Melco S100 Ethernet Switch Measurements

[jabbr]

1 minute ago, MarkusBarkus said:

One of the primary issues was related to stacking tolerances. Individual pieces were quite precise, but their lack of knowledge caused them to miss the tolerance outcome when the pieces were assembled. Oops.

 

And no excuses for that other than hubris, BTW.
 

I recognize this is a little adjacent to your point, but it makes me want to leave the door ajar for well meaning manufacturers who may feel there is no way they can *predict" what impact every possible combination could create. 
 

I'm not defending anyone, or tolerating sloppy design, just leaving the door open a

bit.

 

 

Right, that's why the newer network standards not only specify things like SFP+ modules but *end to end* jitter, precisely so you *can* mix and match different switches and NICs and SFP(+) modules and it just works. Of course if a piece of equipment is not compliant or faulty or otherwise defective it won't work, and there are always little gotchas, but the very strict compliance testing was designed a long time ago precisely to avoid your old company's problem...

 

Isn't it miraculous that the Internet works!!! Lots of brilliant folks have been working on this.

[R1200CL]

11 minutes ago, jabbr said:

First, the SFP module on the switch need not be identical to that on the opticalRendu.

This is important information. I always assumed they had to be identical. 
So then I can have SFP one end and SFP+ or SFP28 other end. 
 

Still I’m missing suggestions for one SFP+ / SFP28 that matches the suggestion below. 

4 hours ago, plissken said:

The 2960 is 1GB only and the FS.COM module for SX OM2 LC MM Fiber (Orange cable) is $6.

 

[jabbr]

7 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

This is important information. I always assumed they had to be equal. 
 

Still I’m missing suggestions for one SFP+ / SFP28 that matches the suggestion below. 

 

This switch: https://www.servethehome.com/mikrotik-crs305-1g-4sin-review-4-port-must-have-10gbe-switch/

 

Single mode or multimode (need both on same end of link)

 

get 2 cisco SFP modules, stick one in the Mikrotik and another into the opticalRendu

 

.... that's the simple answer for a 10Gbe capable switch

 

I have also used Finisar 10/1 Gbe dual speed SFP(+) modules as well as Mellanox multispeed SFP28 with Mellanox NIC and several QSFP28 modules in Mellanox SN2700 switch

 

I am sure the "Optical Networking and SFP" thread has these details

[firedog]

24 minutes ago, MarkusBarkus said:

I recognize this is a little adjacent to your point, but it makes me want to leave the door ajar for well meaning manufacturers who may feel there is no way they can *predict" what impact every possible combination could create

They don't need to predict what you are talking about. They are claiming if you put such a device inline it improves the output of DACs. The marketing implies it works for all or almost all DACs/setups. That's their "prediction". 

 

So they should measure some commonly sold DACs at different price levels in typical setups and show us the improved results, if they exist. 

[plissken]

10 minutes ago, jabbr said:

I am sure the "Optical Networking and SFP" thread has these details

 

Certainly not wanting to re-create that thread here. Suffice it to say you can use OM2/OM3/OM4/OM5 cabling with the $6 SX module.

 

OM cabling is Multi-Mode

OS cabling is Single-Mode

[plissken]

2 minutes ago, firedog said:

So they should measure some commonly sold DACs at different price levels in typical setups and show us the improved results, if they exist. 

 

I've asked for what exact setup that I can recreate to hear these magical differences.

 

So baring getting 0 reply (is it really that tough of a response?) I simply have to assume that a product with only 3 returns ever (me being one of them) have to assume it's any setup.

 

But now when it comes to ANY setup, mine in particular, I get a manufacturer that whilst they show total ignorance of my DAC's capabilities, have the technical chops to call it garbage. Hence my asking what do I need to obtain... So they can comment on what I have not being resolving enough, but they can't comment on what I should purchase to experience this 'magic'.

 

I find it surreal.

[Superdad]

17 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

This is important information. I always assumed they had to be identical. 
So then I can have SFP one end and SFP+ or SFP28 other end. 

 

Since the others here seem not to have stated it plainly enough to avoid confusing you, I’ll take a crack at it:

 

While one can order special dual-rate SFP+ modules that will work at 1 Gigabit in a standard SFP port, standard SFP+ transceivers are 10Gbe (or higher) and will not negotiate down when plugged into a 1Gbe SFP port.

However, one can use 1Gbe transceivers in SFP+ ports.

 

So the obvious and reasonable question still remains:

If you buy two of the special type, specifically dual-rate SFP+ transceivers and install one in a 1Gbps-only SFP cage (of say, your opticalRendu or EtherREGEN) and install the other in either:

a) the SFP+ cage of a 10Gbps switch;

or

b) the SFP cage of a 1Gigabit switch,

will the pairing properly negotiate down to 1Gbps?

 

I suspect yes for b), but am not sure about a).

 

[jabbr]

2 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Since the others here seem not to have stated it plainly enough to avoid confusing you, I’ll take a crack at it:

 

While one can order special dual-rate SFP+ modules that will work at 1 Gigabit in a standard SFP port, standard SFP+ transceivers are 10Gbe (or higher) and will not negotiate down when plugged into a 1Gbe SFP port.

However, one can use 1Gbe transceivers in SFP+ ports.

 

So the obvious and reasonable question still remains:

If you buy two of the special type, specifically dual-rate SFP+ transceivers and install one in a 1Gbps-only SFP cage (of say, your opticalRendu or EtherREGEN) and install the other in either:

Yeah this is confusion, let me clarify:

 

Don't do this. Don't put a dual rate 10/1 SFP(+) module into an SFP port.

 

Put an SFP module into the SFP port

2 minutes ago, Superdad said:

a) the SFP+ cage of a 10Gbps switch;

 

Do this: put the dual rate 10/1 SFP(+) module into the SFP(+) port 

Do this: put a 1Gbe SFP module into an SFP(+) port

 

2 minutes ago, Superdad said:

or

b) the SFP cage of a 1Gigabit switch,

will the pairing properly negotiate down to 1Gbps?

 

Don't do this.

 

2 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

I suspect yes for b), but am not sure about a).

 

 

yes for a) ... don't do b)

[R1200CL]

39 minutes ago, jabbr said:

get 2 cisco SFP modules, stick one in the Mikrotik and another into the opticalRendu

So still no SFP+ that’s support both 10GB as well as 1GB then. I suppose not important. 
 

So then if using  a 1GB SFP module, I won’t have more jitter compared to using a 10GB SFP+ module?

It’s crucial that the SFP module won’t degrade the quality of the switch. 

As the idea is of cause to see if this switch could be equal to etherRegen. 

 

And how about using this module?

https://mikrotik.com/product/S-RJ01
Still no jitter at 100GB. (Yes, I could used it against etherRegen B side😀)

 

Edit

Seems some of my questions has been answered while typing. 
Thanks for finally getting to the point.  (Almost). 

 

[jabbr]

4 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

So still no SFP+ that’s support both 10GB as well as 1GB then. I suppose not important. 

 

I'm trying to help, read this:

https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/610/finisar_ftlx8574d3bcv_1g-10g_850nm_multimode_datac-1530955.pdf

 

4 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

So then if using  a 1GB SFP module, I won’t have more jitter compared to using a 10GB SFP+ module?

It’s crucial that the SFP module won’t degrade the quality of the switch. 

 

The "Optical Networking and SFP" thread extensively discusses the differences between SFP(+) modules

 

4 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

As the idea is of cause to see if this switch could be equal to etherRegen. 

 

Equal in what way? Its a 10Gbe switch

 

4 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

 

And how about using this module?

https://mikrotik.com/product/S-RJ01
Still no jitter at 100GB. (Yes, I could used it against etherRegen B side😀)

 

That is a module that allows you to use a copper RJ45 cable with the switch. You can make this as combinometrically complex as you like.

[R1200CL]

27 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Do this: put the dual rate 10/1 SFP(+) module into the SFP(+) port 

Just to be 100% sure.

I can’t then at the same time use a normal SFP 1G in the other end (opticalRendu/etherRegen) ?

So one end (obviously the switch)  dual rate 10/1 SFP(+) module. Other end normal SFP model like we use today in our JohnS design. 
 

A no go, og good to go ?

 

[plissken]

57 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Just to be 100% sure.

I can’t then at the same time use a normal SFP 1G in the other end (opticalRendu/etherRegen) ?

So one end (obviously the switch)  dual rate 10/1 SFP(+) module. Other end normal SFP model like we use today in our JohnS design. 
 

A no go, og good to go ?

 

If your lowest common denominator is 1gb sfp then use throughout. That's all there is to it.  For SX use om3 or om4 multi mode

[R1200CL]

@plissken

Are you able to answer the question with a yes or no ?

(We have understood long time that normal SFP will go into a 10GB witch). 

 

If not, please let @jabbr answer. 

[Superdad]

4 hours ago, plissken said:

I've asked for what exact setup that I can recreate to hear these magical differences.

You are in the wrong thread for that...

 

4 hours ago, plissken said:

So baring getting 0 reply (is it really that tough of a response?) I simply have to assume that a product with only 3 returns ever (me being one of them) have to assume it's any setup.

 

But now when it comes to ANY setup, mine in particular, I get a manufacturer that whilst they show total ignorance of my DAC's capabilities, have the technical chops to call it garbage. Hence my asking what do I need to obtain... So they can comment on what I have not being resolving enough, but they can't comment on what I should purchase to experience this 'magic'.

I thought this thread was about the $2K+ Melco switches...

 

4 hours ago, plissken said:

I find it surreal.

What I find surreal is your ongoing fixation with UpTone.

Earlier you referred to (your own misunderstanding of our claims) as "borderline criminal" and claimed we are "either trying to put one over on people that don't know any better or it is a staggering lack of technical understanding." 

That's quite rich given:

a) John Swenson's decades of chip and circuit designing;

b) The thousands of extremely happy customs worldwide--for John's designs both with UpTone and for Sonore (Rendu series);

c) The likelyhood that you have never in your life designed a sophisticated digital (or analog) circuit.

[plissken]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

@plissken

Are you able to answer the question with a yes or no ?

(We have understood long time that normal SFP will go into a 10GB witch). 

 

If not, please let @jabbr answer. 

 

This has been answered multiple times.

 

SFP = up to 1GB

SFP+ = up to 10GB

 

You have to have compatible (speed and media type) on both ends.

 

It's that simple.  No one here that has explained this to you is having a failure to explain it correctly. Just re-read through and it should click.

[plissken]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

You are in the wrong thread for that...

 

Shit Alex, I've asked so many times that apparently there isn't a right thread for it.

 

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

 

I thought this thread was about the $2K+ Melco switches...

 

What I find surreal is your ongoing fixation with UpTone.

Earlier you referred to (your own misunderstanding of our claims)

 

I understand your claims 100%. From either your website or your 'white paper w/ FAQ'.

 

You've yet to point out what I've misunderstood.

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

as "borderline criminal" and claimed we are "either trying to put one over on people that don't know any better or it is a staggering lack of technical understanding." 

That's quite rich given:

a) John Swenson's decades of chip and circuit designing;

b) The thousands of extremely happy customs worldwide--for John's designs both with UpTone and for Sonore (Rendu series);

c) The likelyhood that you have never in your life designed a sophisticated digital (or analog) circuit.

 

What's quite rich is that 'decades of chip and circuit designing' and still not one simple A/B measurement of supposed improvement.

 

My $8000 to $1000 is available to any of your thousands of happy customers. You should spot one of them the $1000 and then split the $8000 ;-)

 

You're correct, I don't do IC or circuit design. I architect and engineer mission critical networks with 99.999% uptime and full redundancy.

 

[Confused]

16 hours ago, plissken said:

 

Miska pointed out that they are measuring with shielded cable. This is most definitely not recommended. The UTP cabling is common mode noise rejection by design. The shield is not and it's also tying two network devices together over their ground plane. With such devices potentially plugged into different wall outlets on different circuits or even different buildings given the 100 yard length spec you get into oddities of current flow.

To be clear, Miska stated that he would guess that the differences (between Melco and standard switch) would go away if a standard UTP6 cable was used.  So maybe this is likely, but we do not know.

 

He also stated (accurately) that HFN doesn't tell what other equipment was connected to the switch and through what kind of cable.

 

We can all speculate, for example, I would guess that Paul Miller knows enough about ground currents that he would not connect any other equipment to the switch using a shielded cable.  But it is just a guess, so maybe not.  That said, it would definitely have been more interesting if the test was performed with the Melco cable and with a standard UTP6, but is was not (as far as we know), so we are left guessing.

 

Unless anyone is able to reproduce the test and try this, we will not know for sure.

[Confused]

18 hours ago, firedog said:

Wow, those measurements show a tiny difference. Is it audible? There is such a thing as "good enough" performance - meaning that slightly better measured results aren't audible. Both subjectivists and objectivists need to remember this, I think. 

 

The main takeaway I have from those measurements is that I'd rather get an item like the Arcam or the Mytek that doesn't need "improvement", as opposed to the Lumin, that needs "help". 

I agree that the measurements show a tiny difference and mentioned in my own post that they are unlikely to be audible.

 

Although you are contradicting yourself very slightly, you state the issue does not matter and state it is not audible, then state you would rather have the Arcam or Mytek that does not suffer from the issue.  It either matters or it doesn't.

 

All of this is missing the point though. as I stated before, there is a measured difference and I am interested as to why.  Pure open minded curiosity, with the thought that there is just a chance that there is something to learn here.  Maybe it is a simple ground issue and using a UTP6 cable would make it go away, but maybe not.  @MarkusBarkusstated it well in his earlier post, and like him I am "just leaving the door open" a little bit.  

[firedog]

1 hour ago, Confused said:

Although you are contradicting yourself very slightly, you state the issue does not matter and state it is not audible, then state you would rather have the Arcam or Mytek that does not suffer from the issue.  It either matters or it doesn't.

Not really. It's just a preference for something that seems to have a better design. In situations where devices all measure well, I'd probably go for the one that had the best feature set/UI, anyway.

[Confused]

3 minutes ago, firedog said:

Not really. It's just a preference for something that seems to have a better design. In situations where devices all measure well, I'd probably go for the one that had the best feature set/UI, anyway.

Yes, I get that and understand the point, its pretty much how I see things too as it happens.  Apologies if I was being a bit pedantic.

 

It does beg the question though, if you were considering the Mytec, Arcam and Lumin, would you ignore the issue picked up by HFN and go for the Lumin, assuming it had the best the feature set/UI, and other measurements were comparable?  Or would the fact that Lumin alone had this issue and so was maybe not "engineered" quite so well maybe put you off a touch?

[R1200CL]

8 hours ago, plissken said:

You have to have compatible (speed and media type) on both ends.

Still you or @jabbrhas not been able to produce a link to a working 10/1 auto SPF+ or SFP28 module. 
Preferable working together with that nice 4 port switch. 
 

I’m also asking if those SFP with RJ45 at 10/100/1000 will have same jitter tolerance as fiber ones when used in a 10GB switch. You guys demonstrate you don’t know the answer

@jabbr said. 

Quote

I have also used Finisar 10/1 Gbe dual speed SFP(+) modules as well as Mellanox multispeed SFP28 with Mellanox NIC and several QSFP28 modules in Mellanox SN2700 switch

I’m only asking for links to those modules. Is it that hard to produce ?

[R1200CL]

8 hours ago, plissken said:

My $8000 to $1000 is available to any of your thousands of happy customers. You should spot one of them the $1000 and then split the $8000 ;-)

 

Can you explain the technical requirements for this test. (Before I start a new tread about it)

 

Is it all about the etherRegen, or about a switch won’t matter in general?

[R1200CL]

As far as I understand there exist only one multimode 1/10 GB Finsair module. (And one single mode). 

https://www.finisar.com/sites/default/files/downloads/ftlx8571d3bcv_1g_10g_850nm_multimode_datacom_sfp-plus_transceiver_product_specification_revb.pdf

 

I use this selection chart to find it:

https://www.finisar.com/sites/default/files/resources/finisar_optical_transceiver_product_guide_3_2015_web.pdf
 

Do not insert this product into an etherRegen or an opticalRendu. It will get destroyed. 
 

Now @plissken or @jabbr

Will this product automatically communicate with 1GB SFP if that SPT is dual (LX) and 850nm ?

(Intended to be in opticalRendu/etherRegen/Cisco 2960). 

 

Is jitter Per IEEE 802.3-2005 Table 38-10 equal to almost none as stated earlier by you @jabbr ?

(Jitter ref. as pr. data sheet).

By using this CRS305-1G-4S+IN and the suggested SFP+ module, should I then expect a jitter free / phase noise free equal or even better than etherRegen ? 
 

If we assume ground loop noise etc is eliminated by the moat in the etherRegen, will inserting a RJ45 SFP into a 10GB switch also ensure elimination of jitter and phase noise ?

 

CSS/CRS305-1G-4S+ -- supports up to 2 simultaneous S+RJ10 modules.

 

 

[plissken]

7 hours ago, Confused said:

We can all speculate, for example, I would guess that Paul Miller knows enough about ground currents that he would not connect any other equipment to the switch using a shielded cable.  But it is just a guess, so maybe not.  That said, it would definitely have been more interesting if the test was performed with the Melco cable and with a standard UTP6, but is was not (as far as we know), so we are left guessing.

 

This is my point: The lack of details about how all this was benched is THE problem.

 

 

[jabbr]

3 hours ago, R1200CL said:

As far as I understand there exist only one multimode 1/10 GB Finsair module. (And one single mode). 

https://www.finisar.com/sites/default/files/downloads/ftlx8571d3bcv_1g_10g_850nm_multimode_datacom_sfp-plus_transceiver_product_specification_revb.pdf

 

I use this selection chart to find it:

https://www.finisar.com/sites/default/files/resources/finisar_optical_transceiver_product_guide_3_2015_web.pdf
 

Do not insert this product into an etherRegen or an opticalRendu. It will get destroyed. 
 

Now @plissken or @jabbr

Will this product automatically communicate with 1GB SFP if that SPT is dual (LX) and 850nm ?

(Intended to be in opticalRendu/etherRegen/Cisco 2960). 

 

The LX version is: https://www.finisar.com/sites/default/files/downloads/finisar_ftlx1471d3bcv_rohs-6_compliant_1g-10g_10km_datacom_sfp_transceiver_product_specification.pdf

 

read the datasheets, the one you quote clearly states that its multimode (SX), LX is singlemode

 

3 hours ago, R1200CL said:

 

Is jitter Per IEEE 802.3-2005 Table 38-10 equal to almost none as stated earlier by you @jabbr ?

(Jitter ref. as pr. data sheet).

By using this CRS305-1G-4S+IN and the suggested SFP+ module, should I then expect a jitter free / phase noise free equal or even better than etherRegen ? 

 

Fiberoptic does not transmit common mode noise, much better isolation than any electrical "moat"

 

 

3 hours ago, R1200CL said:

If we assume ground loop noise etc is eliminated by the moat in the etherRegen, will inserting a RJ45 SFP into a 10GB switch also ensure elimination of jitter and phase noise ?

 

CSS/CRS305-1G-4S+ -- supports up to 2 simultaneous S+RJ10 modules.

 

 

 

You can use the RJ45 in and fiberoptic out.