://www.alpha-audio.nl/review/review-wattson-audio-emerson-digital-en-analog-met-samples/

In this case I am quite surprised: the Analog not much better than a Bluesound Node?

and in this case the Digital comparable to the Metrum Ambre (but then the latter has more outputs)

I do not understand Chinese, so cannot comment on that.

It would be good to get more reviews out there. 

Actually there are many reviews on the French forums. This is some of those I recall:

 

- 3 forumers in France have directly compared the Metrum Ambre to Emerson digital and they all chose the Emerson. 2 of them sold the Ambre to buy the Emerson. 

- another one compared with Innuos zenith Mkiii (both the engineered and the Emerson digital) and said the Emerson and the Innuos are on a similar level, much to his surprise. He also said the Engineered is just a touch below. He’s probably the only one who has both the engineered and the Emerson.

 

- Another forumer with a full Audio Note system compared with Naim NDX2 and sold it, to replace with the Emerson digital.

 

Also, Alpha audio and Metrum are both Dutch based. They also used Airplay for the Emerson for their test, not Roon etc which is a major flaw in their test when they compare with the Metrum. Apples to oranges.

 

Also I’m only referring to Emerson digital. Analogue is a different product altogether which I didn’t personally try and cannot comment. Not much on this particular product on the forums either.

 

 By the way I’m able to beat the Emerson with my PC streamer and  USB, but need a lot of devices and cables to do so.

[matthias]

30 minutes ago, Topk said:

By the way I’m able to beat the Emerson with my PC streamer and  USB, but need a lot of devices and cables to do so.

 

Please, can you disclose your set-up with USB to have some data point as reference.

Thank you.

 

Matt

[Topk]

36 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

Please, can you disclose your set-up with USB to have some data point as reference.

Thank you.

 

Matt

Of course

 

Dedicated audio PC with Audivarna, process lasso and Jplay Femto based on fanless Intel i7 4790k

Ubiquiti edge router with LPS

Jcat Ethernet isolator

Good ethernet cables with copper shielding etc

Elfidelity PCie purifier x3

Elfidelity USB or Jcat Femto USB with LPS

Uptone USB Isoregen with LPS

Oyaide continental 5S USB cable

Gustard U16 digital converter

Good SPDIF cables 

Good power cables (Oyaide or Furutech plugs etc)

Various DACs including ESS, AKM, Aqua La Voce S2 with TDA1541, PCM1704K..etc - the Aqua is for sale :-)

PS audio Dectet

McIntosh amp and Harbeth speakers 

 

 

[jventer]

7 hours ago, Topk said:

Actually there are many reviews on the French forums.

Thanks 

I will go and see what I can find.

[Topk]

2 hours ago, jventer said:

Thanks 

I will go and see what I can find.

here it is :-)

 

http://forum-hifi.fr/thread-18953.html

 

http://forum-hifi.fr/thread-19594.html

 

http://forum-hifi.fr/thread-102-page-45.html
 

 

[Topk]

Found another review (in French)

 

https://audiophilefr.com/wattson-audio-emerson-analog.html

[Topk]

1) Also found this explanation between the Emerson analog and the digital from the manufacturer:

”The streaming part is perfectly identical for the two models. The ANALOG version effectively integrates the DAC, the output stage and the dedicated power supplies for the analog section. The DIGITAL model, on the other hand, integrates two SPDIF / AES encoders, synchronization circuits (everything is reclocked  at the drivers), output drivers and high-end isolation transformers (probably the best there is, also used on the most expensive devices on the market). In the end, DIGITAL costs us a little more to manufacture than ANALOG.”

 

2) If you look at the third French forum link I provided above, a listening session was made with a few French forumers between the Engineered card (well implemented in a PC with a Sean Jacob custom power supply and supermicro MB), and the consensus was it easily beat a $25K APL digital transport upon direct comparison in a pretty high end system. FYI, the $50K APL DAC is the one chosen by Marcin from JCAT after he tested countless others.

 

3) A forumer noted that the Emerson digital has a higher power consumption than the engineered card (I think about double but don’t quote me on that), indicating some design differences.

 

4) One last comment on the Alpha review:

- Emerson digital broadcasting on Airplay (!) compared with Metrum ambre on Roon (Emerson was not yet Roon certified back then)

- Roon is running on a core (PC). If Emerson is used on a Roon Core as a Roon endpoint, some portions of the device related to decoding are bypassed since they’re driven by the Core, and generally speaking the PC as a music server brings a lot of horsepower to the Endpoint

- Metrum DAC + Metrum Ambre hence some potential system synergies

- Dutch reviewer and Dutch manufacturer... it’s  like when “what hifi” reviewing Chord, Naim, Kef, Rega, Cambridge audio vs the rest :-) ... just check the country origin of the WHF products of the year... pretty much all UK

- Emerson connected in AES, Metrum connected in their proprietary/optimized I2S

- A bit confusing in the review when they switch from review about digital or analog product, 2 different products

 

[matthias]

1 hour ago, Topk said:

If you look at the third French forum link I provided above, a listening session was made with a few French forumers between the Engineered card (well implemented in a PC with a Sean Jacob custom power supply and supermicro MB), and the consensus was it easily beat a $25K APL digital transport upon direct comparison in a pretty high end system.

 

If you mean the APL streamer it is based on Auralic tech but with APL LPSs. So it is not hard to imagine that the Engineered card plus SJ PS is superior.

 

Matt

[Topk]

7 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

If you mean the APL streamer it is based on Auralic tech but with APL LPSs. So it is not hard to imagine that the Engineered card plus SJ PS is superior.

 

Matt

Makes sense. That’s another good data point.

[misterspense]

What are you powering your eRed docks with? Does it respond well to a better powersupply?

On the board there is some conversion from 5V to 3.3V. So I wonder if a higher quality 5V PSU makes sense or adds enough, when the board itself again brings it down to 3.3V.

I've build it into the case of a SoTM SMS-100, the SoTM died on me after all those years. It has a switching DC converter with buffering, and outputs 5V, that is connected to the eRed board. Input can accept approx. 7V to 12V without problem. In this case I don't hear a lot of differences between PSU's.

[Topk]

On 2/26/2021 at 12:47 PM, misterspense said:

What are you powering your eRed docks with? Does it respond well to a better powersupply?

On the board there is some conversion from 5V to 3.3V. So I wonder if a higher quality 5V PSU makes sense or adds enough, when the board itself again brings it down to 3.3V.

I've build it into the case of a SoTM SMS-100, the SoTM died on me after all those years. It has a switching DC converter with buffering, and outputs 5V, that is connected to the eRed board. Input can accept approx. 7V to 12V without problem. In this case I don't hear a lot of differences between PSU's.

I powered it with a very good DYI ultra capacitor 5V and yes, there’s a significant improvement in sound vs the stock power switching supply. But some people prefer the sound of the stock power supply so it’s a matter of taste and system synergy as well.