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1 hour ago, audiobomber said:

IMO, Picasso's work was a joke perpetrated on the art world. They still haven't gotten it, but in the future I believe it will be revealed as a hoax. 😶

 

Do you mean the stuff that followed his more "realistic art" (that is, primitivism and then cubism)?  

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3 hours ago, audiobomber said:

IMO, Picasso's work was a joke perpetrated on the art world. They still haven't gotten it, but in the future I believe it will be revealed as a hoax. 😶

I have always thought that Picasso was a bit of a charlatan. I’ve often wondered if his work wasn’t a joke perpetrated on the art world on purpose by him. Of course we can but wonder. Because there’s no way to know.

George

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26 minutes ago, Cazzesman said:

Devin Townsend  with a 5 Octave Range.    Not many come close to what he can do.

In my view this is a more engineering way to analyse voices, like an amplifier with a frequency 1 - 100,000 Hz. It does not say anything about emotions, how a voice grab you etc.

 

Lucinda Williams, Bod Dylan and Tom Waits do not have the purest voices around. Still it put many in trance, not all but quite a few. Are they then great voices? Against what meassure? For whom? Why? What's "wrong" with them who like it or those who don't? How much is the tune and arrangement and what part is the voice?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ropet said:

Bod Dylan and Tom Waits do not have the purest voices around. Still it put many in trance

 

Yes

 

1 hour ago, Ropet said:

Are they then great voices?

 

Yes

 

1 hour ago, Ropet said:

Against what meassure?

 

Any measure of a trance. Let me know when you find it !

 

 

Sound Minds Mind Sound

 

 

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12 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Is the Sistine Chapel better than Dark Side of the Moon? Sounds ridiculous to even consider the question. 

 

I was going to resist reading/commenting further, but can't!  :)

 

The answer to your first question in my mind is that yes, it is.

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4 minutes ago, sphinxsix said:

 

I will still argue that art can be judged objectively :)

Just some examples of possible criteria: uniqueness/originality, professional quality (neatness and craft), aesthetic quality (design, composition, color/tones), concept, selection and application of materials, and complexity/level of technology used.

Chris, would you be ready to compromise if I added the word 'quite' to 'objectively', eventually the expression 'with some subjectivist margin'.? 9_9

Just asking.. B| 

(something tells me it's not a good thing to be at war with the site founder ;))

 

 

As for Picasso, discussed here (I quite like his early blue and rose periods)  - like I said he copied a number of Braque's ideas but OTOH in a way he was the inventor of a card payment. In his later years before leaving a restaurant he often asked if they prefer cash or his quick drawing and guess what was the answer he usually heard.. x-D

 

No worries sphinx. I enjoy lively respectful discussions. It's how we learn about both sides of an issue. I'll always respect you and those who put forth their honest opinions in a kind way. 

 

I still don't see how we can judge art on those categories given that the artist had no clue about them and wasn't even striving for them. It's like me judging your stride on the way to the bathroom this morning. You had no clue you'd be judged and likely don't care. Many artists don't care what others think about their work and don't strive for those goals. Thus, it's crazy to judge them. 

 

How can you judge something on selection and application of materials? An artist selects something based on whatever s/he wants, not what some minister of art information thinks is good or should be used. 

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7 hours ago, gmgraves said:

I have always thought that Picasso was a bit of a charlatan. I’ve often wondered if his work wasn’t a joke perpetrated on the art world on purpose by him. Of course we can but wonder. Because there’s no way to know.

 

One of his sculptures in particular made me wonder if he was "messing about" since it used stuff he found laying around and turned that into "art."  But, I had an uncle who did the same thing in later life (his second career) and he wasn't trying to perpetrate anything -- he didn't really care about anyone's reaction, just how it made him feel to express himself.  He knew if it meant something to him, it would mean something to someone else, even only one person.  Was he an artist?  I don't know what the best definition is, but I do know that I was deeply affected by some of my uncle's pieces.  My uncle made seemingly simple stuff, but he wasn't a simple man.

 

I do think Picasso was a bit of s showman.  In the art world, the artist's personal story is important too.  

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2 minutes ago, sphinxsix said:

 

Let me ask you - how can you explain that so many people, both listeners and critics, regard e.g. Rembrandt a good painter or let's say Hendrix - a good guitarist.? If so many (probably with few exceptions in these cases) people agree on that, do you think we can say that such judgments are at least to some degree objective.? 

 

The Earth has 7.5 billion people. The percentage that think Rembrandt and Hendrix are good, is probably tiny. That said, humans of certain cultures or ancestral origins tend to like those artists. I don't think numbers are equivalent to objectivity. I also don't see how you can judge someone on something that he didn't know he would be judged at the time he created the art. 

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3 minutes ago, PYP said:

 

 

I do tink Picasso was a bit of s showman.  In the art world, the artist's personal story is important too.  

 

I would agree with that. The biggest one was probably Dali.

 

What’s true of all the evils in the world is true of plague as well.
It helps men to rise above themselves.
 
  ―  Albert Camus, The Plague.

 

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1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

The Earth has 7.5 billion people. The percentage that think Rembrandt and Hendrix are good, is probably tiny.

Ok, do you think that the percentage of the ones who think they were bad artists is higher.?

 

2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

That said, humans of certain cultures or ancestral origins tend to like those artists.

I know an art historian who lives here in Leiden, NL who was born in Japan and is mainly fascinated with late 19th centurey Western art, I OTOH have always been fascinated be art of Japan and China :)

 

5 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I also don't see how you can judge someone on something that he didn't know he would be judged at the time he created the art. 

E.g.?

 

What’s true of all the evils in the world is true of plague as well.
It helps men to rise above themselves.
 
  ―  Albert Camus, The Plague.

 

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1 minute ago, sphinxsix said:

Ok, do you think that the percentage of the ones who think they were bad artists is higher.?

 

I know an art historian who lives here in Leiden, NL who was born in Japan and is mainly fascinated with late 19th centurey Western art, I OTOH have always been fascinated be art of Japan and China :)

 

E.g.?

 

Judging a Rembrandt on the use of materials is crazy. He used what he wanted, not what some judge a few hundred years later would think is best. If he was going for top rating he may have used something different.

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17 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Should art then be judged blindly :~)

 

At the same time he had an amazing imagination and technique! 

BTW I used to live almost next to the house of his ex muse - Amanda Lear in St Remy - the village I mentioned earlier.

 

What’s true of all the evils in the world is true of plague as well.
It helps men to rise above themselves.
 
  ―  Albert Camus, The Plague.

 

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9 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Judging a Rembrandt on the use of materials is crazy. He used what he wanted, not what some judge a few hundred years later would think is best. If he was going for top rating he may have used something different.

You didn't answer any of my questions :)

I'm going to smoke a cigarette (outside) now so you have some time though.. ;)

 

What’s true of all the evils in the world is true of plague as well.
It helps men to rise above themselves.
 
  ―  Albert Camus, The Plague.

 

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9 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Judging a Rembrandt on the use of materials is crazy.

Yes but e.g. in some art competition the harder to 'tame' materials can deserve a higher rating not necessarily being a decisive factor of the final judgment of course.

 

What’s true of all the evils in the world is true of plague as well.
It helps men to rise above themselves.
 
  ―  Albert Camus, The Plague.

 

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11 minutes ago, sphinxsix said:

Ok, do you think that the percentage of the ones who think they were bad artists is higher.?

Not sure. 

 

11 minutes ago, sphinxsix said:

E.g.?

This was my Rembrandt example. He painted and had no clue what the criteria for judgement would be a few hundred years later.

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Just now, The Computer Audiophile said:

Not sure. 

I would say I'd be ready to bet my money on my answer to this question.

 

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

This was my Rembrandt example. He painted and had no clue what the criteria for judgement would be a few hundred years later.

I think I have already replied to it in my previous post.

 

What’s true of all the evils in the world is true of plague as well.
It helps men to rise above themselves.
 
  ―  Albert Camus, The Plague.

 

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1 minute ago, sphinxsix said:

Yes but e.g. in some art competition the harder to 'tame' materials can deserve a higher rating not necessarily being a decisive factor of the final judgment of course.

 

That's crazy. An artist uses the material that suits the piece of art, not what is hardest to tame. Using something that's hard to tame just for that reason is dumb. Deducting points off a piece of art because an artist used easy to tame materials is also dumb. 

 

If the contest is to judge who can best tame materials then by all means use that metric. But, creating art is about creating art, not objective measurements used by the ministers of art information. If there were no art judges, just think about all the people in those positions who'd be out of work and couldn't give grades in school.

 

There's a reason for judging art and it doesn't have anything to do wit the art. 

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7 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

That's crazy. An artist uses the material that suits the piece of art, not what is hardest to tame.

Yes, but if in a real world art competition two best works have according to judges similar artistic value and one of them has been done using much more difficult materials or techniques..

 

7 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

There's a reason for judging art and it doesn't have anything to do wit the art. 

If it wasn't for some art critics and historians some names in art which have really deserved a wide recognition might have passed unnoticed..

 

What’s true of all the evils in the world is true of plague as well.
It helps men to rise above themselves.
 
  ―  Albert Camus, The Plague.

 

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This is really an interesting and inspiring discussion. 

Chris seems to be gone for now and I think I need my frutti di mare with vegetables fix :)

What’s true of all the evils in the world is true of plague as well.
It helps men to rise above themselves.
 
  ―  Albert Camus, The Plague.

 

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