Denafrips Gaia or Innuos Phoenix?

[kennyb123]

3 hours ago, Summit said:

 

It depends on what you mean by different class of products. Different as in using different tech and protocols to enhance sound? Yes. Do I believe that it will be the best solution for all DACs? No I don’t think so.

 

You are not at all addressing whether the Phoenix might provide enough of a boost to USB that the decision of which digital input to use is rendered moot.  I get where you are coming from though but your focus seems to be more on the theoretical than on the practical.  What will convince me that the Phoenix and Gaia are both on par is hearing from someone who's kept everything else equal and swapped only one device for the other.

 

And as far as what I mean by different class of products, here's what I have gleaned from reading the product descriptions of each of the following products:

 

Hugo M-Scaler:  This belongs in the scaler class.  It aims only to apply the WTA filter at a million taps.  It converts from USB to dual coax only to be able to achieve that aim with Chord DACs equipped with dual coax inputs.

 

Gaia:  This belongs in the digital-to-digital converter class. It aims to do the best job possible converting and passing along a re-clocked signal at the highest fidelity - while at the same time providing support for converting multiple formats instead of just one.  (Even the Iris, their lowest price converter, makes these same claims.  It's just that the Gaia does it better) 

 

Phoenix:  This belongs in the fixer class:  It aims to only pass along a reclocked and regenerated USB signal at the highest fidelity possible.  The focus is entirely on a singe format so only the components needed to do that single job are included inside the box.  That enables them to ensure the shortest signal paths between the clock and the main board and between the regulator and main board.  (I think every manufacturer of fixer products would make these same claims)

 

Thus we have apple, orange, grapefruit.  It would be perfectly fine to say that Gaia is far better than Iris.  Absent any listening tests, I just don't see how one can say with certainty though that Gaia equals Phoenix as far as how well each device improves the signal.

[kennyb123]

3 hours ago, Blake said:

SUBSEQUENTLY EDITED:

 

Agreed these are technically different devices and comparisons will necessarily be difficult as it is not apples to apples.  

 

Having said that, I look at it from a different angle. The Phoenix, Gaia, Aqua LinQ, IsoRegen, AudioGD DI-20, Chord M-Scaler, Berkeley Alpha USB, etc., all have an overriding goal of improving the sound quality of a hifi system.  In the case of the D/D converters listed, the goal is not just converting to a different format, as there are tons of cheaper products that can achieve that goal.

 

I just view all these products as "sonic enhancers" at differing price points and using different technologies and techniques, which may or may not appeal to certain users.  The target audience is not those just seeking to get a signal from Point "A" to Point "B", they are targeting users that are willing to spend more to also enhance sound quality. 

 

One obvious variable for the D/D devices is you are necessarily needing to consider if the DAC in question, to which the D/D will be attached, has an input hierarchy of sound quality.  If a certain DAC performs best from the DAC's USB input, versus its AES/EBU input for example, that needs to be considered.  However, even with a DAC optimized for USB input it is possible that the performance improvement from a D/D converter going to a lesser input on that DAC may leapfrog the sound quality of USB direct input.

 

If people are interested, they really just need to try them in their own system and see if they feel they are worth the cost.  My findings are- heck yes in the case of the Gaia! 

 

To be clear though, I have tried boat loads of USB enhancer products with results all over the map.  Some detracted from the sound, some only subtly changed the sound, some had nice but not ground breaking changes, etc.  I believe the Phoenix, from all reports, goes beyond some of the older but well known usb enhancer devices to be component level sound quality improvements or beyond.

 

I am also now of the view that some of these sonic enhancer products can have a pretty dramatic improvement, such that money might be better spent on one of these sonic enhancer products rather than a DAC upgrade.  Of course this is not a rule, but that was my finding when I combined my Gaia with my Chord Qutest.

 

Anyway, these are just my random thoughts, and if others view things differently that also is cool with me.

 

 

 

Very well said.

[Blake]

@Rune

 

Yes, my assumption is that a potential buyer's hifi system is already very well sorted out with all of the fundamentals in place and sufficiently revealing. 

[Summit]

7 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

 

You are not at all addressing whether the Phoenix might provide enough of a boost to USB that the decision of which digital input to use is rendered moot.  I get where you are coming from though but your focus seems to be more on the theoretical than on the practical.  What will convince me that the Phoenix and Gaia are both on par is hearing from someone who's kept everything else equal and swapped only one device for the other.

 

 

First of all I have never claimed to address which digital input that is “best”. What I have said is this devises is built to be used with different digital protocols and outputs and both is considered TOTL. Which device or protocol that is best in each case depends on which DAC you have and to some degree also preference.

 

Second it’s evident you don’t get it, you can’t compare Phoenix and Gaia by keeping everything else equal and change only one device for the other. Innuos Phoenix only has USB out and can’t be directly compared to Gaia because it has no USB out, instead it has many other outputs. They are purposely made to be used with different type of digital interface whereas they both aim to achieve the same goal, which is a better sound by providing a clean digital signal for the DAC.

[kennyb123]

56 minutes ago, Summit said:

Second it’s evident you don’t get it, you can’t compare Phoenix and Gaia by keeping everything else equal and change only one device for the other. Innuos Phoenix only has USB out and can’t be directly compared to Gaia because it has no USB out, instead it has many other outputs. They are purposely made to be used with different type of digital interface whereas they both aim to achieve the same goal, which is a better sound by providing a clean digital signal for the DAC.

 

There are many DACs that have achieved input parity - where no one input sounds profoundly better than the other.  My TT2 or even my HMS might be a good starting point for example and I’m sure there are others.  Run the Gaia into the BNC input and the Phoenix into the USB input and actually listen for differences. 
 

You keep avoiding the crux of my argument that without comparative listening you can’t say these are on par with each other as far as the sound quality improvement.  Why is it so difficult for you to admit this?  It’s just common sense that we can’t judge these without listening. 

 

Looking back at your exact words, you said “Which device or protocol that is best in each case depends on which DAC you have and to some degree also preference.” Cutting you some slack here there is another possible interpretation.  Do you not believe that either device can improve the sound quality above what they have been fed? 

[Summit]

1 hour ago, kennyb123 said:

 

There are many DACs that have achieved input parity - where no one input sounds profoundly better than the other.  My TT2 or even my HMS might be a good starting point for example and I’m sure there are others.  Run the Gaia into the BNC input and the Phoenix into the USB input and actually listen for differences. 
 

You keep avoiding the crux of my argument that without comparative listening you can’t say these are on par with each other as far as the sound quality improvement.  Why is it so difficult for you to admit this?  It’s just common sense that we can’t judge these without listening. 

 

Looking back at your exact words, you said “Which device or protocol that is best in each case depends on which DAC you have and to some degree also preference.” Cutting you some slack here there is another possible interpretation.  Do you not believe that either device can improve the sound quality above what they have been fed? 

 

Sorry I have no idea what you are arguing about anymore. Listening is of course how to know which one that sound best in your system. Does it also mean that it will sound best to me and in my system? NO! That is the crux with different systems and preference. An amp that match perfect with horn speaker for example doesn’t necessarily sound very good with a more inefficient speakers. Matching of gear and preference is always paramount IMO.

 

My guess is that Gaia can sound as good or better with some DACs and Phoenix with some another DACs. The problem is that we would need to test these devises in many different audio system to know if they are in fact equally good. So first we need to establish that the difference is not related to the digital interface itself or better sonic match. But the nitty-gritty is; digital interface is an important device just like PSU, analogue stage and digital filter are.

 

Your TT2 or HMS doesn’t have I²S HDMI LVDS which is the “recommended” interface on Denafrips own DAC, but some other interfaces can be tested so you would know if they sound equally good or not to you and in your system. And in the end it’s all that really matters, isn’t it?

[wouterk]

Considering: USB -> ISO Regen -> Gaia -> T+

 

Any thoughts?

[wouterk]

On 8/2/2020 at 7:19 PM, Matias said:

I would also invest in a cheaper and highly effective solution such as the ISO Regen and upgrade the DAC first, remaining system and room too, and only when things are very high level then consider upgrading the ISO Regen, if needed. I think it would bring higher returns.

I started with the ISO Regen in place to the T+. Just took delivery of the Gaia which lifts the sound quality again, although it is just in the detail - worth it!

[Ben-M]

Just in case anyone ever comes across this thread and wonders where it ended up: