Effectiveness of Short Run of Fiber Optic cable.

[asindc]

Hello All,

 

I’m considering re-configuring my streaming setup with the possible use of fiber optic cable.  I just bought an Antipodes CX that I will receive next week.  I had originally considered making a long run of FO cable to replace my current long run (about 20 ft.) of generic originally installed 16-yr-old CAT5 cable from switch near router to wall plate in listening room.  Unfortunately, making that FO run is just simply not practical, if possible at all.  Here is my current setup:

 

Verizon Fios router (also serves as wifi for iPad and iPhone)—CAT5—>Netgear switch GS-116 (all ethernet connected devices in home are plugged into this, including Mac Mini as Roon Server)—CAT5 to listening room—>Wall Plate—WW Starlight 8 Ethernet—>EtherRegen (stock)—>WW Plat. Starlight Ethernet—>Cary DMS-600 Streamer/DAC.

 

 

Since I cannot do the long run of FO to the listening room, I’m thinking of doing a short run from an FMC (placed directly after Fios router) to a dedicated switch placed directly after FMC.  The switch would then convert the FO back to Ethernet for the long run to the listening room.  It would look something like this (changes in bold😞

 

Verizon Fios router (powered by iFi iPower LPS)—WW or Shunyata Ethernet—>FMC—>1m (or whatever length needed) FO Cable—>Buffalo BS-GS2008 (powered by Keces P3)—>WW or Shunyata Ethernet—>Buffalo BS-GS2008 (powered by Keces P3)—>CAT5 to listening room—>Wall Plate—WW Starlight 8 Ethernet—>EtherRegen (powered by Paul Hynes SR5T)—>WW Plat. Starlight Ethernet—>Antipodes CX (Roon Server)—WW Plat. Starlight Ethernet—->Cary DMS-600 Streamer/DAC.  The non-audio ethernet devices would be served via a separate ethernet cable run from the Fios router to the Netgear switch.  The Netgear switch and all other devices in house with SMPS will get Jemeco LPS.

 

 

So my question is: Would it be worthwhile to run an FMC—>1m (or however how long) FO cable from the router into a pair of switches (or just one switch) just to convert it back to ethernet for a 20ft+ run to the listening room?  The ideal would be to isolate the audio stream from the router and everything connected to the other ethernet run from the router, but I don’t know if this would do the trick.

Any other constructive suggestions for the proposed setup are welcome as well.

.

 

[asindc]

Thanks for the reply.  I have tried WiFi but I get too many dropouts, even though my router is in the utility room next to the listening room.  In fact, I use a WiFi extender elsewhere in the house because of dropouts.  I am not using a NAS, and I plan to store local files directly on the Antipodes.

[asindc]

Of the two non-WiFi options you propose—

 

“1) Wall plate > Ethernet > FMC or opticModule > fiber > FMC or opticalModule > Ethernet > Antipodes

2) Wall plate> Ethernet > EtherREGEN > Ethernet > Antipodes”

 

—my proposed new setup would match #2.  I wouldn’t do #1 since I already have the etherRegen.  Given the long run of generic CAT5 to the Wall Plate, what I am trying to do is eliminate as much noise from the chain before the signal is sent along that long run.  That is why I thought doing a FO run, short or long, to the switches near the router might be effective, in addition to what I have been considering (and what you propose) in #2.

[asindc]

Thanks again for the replies.  

 

Making a run of cable to replace the current CAT5 is not practical, otherwise, I would just run FO from the router position.  Does that short run of FO in your most recent proposal above make a difference at that point?  Does it matter how long the FO run is at that point?

[asindc]

2 minutes ago, MarkusBarkus said:

Hey asindc, for what it's worth, I did what you propose--to make a short isolation "break" with 1m fiber optic cable, and I thought it sounded very good.

 

I had a 35' ethernet run, unshielded BTW, from the IT/whiskey closet to the audio area in the basement. 
 

Caveats: The ethernet cable was Cat6 *and* a very nice cryo-ed cable. I used two 10Gtek FMCs and SFPs. 
 

Clearly, we have system differences, but it did add some clarity (remove some noise?) from my run.
 

I thought it was a reasonably cheap "proof of concept" for adding fiber. Based on that success, I just a few days ago added a Sonore OM. Sounds great. 

 

 

 

Thanks, that is quite helpful.  Please let us know how the opticalModule settles in.

[asindc]

2 hours ago, MarkusBarkus said:

asindc, FYI I am also using two daisy-chained Cisco switches in the network here. 
 

I'm sure some would differ in approach, but I placed the optical isolation segment after the Cisco kids. I split off the TV and Sweetie's computer from a Netgear Nigthawk router before the switches:

Modem/Router/Cisco/Cisco/FMC/FO cable/FMC=>ethernet run to etherReGen => Aurender ACS10. 
 

This was all copper, except for the 1meter MM fiber segment. 
 

Unlike your location, although a PITA, I could run the Cat6, so I also pulled a multimode fiber cable, knowing how satisfaction usually evolves into "what if" given enough time. 
 

Although I recently swapped the inexpensive 10Gtek devices for the Sonore OM with fiber for the run, into the eRG, etc. It sounds quite good. Very detailed. 
 

I found no issues with the 1M length in the multimode version. I have no allegiance to any of the companies making FMCs and SFPs, although I have followed the comments here.
 

I selected the 10Gteks because there was a bundled set on Bezos-zon which someone (Alex C?) had noted to a reader looking to try fiber. 

 

After a bit more listening, I plan to add the aforementioned fiber segment back into the network, perhaps between the ISP device and my router.
 

FWIW: I also tried fiber directly out of the Ciscos, with two new SFPs identified as Cisco Friendly, but no-dice. 
 

From what I read here and elsewhere, the Ciscos can be a bit finicky--at least to folks who don't have good network kung-fu--so I just parked that concept; I don't want to get funky-deep into the config world. Good luck.

 

Thanks, this is very helpful.  Much appreciated. 

[asindc]

On 7/23/2020 at 7:52 AM, MarkusBarkus said:

asindc, FYI I am also using two daisy-chained Cisco switches in the network here. 
 

I'm sure some would differ in approach, but I placed the optical isolation segment after the Cisco kids. I split off the TV and Sweetie's computer from a Netgear Nigthawk router before the switches:

Modem/Router/Cisco/Cisco/FMC/FO cable/FMC=>ethernet run to etherReGen => Aurender ACS10. 
 

This was all copper, except for the 1meter MM fiber segment. 
 

Unlike your location, although a PITA, I could run the Cat6, so I also pulled a multimode fiber cable, knowing how satisfaction usually evolves into "what if" given enough time. 
 

Although I recently swapped the inexpensive 10Gtek devices for the Sonore OM with fiber for the run, into the eRG, etc. It sounds quite good. Very detailed. 
 

I found no issues with the 1M length in the multimode version. I have no allegiance to any of the companies making FMCs and SFPs, although I have followed the comments here.
 

I selected the 10Gteks because there was a bundled set on Bezos-zon which someone (Alex C?) had noted to a reader looking to try fiber. 

 

After a bit more listening, I plan to add the aforementioned fiber segment back into the network, perhaps between the ISP device and my router.
 

FWIW: I also tried fiber directly out of the Ciscos, with two new SFPs identified as Cisco Friendly, but no-dice. 
 

From what I read here and elsewhere, the Ciscos can be a bit finicky--at least to folks who don't have good network kung-fu--so I just parked that concept; I don't want to get funky-deep into the config world. Good luck.

 

Question about your CAT6 run: What specific brand cable did you use?  Why CAT6 instead of CAT7 or CAT8?

[asindc]

For the sake of simplicity, here is a diagram of my current setup:

 

 

1) The Antipodes CX will replace the Mac Mini.

     a) The CX will be installed either on the A side of the EtherREGEN or on B side of eR between eR and DMS-600.

2) A Paul Hynes SR5T will replace the stock PS on the EtherREGEN.

 

Proposed changes- Plan A

 

A) Add fiber optic run from utility room (where router is located) to music room.

B) Add oM between router and FO cable.

    (i) Replace stock PS with Farad Super3 LPS.

C) Replace stock PS on Verizon Fios router with HDPlex LPS.

 

Proposed changes-Plan B

A) Add oM between ethernet cable from wall plate and eR.

    (i) Replace stock PS with Farad Super3 LPS;

                               or

       Add 2nd rail to the SR5T.

B) Add FO cable between oM and eR.

 

Proposed changes-Plan B, Part 2

C) Add 2 Buffalo BS-GS2008 switches in series between ethernet cable from router and ethernet cable running to music room.

     (i) Replace stock PSs with dual-rail Keces P3 LPS.

 

So far, the consensus of the advice I have received is that I should put the FO cable as close to the DAC as possible.  I’m going to get some quotes from professional installers on running the FO to the music room.  If it is feasible, I’ll have the installer run CAT6 to the same location.

 

I’d like to hear thoughts on adding the two Buffalo switches in series vs. Plan A, just in case.

 

Please excuse the double posting of the diagram.  I can’t figure out how to delete the 2nd posting.

 

 

[asindc]

1 hour ago, ericuco said:

I would replace the in-wall Cat5 with Cat6 (or 6a) cable and not do fiber optic cable given you are not doing this yourself. The reason is that fiber optic cable comes in different flavors (multi-mode, single mode, LC, SC) so you will be “stuck” with whatever you initially choose. If you were able to easily swap out cables then might be a different story.
 

As such, I would recommend Plan B.
 

I don’t know what adding two additional Buffalo switches add to improving SQ, they are just additional potential sources of noise plus two more power supplies to the mix and even more Ethernet connections and cables. Overly complicated IMHO. I know that some seem to think that the more devices you add the better but I try to minimize the number of devices as each has the potential to add noise either itself or it’s power supply.

 

1 hour ago, MarkusBarkus said:

...may I offer a different opinion? If you are not pulling cable yourself, the largest cost will be labor. FO cable is cheap, IMO. The electrician will not care if he pulls one or two cables.

 

I ran both myself to save my own hassle. IMO the multimode fiber would be a good option for a short pull. If you really want to hedge, pull MM and SM optical, and make yourself crazy listening to three different cable feeds!

 

Honestly, if you're paying someone to pull cable, I would make a bet and pull the FO of your choice. I would/I did, FWIW.
 

From memory, 40' FO cable for my 35' run was about 30-40 bucks, all in.

 

Ericuco, 

 

I hear you, but I plan to audition the long runs for at least a week before having them installed.  My dealer for the Antipodes is also an installer and we have a very good relationship.  I do agree that the Buffalo switch option seems somewhat cumbersome.  I”m just wondering if those switches will add something more if I cannot get the long run of FO installed. 

 

Markus,

 

If the FO install can be done, I do plan on having CAT6 or CAT6a installed at the same time.  I plan on auditioning both SM and MM.  Here is what it would look like if I implement Plan A:

 

 

[asindc]

7 minutes ago, ericuco said:

First off, I am all for using as much fiber optics as possible but you are a radically moving target so it is almost impossible to provide practical advice so I will back out of this thread. Best of luck to you.

 

By the way, if you are looking for adding Buffalo switches:

 

 

 

 

Moving target? How so?

[asindc]

1 hour ago, MarkusBarkus said:

asindc, your proposed config above is essentially what I implemented at my place. I isolated other computing/Wifi stuff from the basement audio using the router to split things, and downstream, the OM for the "homerun" to audio gear (eRG).
 

Since I am able to do the cable/wire work myself, I think this week I will pull a new AC line from the AC panel to the "server room." 
 

That may be overkill (may be?!), but it will separate the router, wifi, OM, etc. from whatever else in on the existing circuit (no idea).

 

plissken is a honcho with this stuff, and his note on future-proofing with upgraded spec seems trick if it fits your plans.

 

I like the fiber here and I think it helps/sounds great. Although I was never able to hear/identify a specific noise profile, I live about two blocks from Harris RF. Those guys are always in vans filled with gear, and walking around testing these amazing military hand-held sat radios. The antennas on their buildings are amazing. 
 

Shielding and optical seem a good idea around here!

 

Thanks.  I got some of my ideas from reading yours and others posts on isolating the music streaming chain from the other ethernet and WiFi devices.  For some time, I also had RFI problems until I implemented proper power grid management.  Running the (relatively) long run of FO is my first choice because the current run of CAT5e goes along the ceiling of the music room, passing several in-ceiling lights, an HDMI cable and power line for ceiling-mounted projector, and down a wall, passing wall-installed lamps with dimmer switches (I know, I know).  My system is rather quiet now, but since FO itself is inexpensive I am going to experiment with it.