Article: CAPS Twenty | Part Two

[Summit]

No up sampling, no fans and no liquid cooling for me 😉.

[Ben-M]

On 7/24/2020 at 6:06 PM, Gavin1977 said:

Could you run this performance benchmark, with and without CUDA enabled?  Would be very interested to see how it performs vs 9900k (which performs pretty similar to my 8086k).  I am considering if it's worth using CUDA to get DSD512 in HQPlayer.

 

 

For HQPlayer, the CUDA offload helps out for optimizing convolution filters for things like DSP room correction. It doesn't directly help with music upsampling. 

 

For the upsampling part, getting the best performance requires the highest 2 core clock speed you can get. More cores doesn't really make a big impact. The CPU with the highest 2 core clock speed is the new i9-10900K at 5.3GHz, if you're lucky. 5.1GHz for sure. 

 

Compared to the recent i7-9900K, it's probably a very close game. But in either case, neither can yet run DSD512 at the highest HQPlayer settings/modulators. 

 

So, there will be a marginal improvement with the newest chip, but it may not have any meaning to you based on what you're trying to achieve. And the GPU's purpose is supporting convolution for room correction/filters, which if you don't do, then won't have a positive impact. 

 

And BTW, all of this is commonly found on the HQPlayer thread. And it's a very friendly and well-serviced thread 😊

 

Nice build, @The Computer Audiophile. The case is a real gem, and those dials are cool differentiators. The 2-piece combo is super interesting and I've enjoyed my own enthusiasm watching the front page again to see the builds like I did years ago for the Zuma 😀

[Jud]

Thank you Chris, I'm very appreciative you did this much work on a beautiful machine, giving the rest of us lots of ideas to play with. The ways I would think of to riff on this for my own preferences:

 

- Yes, definitely dual boot with Linux. That's where I prefer to run HQPlayer, on a lightweight Linux OS like Lubuntu, with a low latency kernel installed. It has a GUI, so you can run Roon if you like. I personally feel it's much easier to get rid of stuff you don't need without causing problems in Linux, and in one of the lightweight distributions there's less to get rid of in the first place. Unlike Windows, everything in the OS is open to you (of course that's an advantage and disadvantage, but if you really screw things up you can blow everything away and start over fresh). Then Windows is available for Audirvana, which like HQPlayer has some filter and modulator flexibility, allows sending DSD512 to the DAC, and doesn't require nearly as much horsepower as HQP.

 

- I would save on the case and the water cooling personally. They're gorgeous and very classy, but my tastes run to "open look" cases, and less expensive water cooling that also works well. I don't need silence because my server's in a different room than the main system. I could stay with my ancient but still versatile and reliable Antec Lanboy ( https://www.amazon.com/Antec-Lanboy-Air-Computer-Modular/dp/B003WMX3SY - out of production and the looks aren't contemporary, but very easy to work with ), or I could go with something like one of the open look Thermaltake cases pictured below.

 

- What to do with that money? I'd opt for the ASUS Maximus XII Extreme mobo, which solves the 10G Ethernet problem ( https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/ROG-MAXIMUS-XII-EXTREME ). And maybe I'd be a pig and go for *two* RTX 2080 Ti cards in SLI mode (depending on availability). Since I'd be using this computer for more than playing music, I'd also go for very fast storage and try to strike a nice balance between memory speed and latency. I've been happy with Samsung storage and G. Skill memory (lower cost since with lower latency I don't need ultimate speed, and makes pretty LED colors in an open case), though Optane is very tempting for both if I wanted to max out the budget. And yep, I'd go for the i9-10900K, fast as blazes and to me not that hugely expensive.

 

Just some fun thoughts about what I might do, though by the time I get around to updating my Win-Lin desktop machine, all of this stuff will certainly be outdated.

 

 

[4est]

13 hours ago, Jud said:

Thank you Chris, I'm very appreciative you did this much work on a beautiful machine, giving the rest of us lots of ideas to play with. The ways I would think of to riff on this for my own preferences:

 

- Yes, definitely dual boot with Linux. That's where I prefer to run HQPlayer, on a lightweight Linux OS like Lubuntu, with a low latency kernel installed. It has a GUI, so you can run Roon if you like. I personally feel it's much easier to get rid of stuff you don't need without causing problems in Linux, and in one of the lightweight distributions there's less to get rid of in the first place. Unlike Windows, everything in the OS is open to you (of course that's an advantage and disadvantage, but if you really screw things up you can blow everything away and start over fresh). Then Windows is available for Audirvana, which like HQPlayer has some filter and modulator flexibility, allows sending DSD512 to the DAC, and doesn't require nearly as much horsepower as HQP.

 

- I would save on the case and the water cooling personally. They're gorgeous and very classy, but my tastes run to "open look" cases, and less expensive water cooling that also works well. I don't need silence because my server's in a different room than the main system. I could stay with my ancient but still versatile and reliable Antec Lanboy ( https://www.amazon.com/Antec-Lanboy-Air-Computer-Modular/dp/B003WMX3SY - out of production and the looks aren't contemporary, but very easy to work with ), or I could go with something like one of the open look Thermaltake cases pictured below.

 

- What to do with that money? I'd opt for the ASUS Maximus XII Extreme mobo, which solves the 10G Ethernet problem ( https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/ROG-MAXIMUS-XII-EXTREME ). And maybe I'd be a pig and go for *two* RTX 2080 Ti cards in SLI mode (depending on availability). Since I'd be using this computer for more than playing music, I'd also go for very fast storage and try to strike a nice balance between memory speed and latency. I've been happy with Samsung storage and G. Skill memory (lower cost since with lower latency I don't need ultimate speed, and makes pretty LED colors in an open case), though Optane is very tempting for both if I wanted to max out the budget. And yep, I'd go for the i9-10900K, fast as blazes and to me not that hugely expensive.

 

Just some fun thoughts about what I might do, though by the time I get around to updating my Win-Lin desktop machine, all of this stuff will certainly be outdated.

 

 

Whoa... Two 2080ti? What else are you looking to do with a box like that Jud?

[The Computer Audiophile]

18 hours ago, Jud said:

Thank you Chris, I'm very appreciative you did this much work on a beautiful machine, giving the rest of us lots of ideas to play with. The ways I would think of to riff on this for my own preferences:

Thanks for the kind words Jud. I'm thrilled that you see this build for what it is, a starting point and demonstration of what's possible. 

 

Some people are building the identical system and I know it's the right move for them. Others are picking and choosing the best parts that fit their needs and building from there. 

 

Love the case in your images. There's nothing wrong with this stuff looking better than a Compaq Presario.

 

Now I need to install my M.2 that's on my desk, to dual boot Linux. 

[Jud]

6 hours ago, 4est said:

Whoa... Two 2080ti? What else are you looking to do with a box like that Jud?

 

Well, now that I'm set to retire in under a year, I could Bitcoin mine my way to bankruptcy! 😉

 

But actually it would be interesting/useful for convolution filters for room response purposes, Folding@Home, SETI, and other amateur science projects, or even playing games.

[The Computer Audiophile]

On 7/25/2020 at 9:04 AM, EdmontonCanuck said:

 

Why would you care to split up Roon and HQPlayer in a server machine that's sending a digital output stream to a renderer? As long as the machine is powerful enough to handle the load, splitting them across different servers would be complete overkill.

 

The same goes for a fancy linear power supply....why? The point of the server is to produce a digital stream that can be sent to the renderer. Put a good power supply on the renderer where the DAC is attached if you're worried about electrical noise.

 

As for liquid cooling, that would be to keep the server as silent as possible, something to consider if the server is in the same room as your audio gear. I wouldn't bother with it at all if the server were in a closet in a separate room where you couldn't hear it in operation.

 

The server doesn't *play* music per se....it just produces the stream to send to the renderer.

 

My thoughts as well. There is no need to split anything on this workhorse PC. 

 

A linear PSU on this machine would be insane. The amount of power required by the CPU and GPU is well over what any linear solution that I'm aware of could supply.

 

The main reason I like liquid cooling is to run the CPU and GPU at low temps and prevent thermal throttling. 

[baconbrain]

What an excellent looking build! Extremely clean and sleek.

 

Congrats on what you have accomplished. The case is fantastic and the guages are really the icing on the cake.

 

Very impressive.

[MarkS]

I missed it; is solitaire still included? Lol. 
 

Incredible project vastly beyond me. Congratulations!

[Summit]

On 7/26/2020 at 11:34 PM, Jud said:

Thank you Chris, I'm very appreciative you did this much work on a beautiful machine, giving the rest of us lots of ideas to play with. The ways I would think of to riff on this for my own preferences:

 

- Yes, definitely dual boot with Linux. That's where I prefer to run HQPlayer, on a lightweight Linux OS like Lubuntu, with a low latency kernel installed. It has a GUI, so you can run Roon if you like. I personally feel it's much easier to get rid of stuff you don't need without causing problems in Linux, and in one of the lightweight distributions there's less to get rid of in the first place. Unlike Windows, everything in the OS is open to you (of course that's an advantage and disadvantage, but if you really screw things up you can blow everything away and start over fresh). Then Windows is available for Audirvana, which like HQPlayer has some filter and modulator flexibility, allows sending DSD512 to the DAC, and doesn't require nearly as much horsepower as HQP.

 

- I would save on the case and the water cooling personally. They're gorgeous and very classy, but my tastes run to "open look" cases, and less expensive water cooling that also works well. I don't need silence because my server's in a different room than the main system. I could stay with my ancient but still versatile and reliable Antec Lanboy ( https://www.amazon.com/Antec-Lanboy-Air-Computer-Modular/dp/B003WMX3SY - out of production and the looks aren't contemporary, but very easy to work with ), or I could go with something like one of the open look Thermaltake cases pictured below.

 

- What to do with that money? I'd opt for the ASUS Maximus XII Extreme mobo, which solves the 10G Ethernet problem ( https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/ROG-MAXIMUS-XII-EXTREME ). And maybe I'd be a pig and go for *two* RTX 2080 Ti cards in SLI mode (depending on availability). Since I'd be using this computer for more than playing music, I'd also go for very fast storage and try to strike a nice balance between memory speed and latency. I've been happy with Samsung storage and G. Skill memory (lower cost since with lower latency I don't need ultimate speed, and makes pretty LED colors in an open case), though Optane is very tempting for both if I wanted to max out the budget. And yep, I'd go for the i9-10900K, fast as blazes and to me not that hugely expensive.

 

Just some fun thoughts about what I might do, though by the time I get around to updating my Win-Lin desktop machine, all of this stuff will certainly be outdated.

 

 

 

Lots of fans, colors and other bling, are they perhaps some fancy juice machines? 

 

[cat6man]

Very nice work Chris.

Do you plan to do any listening comparisons (or have I missed it)?

How does it compare to a simple NUC server with a good power supply (HDPlex or better) streaming to something like an ultraRendu?

 

There is a lot of space between that and a Taiko extreme.

I think a lot of us want to know where your design falls in that range.........and only you have one!

[The Computer Audiophile]

17 hours ago, cat6man said:

Very nice work Chris.

Do you plan to do any listening comparisons (or have I missed it)?

How does it compare to a simple NUC server with a good power supply (HDPlex or better) streaming to something like an ultraRendu?

 

There is a lot of space between that and a Taiko extreme.

I think a lot of us want to know where your design falls in that range.........and only you have one!

HI Cat6man, good questions. 

 

This is kind of a strange spot to be in because there is only one CAPS Twenty and it's the only server that does what it does. I can't compare to a NUC because the NUC can't come close to running EC modulators at DSD256. The whole reason for this much computing power is to run DSP that requires it. A NUC is a different animal entirely and for a different use case. 

 

If someone doesn't want to run heavy DSP, s/he should stick with a NUC or one of the many commercially available options. 

[57gold]

Attended a convention in February of this year in London before the world shut down, the ICE show on gaming - casino, internet and sports betting, for business reasons.  My firm arranges project financing for resort casinos, amongst other businesses.  

 

Was a large show, bigger than the one in LV and in one corner of the huge convention facility were displays of PCs like the huge and colorful ones above, actually took photos of them for my 30 year old son who has built a few PCs, as I had never seen anything like them.  They were in a section of the show dedicated to competitive computer gaming, like Starcraft for $ prizes in tournaments...I didn't even know this existed.  

 

Anyways, these things looked cooler than heck and I remember thinking that the ones with double video cards and liquid cooling systems would probably rock with HQ Player cranking DSD512.  Then I wondered about noise, not an issue with thousands milling around a convention...probably was an early super spreader event looking back.

[AudioDoctor]

SO @Jud I am glad to see you talking about Linux here because I am building a CAPS myself at the moment and trying to decide if I can run Linux on it with my level of knowledge about it, nearly zero, if I will be able to easily transfer files to it over the network from my iMac, and control it remotely from the same computer. I did not know Lubuntu was a thing either, I had planned on Ubuntu just to make things easy on me. I do have and use Forklift, will I be able to continue using that to transfer files to the CAPS machine?

 

I have so many questions.

[firedog]

On 7/26/2020 at 3:38 PM, Ben-M said:

HQPlayer, the CUDA offload helps out for optimizing convolution filters for things like DSP room correction. It doesn't directly help with music upsampling. 

 

For the upsampling part, getting the best performance requires the highest 2 core clock speed you can get. More cores doesn't really make a big impact. The CPU with the highest 2 core clock speed is the new i9-10900K at 5.3GHz, if you're lucky. 5.1GHz for sure. 

As far as I understood Miska in a previous comment, you do need CUDA offloading if you want to successfully use some of the more demanding filters at 256 DSD upsampling - filters like Sinc-M with EC modulators. Apparently you can't get there without CUDA. I have a i7 10700K, and can't do that upasampling, modulator, and filter. I can accomplish most of the other filters with the EC moduators.

[AudioDoctor]

On 7/27/2020 at 11:10 AM, The Computer Audiophile said:

There's nothing wrong with this stuff looking better than a Compaq Presario.

 

Oh god the memories...  I had one of those a very long time ago.

 

Edit: I just added up the price of all the things I have ordered for my CAPS build. I shouldn't have done that.

[AudioDoctor]

Well, I had to go to 4 different websites, and one store here in the metro, but I now have every single part down to the fittings, including the GPU at not a penny over retail price and brand new.

 

Building should begin next weekend if everything arrives on time.

[The Computer Audiophile]

18 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

Well, I had to go to 4 different websites, and one store here in the metro, but I now have every single part down to the fittings, including the GPU at not a penny over retail price and brand new.

 

Building should begin next weekend if everything arrives on time.

Let me know if you need help. 

[AudioDoctor]

8 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Let me know if you need help. 

 

Thanks Chris. I ordered extra fittings and extra tubing, just in case, and 2 bottles of coloring. Once I remembered that TitanRig also sold the EKWB stuff, I ordered the stuff that EKWB themselves are out of. I found your list of parts too, that was a huge help. Sometimes I am a little slow.

 

I probably should order some extra bottles of whiskey as well...

[Ben-M]

9 hours ago, firedog said:

As far as I understood Miska in a previous comment, you do need CUDA offloading if you want to successfully use some of the more demanding filters at 256 DSD upsampling - filters like Sinc-M with EC modulators. Apparently you can't get there without CUDA. I have a i7 10700K, and can't do that upasampling, modulator, and filter. I can accomplish most of the other filters with the EC moduators.

I might have gotten it wrong, but I'd prefer the big dog to weigh in on the effect of the GPU for pure upsampling modulators and filters on his software, without room correction or other DSP plugins. 

 

In any case, I'm looking forward to those new Nvidia 3090 TIs to release so I can buy one up and see if it makes any difference. 

[Jud]

On 8/17/2020 at 10:35 AM, AudioDoctor said:

SO @Jud I am glad to see you talking about Linux here because I am building a CAPS myself at the moment and trying to decide if I can run Linux on it with my level of knowledge about it, nearly zero, if I will be able to easily transfer files to it over the network from my iMac, and control it remotely from the same computer. I did not know Lubuntu was a thing either, I had planned on Ubuntu just to make things easy on me. I do have and use Forklift, will I be able to continue using that to transfer files to the CAPS machine?

 

I have so many questions.

 

Howdy. 🙂 I'm pretty close to zero on Linux myself - just know how to do a couple specific things that I Google when something doesn't work. But somehow I manage to muddle through, so it can't be that hard. A little irritating once in a while when tutorials and guides assume a higher level of knowledge than you have. 

 

Network transfers: Linux is so network-oriented it's almost counter-intuitive, because stuff you need apps for on other OSs Linux has built-in, or nearly so. Just install Samba (might be called CIFS or something like that, depending on the distribution) and your Linux box should be findable from your Mac. You can use Forklift I imagine. I keep copies of my music files on drives attached to both my MacBook Pro and my Win/Lin desktop in sync using ChronoSync ( https://www.econtechnologies.com/chronosync/overview.html ), but I don't know if you'll need anything like that.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Guys, the updated version of the graphics card has ben released. The 3080 / 3090 series. I wonder if the inlet and outlet for liquid cooling are in the same place. If so, I could drop one in without re-routing / re-bending my tubes. 

 

https://www.evga.com/articles/01457/evga-30-Series-watercooling/hc.asp

 

[EVGA_Lee]

7 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Hi Guys, the updated version of the graphics card has ben released. The 3080 / 3090 series. I wonder if the inlet and outlet for liquid cooling are in the same place. If so, I could drop one in without re-routing / re-bending my tubes. 

 

https://www.evga.com/articles/01457/evga-30-Series-watercooling/hc.asp

 

Thanks for noticing!

 

Yes, the inlets and outles should be in substantially the same place, but it's always possible a few small adjustments may be needed.  The similar models to yours are the XC3 versions. We would recommend using the left side as the inlet (when looking at it straight on) for best performance and flow, but either side can be used as an inlet or outlet.

[CAPS Admirer]

@The Computer AudiophileHello. I hope I'm not being too much of a bother, but I was wondering if there was any chance you could upload the owners guide for the XFORMA case. I don't know who else to turn to. I did try messaging you on Twitter.

[emcdade]

I remember building in a Silverstone TJ-07 back in the day, fond memories!  It was a luxury then to not have your hands sliced up from a cheap steel case.