Melco S100 Ethernet Switch Measurements

[plissken]

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I'm late to this party, but for many of the measurement nuts, it means something is better engineered because it has better numbers so it must be better. 

 

I look at it as a difference that was measurable at the output of a DAC, which the objective crowd says is impossible. We can see here that it actually is possible. 

 

If the objective crowd was really into science and discovery, they'd try to determine why/how this happened. 

As miska pointed out it's a shielded cat6. So no I don't agree with your assessment. Miska is on point. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, plissken said:

As miska pointed out it's a shielded cat6. So no I don't agree with your assessment. Miska is on point. 

Which part do you disagree with? 

[plissken]

13 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Which part do you disagree with? 

That a switch is supposed to fix a chassis tied shield. You fix that with the correct cable. That's another point I've made ad nauseum.

 

What happens on the melco if you use utp and the .4 goes away?

[The Computer Audiophile]

14 minutes ago, plissken said:

That a switch is supposed to fix a chassis tied shield. You fix that with the correct cable. That's another point I've made ad nauseum.

 

What happens on the melco if you use utp and the .4 goes away?

I was unaware that the switch was supposed to fix a chassis tied cable issue and that is the issue that caused the output of the DAC to change.

 

I'd love to see if a different cable changes the results.

 

I'd never used shielded network cables. 

 

I suppose the measurement army is on this and will have samples to measure in 3...2...1?

[R1200CL]

Talking about measurements.
 

An entire village lost its broadband at the same time every day for 18 months. Now we know why

 

Second-hand TV wipes out broadband for entire village

[The Computer Audiophile]

6 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Talking about measurements.
 

An entire village lost its broadband at the same time every day for 18 months. Now we know why

 

Second-hand TV wipes out broadband for entire village

If only people had properly designed networks, this wouldn't be an issue 🤣

[jabbr]

8 hours ago, R1200CL said:

And as you know there is in general accepted that a PC is the worst endpoint. With expensive exceptions. 

 

I'm neutral on this ... I don't generally accept.

 

Is a NUC a PC?

 

What about a low power celeron board with PCI-e?

 

You can get an inexpensive low powered celeron micro-ATX and use an LPS to supply, cheap 10G fiber NIC and perhaps a fancy USB card ...

[jabbr]

3 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Talking about measurements.
 

An entire village lost its broadband at the same time every day for 18 months. Now we know why

 

Second-hand TV wipes out broadband for entire village

 

A lightning strike took out a friend's home network.

 

I have fiber to the home and fiber in the home ;)

 

[jabbr]

7 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I'm late to this party, but for many of the measurement nuts, it means something is better engineered because it has better numbers so it must be better. 

 

I look at it as a difference that was measurable at the output of a DAC, which the objective crowd says is impossible. We can see here that it actually is possible. 

 

If the objective crowd was really into science and discovery, they'd try to determine why/how this happened. 

 

Its certainly not impossible -- at all.

 

leakage current is a simple explanation ... a ground loop.

 

[R1200CL]

57 minutes ago, jabbr said:

What about a low power celeron board with PCI-e?

 

You can get an inexpensive low powered celeron micro-ATX and use an LPS to supply, cheap 10G fiber NIC and perhaps a fancy USB card ...

Yes, point taken. But that’s not Windows machines. Or ?
I think you’re close to special endpoints. And then you can’t control a buffer inside them without a network attached, which was what we discussed. 
 

I think the Novel tread has many good examples of machines in that ballpark you are aiming towards. 
 

Actually I like the idea of 10GB NIC if it’s fiber, but as for me, with an opticalRendu, I can’t benefit much from it yet. As you noticed we also discussed the options of placing 1 GB SFP into 10GB switches, and that solution I’m not so sure is a recommended one. You may assist in enlighten us. 
 

What is good, is there seems to be a consensus between @plisskenand @Superdad that fiber optics will remove all ground loop noise and similar that can travel in normal Ethernet cables. (RJ45 interfaces). 
Which is also what etherRegen manages without fiber if you cross the moat. 
 

Clock phase noise is another issue. Somehow it seems to simple that it’s just gone by adding buffers. Eliminating the purpose of etherRegen if you use fiber and have a buffer as well. 
I may speculate in why those magic buffers then wasn’t added to any of John’s design. 
 

I still hasn’t got a suggestion of what size a buffer should have, or if some sort of a dual buffer may help. Would a buffer in a switch make sense ? 

[jabbr]

7 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Clock phase noise is another issue. Somehow it seems to simple that it’s just gone by adding buffers. Eliminating the purpose of etherRegen if you use fiber and have a buffer as well. 
I may speculate in why those magic buffers then wasn’t added to any of John’s design.

 

10Gbe fiber does not have appreciable phase noise! By specification. By "appreciable" I mean that no audio manufacturer has ever demonstrated that they can improve over it ... its all in the sub-picosecond range (i.e. femto) moreover it cannot travel from link to link (as specified)

[R1200CL]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

 

10Gbe fiber does not have appreciable phase noise! By specification. By "appreciable" I mean that no audio manufacturer has ever demonstrated that they can improve over it ... its all in the sub-picosecond range (i.e. femto) moreover it cannot travel from link to link (as specified)

Well, then that should be the solution for future audio streaming interfaces. 
10GB fiber Ethernet. Any comment @JohnSwenson ?

(like it solves everything in your white paper). 

 

On the other hand, shouldn’t it be possible to do 1GB with same specifications?

Well, maybe etherRegen is close to that. We would need an upgraded version with fiber B-side.

 

Until we see streaming devices with 10GB optical interfaces. Or with etherRegen like technology 😀

I can see that good engineered DIY computers with 10GB optical can be attempting to start and experiment with.

Maybe something you already have implemented @plissken ?

Then you don’t need to pull that cable every time. 

[jabbr]

40 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

On the other hand, shouldn’t it be possible to do 1GB with same specifications?

Well, maybe etherRegen is close to that. We would need an upgraded version with fiber B-side.

 

10Gbe switches and NICs work at 1Gbe also. You get the same engineering, clocks etc. I’ve run 10, 25 and 100Gbe interfaces at 1Gbe 😉

[R1200CL]

22 minutes ago, jabbr said:

10Gbe switches and NICs work at 1Gbe also. You get the same engineering, clocks etc. I’ve run 10, 25 and 100Gbe interfaces at 1Gbe 😉

@plissken said:

Quote

1GB won't have as tight a tolerance as 10GB. From my understanding all the engineering is in the SFP transceiver.

Any suggestions of a 10GB SFP module to use in opticalRendu and maybe a switch like this ?

https://www.amazon.com/MikroTik-CRS305-1G-4S-Gigabit-Ethernet-RouterOS/dp/B07LFKGP1L/ref=sr_1_1
 

I can place 10GB SFP transceivers directly into either etherRegen or my Cisco 2960 ?

So by using the right SFP transceivers in a 1GB network , obtain 10GB specifications?

Please suggest your best audiophile network items that can be used with 1 GB fiber devices. 

 

[ericuco]

30 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Any suggestions of a 10GB SFP module to use in opticalRendu and maybe a switch like this ?

I use Finisar SFP modules.  10Gbe modules between my server (Intel X520-DA1) and Mikrotik switch. 1Gbe modules between Mikrotik switch and opticalRendu.

 

You can’t use 10Gbe modules in 1Gbe equipment like opticalRendu. There are some SFP modules that operate at 10/1Gbe that might work.

[plissken]

10GB modules only work at 10GB. So you can't have a 10GB tranceiver on one end and 1GB on the other.

 

SFP only supports 1GB

SFP+ supports 1GB and 10GB modules

SFP56 supports 1/10/28/56GB modules

 

[jabbr]

17 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

10GB modules only work at 10GB. So you can't have a 10GB tranceiver on one end and 1GB on the other.

 

SFP only supports 1GB

SFP+ supports 1GB and 10GB modules

 

Many newer modules are multi rate ie the Intel 10/1Gbe

 

Most SFP28 modules do 25/10/5/1 

[plissken]

9 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Many newer modules are multi rate ie the Intel 10/1Gbe

 

Most SFP28 modules do 25/10/5/1 

 

The vendor modules I've been working with have been single rate only. I know there are dual rate 1/10GBe but they aren't as cost effective and we don't have business use cases that support the expenditure. If we are going 10GB or what have you we just standardize on it.

[R1200CL]

On 9/25/2020 at 4:00 AM, jabbr said:

Most SFP28 modules do 25/10/5/1 

Are you sure a SFP28 will fit into a normal SFP cage ?

https://community.fs.com/blog/sfp-vs-sfp-vs-sf-p28-vs-qsfp-vs-qsf-p28-what-are-the-differences.html

 

SFP is up to 4 Gbit/s while SFP+ is 10 Gbit/s. Besides, they comply with different specifications. SFP is based on SFF-8472 protocol, and SFP+ conforms to SFF-8431 and SFF-8432. And in terms of SFP vs SFP+ compatibility, SFP+ ports often accept SFP optics but at a reduced speed of 1 Gbit/s. And SFP+ transceiver can not be plugged into an SFP port, otherwise, the product or port may be damaged.

[Confused]

On 9/23/2020 at 11:30 PM, Superdad said:

Says the network jockey playing with data analyzer bits to the chip engineer (John Swenson) of 31 years who actually designed the power networks Ethernet switch chips and PHYs and understands and measures what happens at the lowest levels.

Mindful that this is posted in the objective area, I think is highly appropriate that you mention that John Swenson measures what happens at the lowest levels.  Why then is there such a reluctance for UpTone Audio to publish any measurements?

 

I started this thread because I was genuinely interested that HiFi News had measured the Melco switch and found differences at the DAC.  Why is this?  What mechanisms are in play? 

 

I note the augments of some that what is measured is not audible, but I remain curious of what is actually happening, specifically what is causing what effect.  I think there might be something to learn here, and with better understanding maybe we can find a difference at the DAC that might indeed be audible.  There is much talk of things that can be heard but not measured, but if we can actually measure differences at the DAC, this this at least provides some credibility to perceived sound quality changes.   I am a happy EtherRegen user, but it would be nice to have some objective evidence that the reason that I like my EnterRegen in the system is based on something real, rather than some kind of placebo effect.  

 

So If JS has measured to the lowest levels, why not publish the results?  Otherwise all I am left with are the reasonably logical arguments from @plisskento convince me that I am indeed just kidding myself.

 

 

[firedog]

55 minutes ago, Confused said:

 

I started this thread because I was genuinely interested that HiFi News had measured the Melco switch and found differences at the DAC.  Why is this?  What mechanisms are in play? 

Wow, those measurements show a tiny difference. Is it audible? There is such a thing as "good enough" performance - meaning that slightly better measured results aren't audible. Both subjectivists and objectivists need to remember this, I think. 

 

The main takeaway I have from those measurements is that I'd rather get an item like the Arcam or the Mytek that doesn't need "improvement", as opposed to the Lumin, that needs "help". 

[R1200CL]

1 hour ago, Confused said:

I started this thread because I was genuinely interested that HiFi News had measured the Melco switch and found differences at the DAC.  Why is this?  What mechanisms are in play?

Does there even exist a consensus about how to measure a switch?

Is there a standard for it, and if so, will measurements fully cover what we’re after ?

[R1200CL]

1 hour ago, Confused said:

Why then is there such a reluctance for UpTone Audio to publish any measurements?

I don’t think there exist any reluctance from either John or Alex. John has stated he will get there, but it take time. 
Also it’s understandable that new product development is prioritized. I think Sonore will be first, we seen a microRendu 1.5 already. Alex has stated a product soon to to come. (Not network related if I remember correctly).
 

Even though it take time to fully produce measurements for 3 type of jitters etc, I rather wait until John’s development is fulfilled for whatever is going on. 
 

Also the new products is highly likely to have some sort of correlation with the requested measurements. 
 

We just have to accept things take time. 

[jabbr]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

Does there even exist a consensus about how to measure a switch?

Is there a standard for it, and if so, will measurements fully cover what we’re after ?

Yes of course there are standards. The 1Gbe specs are ancient/pre-historic really. The industry realized over two decades ago that measurement standards were necessary. The 10Gbe specs provided that. You cannot claim compliance with 10Gbe without doing measurements! 
 

These specifications were specifically designed to prevent jitter from traveling across network hops. These issues are only a discussion because we are dealing with $10 home switches using generic parts otherwise.

[jabbr]

4 hours ago, R1200CL said:

On 9/24/2020 at 10:00 PM, jabbr said:

 

Are you sure a SFP28 will fit into a normal SFP cage ?

Getting off topic in this thread but, no,  SFP cages need SFP modules.

 

You can use a single rate 1Gbe SFP module on one end and connect to a multi rate SFP(+) or SFP28 module at the switch.