Rexp Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 Digititus, fatigue, glare, the feeling you just want to turn the music off after a while to give your ears a break. Now not everone suffers from this but its the biggest problem with digital playback for most folks. One way to alleviate the problem is to listen to lo-res, quite a few members prefer Spotify to Tidal/Qobuz for example. I've gone back to using the headphone out of my laptop rather than external DACs cos, although its lower res, it doesn't make my ears bleed. Any more solutions out there? skatbelt 1 Link to comment
Rexp Posted July 26, 2020 Author Share Posted July 26, 2020 1 hour ago, sandyk said: This suggests that you need a better source than the current laptop that you are using. An example of this is the marked improvement many members reported after retrofitting an Uptone Linear PSU to their Mac Minis, despite using the same DACs etc. Does the DAC performance improve if you run the Laptop off it's battery ? On battery the fatigue is reduced but not eliminated. Also using an external DAC makes hi-res and lo-res (youtube/internet radio etc) sound fatiguing after a while. I'm currently using some cheap active speakers but found the same with my main system back in the UK, I've also demmed many high end digital sources from DCS Vivaldi down and found the same issue. Link to comment
Rexp Posted July 26, 2020 Author Share Posted July 26, 2020 15 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said: Hi Rexp, much of this topic was covered in the "can bad recordings sound good" thread. I agree with those that advocate better source quality combined with good quality gear and proper implementation. You of course already know what Frank will say ...... Great digital sound has now been available for many years and at "affordable prices" (insert definition here). I suggest start a thread with your gear listed and budget available for possible upgrade paths. I've just stated I've demmed many hi-end digital sources and found them fatiguing and your response is to say no they are not? Link to comment
Rexp Posted July 26, 2020 Author Share Posted July 26, 2020 10 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said: yeh, sorry i missed that. I guess it's true that some high end sources are not what they are cracked up to be. Accepting you have high-end sources, they shouldn't be fatiguing on a decent playback system that is well configured. So what gear are you using? I'm starting from scratch again, what source do you suggest I demo for as little money as possible? Link to comment
Rexp Posted July 26, 2020 Author Share Posted July 26, 2020 1 minute ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said: That's why I suggest start a thread dedicated to gear recommendations and budget rather than come at it from a fatigue perspective. The latter would need to be emphasized as a priority in that thread. The first thing to ask is have you ever heard excellent sound quality that didn't sound fatiguing? I would be listening to different components, preferably auditioning at home if possible. Schiit audio has been recommended in other threads That is a good question, I've heard dsd playback that didn't sound fatiguing but didn't want to go down that route due to limited source material. Ideally a streaming option is my preference. Link to comment
Rexp Posted July 26, 2020 Author Share Posted July 26, 2020 2 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said: There are others that know way more than I about dsd playback. There must be PCM gear that has 'dsd like' sound. They might upsample or whatever. Have you tried software upsampling? I've tried roon upsampling, sounded different not better. I want to go to a shop, listen and buy off the shelf, rather than tinker with software. Link to comment
Rexp Posted July 26, 2020 Author Share Posted July 26, 2020 Just now, Audiophile Neuroscience said: If you give a budget i am sure others will chime in...probably a bigger response in a "what should I buy" thread. Good luck Thanks, I wanted to establish a dedicated thread cos many folks feel the same. Budget is as little as possible. Link to comment
Rexp Posted July 26, 2020 Author Share Posted July 26, 2020 2 hours ago, Blackmorec said: In a really well matched and highly network-optimised system, lo-res material like Swiss Radio Classic (128kbps MP3) will meet every single audiophile desire, from beautiful accurate tone, wide and deep acoustical stage, accurate instrument placement, excellent dynamics and micro-dynamics and most important the overall beauty, rhythm and gestalt of the music. The same system playing hi-res files will exceed most audiophile’s expectations, creating a facsimile of the recording venue and populating it with musicians playing instuments, such that music sounds like its being played by instruments rather than a reproduction of sounds made by instruments. The point is, while the hi-res stuff is stunningly good, the lo-res stuff can be highly enjoyable and rewarding, so not a major sacrifice, especially when the program material is of a very high quality. And just for the record, I prefer the sound of my engine and exhaust to the sound of an MP3 file playing on my car’s ICES. You're a very lucky man, do you think this SQ is attainable at a lower cost than your Innuos Statement? Link to comment
Rexp Posted July 26, 2020 Author Share Posted July 26, 2020 1 hour ago, Summit said: It is important to understand the difference between symptoms and illness. Syndrome is a collective name for a number of symptoms that are typical of a particular disease, but which are not the disease itself. Irritation, listening fatigue and a decreased desire to listen to music in a sound system are symptoms that something is not right. I can not answer what causes the problems you have, but what I can do is tell you what I “know” about this. First of all, it is important to identify and understand which things / devices are the ones that create the problems with listening fatigue. That is easier said than done, but in my opinion there is no other way. What I want to say is that just because you hear the problem more clearly with your separate DAC does not automatically mean that it is the one that generates the listening fatigue you experience. It is possible that your DAC may just let you hear other shortcomings in the system. With that said, a DAC as well as an amplifier or a pair of headphones can all contribute to poor sound and listening fatigue. I've narrowed the problem down to the digital source or source material as when I plug a tape deck in there is zero fatigue. Link to comment
Rexp Posted July 26, 2020 Author Share Posted July 26, 2020 7 minutes ago, semente said: Digital could still be exacerbating a particular issue downstream that is inaudible wiith tape due to the characteristics of the latter. Have you tried comparing streaming vs local (f.e. CD)? It would be very helpful if you described your system. I'm starting from scratch to build a second system in a different country, so far I picked up some cheap powered Edifier speakers that sound ok. Link to comment
Rexp Posted July 26, 2020 Author Share Posted July 26, 2020 9 minutes ago, kumakuma said: Try connecting your speakers to a high quality digital audio player such as the A&K Kann: https://www.whathifi.com/us/astell-kern/kann/review Thanks, thats actually on my list to try. kumakuma 1 Link to comment
Rexp Posted July 27, 2020 Author Share Posted July 27, 2020 12 hours ago, PeterG said: Ironically, the only time I've experienced fatigue was with a very expensive cable between by server and my DAC. You might check this. On building a low fatigue, inexpensive system--I'd go with a stripped down Mac Mini with Amarra, a DAC from Schiit to fit your budget, a $600 amp from Schiit or NAD, and a pair of lower end B&Ws or KEFs for $1K or so. Thanks, I'm looking to get a source that I can demo at a shop. Link to comment
Rexp Posted July 31, 2020 Author Share Posted July 31, 2020 14 hours ago, sdolezalek said: If you are using actively powered speakers are you certain that whatever you feed them post DAC isn't just being run through another internal DAC in the speaker that may make irrelevant everything that comes before them? They have both analog and digital inputs but quite a few folks prefer an analog source even using digital speakers like mine. Link to comment
Popular Post Rexp Posted July 31, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted July 31, 2020 3 hours ago, fas42 said: Currently, when using a source which is in a digital format, which input gives you the least fatiguing sound: analogue in from an external DAC, optical digital, or coaxial digital? Analogue in Solstice380 and Teresa 2 Link to comment
Rexp Posted July 31, 2020 Author Share Posted July 31, 2020 2 hours ago, mevdinc said: Only some active speakers have DSP or a DAC inside. I have been listening to my active ATC speakers for over two decades. I just connect my DAC (with analog volume control) directly to the ATC and enjoy fatigue free sound for hours every day. Do you upsample redbook to DSD using software? Link to comment
Rexp Posted September 23, 2020 Author Share Posted September 23, 2020 So much money has been wasted on fatigue inducing $100k systems like this one: The digital glare comes through loud and clear even via youtube: Link to comment
Rexp Posted September 23, 2020 Author Share Posted September 23, 2020 6 hours ago, Allan F said: Another pablum post completely lacking in any specifics that would be informative. Yes, a typical nonsense post but at least he replied. Most folks dismiss youtube but one thing you can hear is digital distortion caused by source components like in these two videos, same system/track, different source: Link to comment
Rexp Posted September 24, 2020 Author Share Posted September 24, 2020 12 minutes ago, PYP said: Which designers are you thinking about who don't design well? I've certainly been to high-end stores that don't know how to setup a system and/or use equipment/speakers that aren't broken in, but from my own experience, there is a lot of very good gear at many different price points and excellent sound quality is not hard to come by. Just looking at the setups of the folks on these threads, who are very happy with the sound, tells us there are many ways to get great sound and that it happens often. To generalize from a few videos played back on a computer doesn't seem a realistic view of the current state of playback. I posted the videos because one might be able to hear whether a system sounds fatiguing (thread topic) or not. Which video sounds fatiguing to you? Link to comment
Rexp Posted September 24, 2020 Author Share Posted September 24, 2020 55 minutes ago, PYP said: Well, not being familiar with the music, nor the room, nor the recording setup, I'm not sure what I'm hearing. I do know that the speakers on my iMac aren't great. Personally, I'd only be comfortable rendering a judgement if I heard the system live and with music I know well. Fair enough, I wouldn't want to judge audio on iMac speakers either. PYP 1 Link to comment
Rexp Posted September 24, 2020 Author Share Posted September 24, 2020 31 minutes ago, fas42 said: I listened to a couple of videos posted by that chap, whose video is the first posted by @Rexp above. This is one I found that checks the boxes, which is in sharp contrast to some of the others - so, it's not his recording device, room, etc, etc ... when it sounds, "off". You're kidding, right? Link to comment
Rexp Posted September 24, 2020 Author Share Posted September 24, 2020 17 minutes ago, fas42 said: I listened the first time to a couple of spots where the sound just happened to be fine - but then noticed that the quality was varying, as it played ... can you pick this occurring? Just sounds fatiguing to me after a while. Its quite typical of what most digital systems sound like at hi-end shows. Link to comment
Rexp Posted October 2, 2020 Author Share Posted October 2, 2020 10 hours ago, manueljenkin said: Try Wtfplay or daphile. Most of my woes got removed the moment I moved to Wtfplay. Within windows, hysolid and playpcmwin are good. Yes music playback software and os configuration make a meaningful change to sq, atleast in my system. Thanks, yes agree software makes a big difference, bizarrely this audio editing software sounds good: https://www.avs4you.com/avs-audio-editor.aspx The main culprit is the source files though, they come with fatigue baked in. Link to comment
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