Melco S100 Ethernet Switch Measurements

[firedog]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

Does there even exist a consensus about how to measure a switch?

Is there a standard for it, and if so, will measurements fully cover what we’re after ?

I think that's the wrong question. It doesn't matter how the switch itself measures. It matters how the switch does or doesn't change the output at the DAC. What if the switch is "low noise" but that changes nothing at the output of the DAC when compared to a standard "noisey" switch? 

I'm not interested in the measurements of the switch. I'm interested in how it does or doesn't change the output of the DAC. That's part of my problem here. Why is it so hard for manufacturers of such devices to provide such measurements? And if they somehow need "special devices" to measure DAC output, why can't they contract out for their devices to be measured when in line before the DAC? Doesn't seem like something that should be especially expensive or impossibly difficult. 

[plissken]

3 hours ago, Confused said:

I note the augments of some that what is measured is not audible, but I remain curious of what is actually happening, specifically what is causing what effect. 

 

Miska pointed out that they are measuring with shielded cable. This is most definitely not recommended. The UTP cabling is common mode noise rejection by design. The shield is not and it's also tying two network devices together over their ground plane. With such devices potentially plugged into different wall outlets on different circuits or even different buildings given the 100 yard length spec you get into oddities of current flow.

[R1200CL]

7 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Getting off topic in this thread but, no,  SFP cages need SFP modules.

 

You can use a single rate 1Gbe SFP module on one end and connect to a multi rate SFP(+) or SFP28 module at the switch.

 

Can you link me to a SFP+ or a SFP28 that’s fits in and work with cisco 2960, etherRegen and opticalRendu ? I’m asking, cause if not to expensive, I would like to try. 

 

If such modules exist, wouldn’t I still need a 10GB switch in order to benefit from a better clock ?

 

Is there to expect any benefits in only using those modules, without a 10GB switch as well ?

 

If I understand you correctly, measurements between etherRegen and a such a switch with those modules asked for, should be less to nothing ? (In theory). 

[plissken]

2 hours ago, firedog said:

 

The main takeaway I have from those measurements is that I'd rather get an item like the Arcam or the Mytek that doesn't need "improvement", as opposed to the Lumin, that needs "help". 

 

Keep in mind a $10 UTP cable may make all the difference for the Lumin.

[plissken]

2 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Does there even exist a consensus about how to measure a switch?

Is there a standard for it, and if so, will measurements fully cover what we’re after ?

 

It's obvious: Your ears. Ears are the gold standard poster child for many members.

 

I'm going to up my offer to $8000 to someones $1000 and travel expense paid for by the the person that's ends up incorrect. Of course this will have be after a vaccine is in wide distribution.

[plissken]

8 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Can you link me to a SFP+ or a SFP28 that’s fits in and work with cisco 2960, etherRegen and opticalRendu ? I’m asking, cause if not to expensive, I would like to try. 

 

The 2960 is 1GB only and the FS.COM module for SX OM2 LC MM Fiber (Orange cable) is $6.

 

OM2 at 1GB is good for 550M. At 10GBe it's good for 82M. So you have future proofing built in.

[R1200CL]

23 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

The 2960 is 1GB only and the FS.COM module for SX OM2 LC MM Fiber (Orange cable) is $6.

 

OM2 at 1GB is good for 550M. At 10GBe it's good for 82M. So you have future proofing built in.

That is not what I asked for. I’m discussing implementation of 10GB. (In order to eliminate jitter).  
I taught that was clear. 

 

I hope @jabbr will answer. 
 

[plissken]

5 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

That is not what I asked for. I’m discussing implementation of 10GB. (In order to eliminate jitter).  
I taught that was clear. 

 

I hope @jabbr will answer. 
 

 

I just frikkin told you that the 10GB modules WON'T work on the 2960.

 

THE 2960 IS 1GB ONLY.

 

You however can get the Cisco 2360 for ~$60 at Ebay (in the U.S.) that does 48 GBe copper and 4 SFP+ (1 or 10GB).

[R1200CL]

44 minutes ago, plissken said:

I'm going to up my offer to $8000 to someones $1000 and travel expense paid for by the the person that's ends up incorrect. Of course this will have be after a vaccine is in wide distribution.

Well first we need to agree upon the setup. 
Shall we start a tread about @plissken’s $8000 challenge ?

Maybe ask if we can use Darko’s location for the test. Or Mr Beekhuyzen’s ? 😀

I think Harman has a special designed listing room as well. And a course where you can train and learn how to listen. 
Maybe we need to attend that course as well 😀

[R1200CL]

3 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

I just frikkin told you that the 10GB modules WON'T work on the 2960.

 

THE 2960 IS 1GB ONLY.

 @jabbr says different. Let’s be patient. As he stats those modules can also give 1GB. 
 

[jabbr]

32 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

 @jabbr says different. Let’s be patient. As he stats those modules can also give 1GB. 
 

 

SFP(+) modules fit in SFP(+) ports in 10Gbe devices. SFP modules fit in SFP(+) ports but SFP(+) modules do not fit in 1Gbe SFP ports.

 

You need a switch with SFP(+) ports i.e. 10Gbe.

 

I don't know if the EtherRegen nor Melco S100 switches meet the 10Gbe standards because they are not 10Gbe devices nor have I seen measurements against the 10Gbe and up stressed eye pattern tests that are required and implemented by e.g. Agilent / Keysight or Tektronix.  I cannot assume that either of these devices, or any other device which does not claim compliance with the standards, meet these standards.

 

Obviously 10Gbe and faster switches, typically designed for the professional environment, have such testing done as part of the design process and before the products are sold.

[jabbr]

1 hour ago, firedog said:

I think that's the wrong question. It doesn't matter how the switch itself measures. It matters how the switch does or doesn't change the output at the DAC. What if the switch is "low noise" but that changes nothing at the output of the DAC when compared to a standard "noisey" switch? 

I'm not interested in the measurements of the switch. I'm interested in how it does or doesn't change the output of the DAC. That's part of my problem here. Why is it so hard for manufacturers of such devices to provide such measurements? And if they somehow need "special devices" to measure DAC output, why can't they contract out for their devices to be measured when in line before the DAC? Doesn't seem like something that should be especially expensive or impossibly difficult. 

 

The switch measurements are required for newer technology switches, e.g. those using less than 20 year old technology.

 

How can you expect a company which doesn't at least do the industry standard measurements, be able to measure the effects of switch jitter on the output of a DAC?

 

They haven't and presumably either can't or don't want to. Fiction and stories sell more than documentaries. Using dragonglass to banish jitter is a sexy story. The nightwalkers are coming ...

 

This is entertainment

[plissken]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

 @jabbr says different. Let’s be patient. As he stats those modules can also give 1GB. 
 

 

No he hasn't said different. I don't need to be patient either as I do this for my full time job and just installed $2.4 Million in gear the first half of the year.

[ASRMichael]

Being patient is being respectful, it has nothing to do with you knowing because it’s you job or not. Maybe simple explanation how you knew the answer would have helped & kept things calm. 

[R1200CL]

Based on @plisskenand @jabbrinsight we can conclude it’s impossible to implement any of John’s present optical design into a 10GB network, even if some optical modules can operate under 1GB speed. 
 

For those using computers as streamers/players/endpoints can enjoy experimenting with 10GB network.

 

So maybe we can hope to see audio devices with SFP+ and SFP28 (10GB) some day.

 

If Uptone / Sonore / SGC is first, l wonder if some other companies will follow.

I think it has been said other companies is coping them. 
 

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

The switch measurements are required for newer technology switches, e.g. those using less than 20 year old technology.

Meaning above 1 GB ?

I’m asking, cause otherwise I could start trying to get measurements from many manufacturers of switches. Including my ISP. 
 

Now let’s have some entertainment 🤩

 

[jabbr]

1 minute ago, R1200CL said:

Based on @plisskenand @jabbrinsight we can conclude it’s impossible to implement any of John’s present optical design into a 10GB network, even if some optical modules can operate under 1GB speed. 

 

I have no idea what "John's present optical design is", but consider that a 10Gbe switch can operate at 1Gbe, and realize that its the same circuit, clocks, PSU etc.

 

1 minute ago, R1200CL said:

For those using computers as streamers/players/endpoints can enjoy experimenting with 10GB network.

 

So maybe we can hope to see audio devices with SFP+ and SFP28 (10GB) some day.

 

If Uptone / Sonore / SGC is first, l wonder if some other companies will follow.

I think it has been said other companies is coping them. 

 

The opticalRendu, the clearfog that I've been using since ?2016 and any endpoint including PCs with NICs, can have the benefit of a 10Gbe network -- which works with 1Gbe endpoints just fine using either 1Gbe or 10/1 Gbe modules.

 

1 minute ago, R1200CL said:

Meaning above 1 GB ?

I’m asking, cause otherwise I could start trying to get measurements from many manufacturers of switches. Including my ISP. 
 

Now let’s have some entertainment 🤩

 

 

No doubt if you become a customer of Cisco or Mellanox etc, they will provide compliance testing. @plissken do you insist prior to a major install? I'm fine with trusting Intel, Cisco, Mellanox, HPE, Dell etc ...

 

[plissken]

59 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

Being patient is being respectful, it has nothing to do with you knowing because it’s you job or not. Maybe simple explanation how you knew the answer would have helped & kept things calm. 

 

Fair enough...

[plissken]

7 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

I have no idea what "John's present optical design is", but consider that a 10Gbe switch can operate at 1Gbe, and realize that its the same circuit, clocks, PSU etc.

 

 

The opticalRendu, the clearfog that I've been using since ?2016 and any endpoint including PCs with NICs, can have the benefit of a 10Gbe network -- which works with 1Gbe endpoints just fine using either 1Gbe or 10/1 Gbe modules.

 

 

No doubt if you become a customer of Cisco or Mellanox etc, they will provide compliance testing. @plissken do you insist prior to a major install? I'm fine with trusting Intel, Cisco, Mellanox, HPE, Dell etc ...

 

 

In the medical field you can't install something that the vendor hasn't supplied a conformance/compliance certificate.

 

FS.COM modules are even FDA certified.

[plissken]

12 minutes ago, jabbr said:

No doubt if you become a customer of Cisco or Mellanox etc, they will provide compliance testing. @plissken do you insist prior to a major install? I'm fine with trusting Intel, Cisco, Mellanox, HPE, Dell etc ...

 

 

The GetWell system uses Trendnet. I've seen Konica Imaging install NetGear.

 

Pyxis is also using NetGear from what I recall.

[jabbr]

Just now, plissken said:

 

In the medical field you can't install something that the vendor hasn't supplied a conformance/compliance certificate.

 

FS.COM modules are even FDA certified.

 

The take home message is that if you use a 10Gbe+ compliant switch, you can be assured that the stressed eye pattern conformance testing has been done. That's the take home message for switch measurements.

 

Going further, though, suppose you wanted to see the actuall stressed eye pattern tests ... what would it take to get those?

[plissken]

1 minute ago, jabbr said:

 

The take home message is that if you use a 10Gbe+ compliant switch, you can be assured that the stressed eye pattern conformance testing has been done. That's the take home message for switch measurements.

 

Going further, though, suppose you wanted to see the actuall stressed eye pattern tests ... what would it take to get those?

 

Here is what FS.COM gives out:

https://community.fs.com/blog/what-kinds-of-testing-are-needed-for-transceivers.html

 

Honestly never looked. So busy it's just run and gun for me and trust that they have the required certifications.

[R1200CL]

11 minutes ago, jabbr said:

The opticalRendu, the clearfog that I've been using since ?2016 and any endpoint including PCs with NICs, can have the benefit of a 10Gbe network -- which works with 1Gbe endpoints just fine using either 1Gbe or 10/1 Gbe modules.

Here we go again. Not easy this. Maybe I’m missing something obvious?

Or I’m not explaining myself very well ?

 

Can I have a link to one or several SFP modules that both support a 10GB switch as well as the opticalRendu? 

 

I’m asking cause then I like to purchase that 10GB switch linked to earlier, or a similar one, and connect it to my opticalRendu and maybe even etherRegen as well as my Cisco 2960. 
 

My understanding from @plisskenis this can’t be done. But now you’re suddenly indicating otherwise. 

You highly educated guys should be able to enlighten us, instead of confusing us.

 

 

[plissken]

Just now, R1200CL said:

Here we go again. Not easy this. Maybe I’m missing something obvious?

Or I’m not explaining myself very well ?

 

Can I have a link to one or several SFP modules that both support a 10GB switch as well as the opticalRendu? 

 

I’m asking cause then I like to purchase that 10GB switch linked to earlier, or a similar one, and connect it to my opticalRendu and maybe even etherRegen as well as my Cisco 2960. 
 

My understanding from @plisskenis this can’t be done. But now you’re suddenly indicating otherwise. 

You highly educated guys should be able to enlighten us, instead of confusing us.

 

 

 

Now I don't feel so bad :-)

 

If you have a switch with SFP you can go up to 1GB tranceivers.

 

If you have a switch with SFP+ you can go up to 10GB.

 

If you are mixing and matching interface speeds you have to match at the lowest rate tranceiver you have in the link.

 

If you have an end point that has SFP+ and a switch that has SFP the best you are going to do is 1GB. So just use 1GB optics ($6 per). You could go with a multi-rate tranceiver but your costs go up for what gain?

[MarkusBarkus]

4 hours ago, firedog said:

I'm not interested in the measurements of the switch. I'm interested in how it does or doesn't change the output of the DAC. That's part of my problem here. Why is it so hard for manufacturers of such devices to provide such measurements? 

@firedog and others, I agree with you that the rubber meets the road where the music meets the ear. That's the reason we turn on the amp in the first place.

 

That said, one of the reasons why, IMO, manufactures do not (cannot in some cases *maybe*) always publish some of the info you (and most of us) seek is due to the number of combinations/permutations various components could create at output at the DAC or other places.

 

I agree with the network measurement honchos here (and have learned a lot, thanks guys) re: network standards, etc. but per above, I leave the door partially open for the combinatory impacts all these pieces *might* create. End of my point, but example below, if interested.

 

Quite a while ago I worked for a manufacturer (not audio) who decided to build a new-to-them product. Amazing design. Leading edge features. They lined up vendors for all the pieces of the product, and defined tolerances and specs. Mil Spec, if I recall correctly. 
 

Big issues with the finished product, which after millions of dollars, was scuttled.

 

One of the primary issues was related to stacking tolerances. Individual pieces were quite precise, but their lack of knowledge caused them to miss the tolerance outcome when the pieces were assembled. Oops.

 

And no excuses for that other than hubris, BTW.
 

I recognize this is a little adjacent to your point, but it makes me want to leave the door ajar for well meaning manufacturers who may feel there is no way they can *predict" what impact every possible combination could create. 
 

I'm not defending anyone, or tolerating sloppy design, just leaving the door open a

bit.

 

I'll still read your posts if you guys tell me I'm an idiot. I leave that door open too... 

[jabbr]

8 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Can I have a link to one or several SFP modules that both support a 10GB switch as well as the opticalRendu? 

 

 

First, the SFP module on the switch need not be identical to that on the opticalRendu.

 

Yes, I do this. My 100Gbe switch  literally connects to my 1Gbe  clearfog. My 10Gbe Mikrotik connects to my 1 Gbe clearfog, both also connect to my Intel NIC.