DENAFRIPS TERMINATOR GOES PLUS

[luisma]

Thank you, good that all effects are off but from the first image I see the internal decoded value 1411 Mbps which is high considering for PCM (I think this is internal sampling from the Antipodes) then downsampled to 2.822 (DSD64), second image shows DSD128 passed as DSD128 but I think it is going through some upsampling which is not relevant to my question.

 

This is good thank you, it would be very interesting to test IMO Gaia + T+ vs T+ alone being fed with DSD512 and PCM1536 (or 1411) and listen to the results,

 

There is nothing wrong using low sampling rates as long as the content / source is good, I am just curious

 

Thank you for posting ....

 

Mostly surprised by your results, I was not expecting the Gaia + T+ being even slightly superior to T+ alone

 

[richard_crl032]

4 hours ago, luisma said:

Thank you, good that all effects are off but from the first image I see the internal decoded value 1411 Mbps which is high considering for PCM (I think this is internal sampling from the Antipodes) then downsampled to 2.822 (DSD64), second image shows DSD128 passed as DSD128 but I think it is going through some upsampling which is not relevant to my question.

 

This is good thank you, it would be very interesting to test IMO Gaia + T+ vs T+ alone being fed with DSD512 and PCM1536 (or 1411) and listen to the results,

 

There is nothing wrong using low sampling rates as long as the content / source is good, I am just curious

 

Thank you for posting ....

 

Mostly surprised by your results, I was not expecting the Gaia + T+ being even slightly superior to T+ alone

 

 

Hi Luis,

 

Sorry for the confusion .. the photos on audio info are both for the usb bridge signature provided by moode os .. one for 44.1khz flac and the other for dsd64 files.

 

For the Antipodes I do not know how to provide such audio info running the squeezelite player.

 

On the Tplus led indicators on its front panel, both usb bridge signature and Antipodes simply indicate 44.1khz and dsd64 and frankly do not understand why also 🙏.

 

Guess too much rantings from my 3 consecutive posts which confuses and please let me summarize again in my system from what I hear via both my main speakers and headphone:

 

1. Gaia+Tplus is not always better ....  with the Antipodes usb output, I preferred direct to Tplus without the gaia. With the Antipodes connected to the gaia, I lost the crispness, extension as well as midrange clarity ... music is less engaging in a nutshell.

 

2.  all else, including also usb output from the usb bridge signature, I prefers Gaia+Tplus which I find to have greater "solidality", clarity and resolution ... music is more dense and enjoyable as if all gets snapped into place. This is very obvious also with aes output from my Bel Canto fm tuner which I will certainly connect via Gaia.

 

My conclusion is that improvement of going via gaia or not depends on the quality of the source being used. I am also bias and believe that the clock synced devices said to reduce jitters is a big plus of this denafrips stack of ddc, cdp and dac with the best ocxo clock just cm away in the Tplus dac.

 

Hope this clarifies and cheers.

 

Richard

[richard_crl032]

Hi,

 

For those having gaia and avatar and certainly should daisy chain them to T+, please find below required 75 ohm parts (2 dual bnc and 1 load resistors) in additional to 3 bnc clock cables that I found sounding  better that your usd1-2 cheap ones:

 

https://sg.rs-online.com/web/p/coaxial-adapters/1120830/

 

https://sg.rs-online.com/web/p/rf-terminators/7009316/

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

 

PS: dual T adaptor not preferred due to limit in between space  behind equipment

 

 

[Blake]

New Terminator Plus review in from Steve Guttenberg

 

 

[richard_crl032]

2 hours ago, Blake said:

New Terminator Plus review in from Steve Guttenberg

 

 

Hi Blake,

 

Nice and tks .. I commented per screenshots.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

 

[divertiti]

@richard_crl032 I'm not sure the clock sync would have changed Steve's opinion. Having to spend more money to purchase more boxes in order to get the best out of a $6k piece isn't all that appealing to most people. More importantly perhaps is that Steve isn't a detail audiophile guy. He likes tone and warmth, hence this review of the plus. He very likely prefers the stock DSP on the original Terminator as well. I don't think clock syncing for an even cleaner signal is his cup of tea.

[richard_crl032]

38 minutes ago, divertiti said:

@richard_crl032 I'm not sure the clock sync would have changed Steve's opinion. Having to spend more money to purchase more boxes in order to get the best out of a $6k piece isn't all that appealing to most people. More importantly perhaps is that Steve isn't a detail audiophile guy. He likes tone and warmth, hence this review of the plus. He very likely prefers the stock DSP on the original Terminator as well. I don't think clock syncing for an even cleaner signal is his cup of tea.

 

Hi Blake,

 

Indeed and he is having the Jay Audio's cdt2 without clock input and limited i2s hmdi output as I did which I sold used and made a bit to get the Avator with clock input to Tplus' ocxo clock ... no extra box actually but just a different and probably better matched cdp from same Denafrips with the big step up in sound quality of single and oxco clock.

 

Ymmv but I will not want my dac like some tube dacs for tonality or warm that primarily all failed but instead of highest resolution possible and leave the tonality or odd harmonics to analog stages e.g. tube preamp, tube/class A amp or speakers or even cablings but not to have irreplacably lost resolution for mistaken warm or tonality upstream.

 

Not sure what you had experienced when synced compatible devices to your Tplus which I would described more of i2s goodies ... more solid imaging, more transparent, darker background and certainly no loss of tonality or warmth without sync that I will not go back to. 

 

Moreover, it is just via some cheap Canare bnc clock cables , bcn adaptors and 75 ohm load for a grand total of usd100 to get the coveted technology of mega $ esoteric, dCs, gimm etc. which is a joke against how much we are willing to spend on cabling.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

[Blake]

@richard_crl032  I think in your post above you are actually responding to @divertiti

[richard_crl032]

3 minutes ago, Blake said:

@richard_crl032  I think in your post above you are actually responding to @divertiti

 

Hi Blake/Divetiti,

 

Oops .. 2.34am here and after a long day, a brisk walk, bike ride and late supper, I erred again .. with apology.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

[divertiti]

@richard_crl032 I totally get what you are saying, and personally I'm in agreement. My observation was just that Steve isn't the kind of audio guy to seek ultimate transparency and nth degree of black background. He values smooth and organic sound. Heck, he loves the Border Patro SE DAC which I thought was so colored it was unlistenable. It's just a matter of a taste.

[Rune]

Must admit that I also find it a turnoff if a Gaia is needed  to make the TP+ Sound its best. I see no reason why USB cannot sound just as good as i2s unless it has a bad USB implementation which is strange because the new USB interface is highlighted as upgraded.

[Blake]

Gaia is not required per se. 

 

It just further improves things in terms of enhanced resolution, clarity and sound staging.

 

Some users may actually prefer USB direct in or my even prefer the original Terminator with the original Terminator board (Steve does).  Me?  If it is on the recording, I want to hear it.  Others don't care about that sort of thing.

 

Sort of like power conditioning, a separate dedicated power circuit, cables, a better server, a better endpoint, linear power supplies, after market footers, etc.  None of it is "required".  This isn't the only DAC out there that can be improved with a high quality D/D converter.  See Berkeley for example.  And no, I am not making any blanket statements here.  This is a case by case basis thing.  By the way, USB direct in to the Terminator Plus sounds absolutely incredible to me.

 

No DAC will satisfy everyone.  The Terminator Plus hits all the buttons for me, but at this level each prospective customer needs to try in their own system which is admittedly difficult as there are not many manufacturers that will loan out DAC's or provide 100% money back guaranty.  You do your homework and then roll the dice. 

 

I see people posting that if I pay $______ dollars for product X, that product should be perfect and incapable of being improved with any cable or upstream device.  It should be immune to such things.  In theory, that is a nice thought, but in practice it just doesn't work like that.  I wish that was not the case but it is.

 

 

 

 

[richard_crl032]

4 hours ago, Rune said:

Must admit that I also find it a turnoff if a Gaia is needed  to make the TP+ Sound its best. I see no reason why USB cannot sound just as good as i2s unless it has a bad USB implementation which is strange because the new USB interface is highlighted as upgraded.

 

Hi Rune,

 

You dun need a Gaia for TP and certainly can have Avatar directly synced to TP's ocxo clock instead of its femto clock which results in a single clock which I believe improve jitter and left with those from cables, connection and environment.

 

I am only using a Gaia only to have digital AES from from my Bel Canto to have synced clock to TP's ocxo clock and i2s which I find in my system obvious step up in SQ improvement.

 

For usb vs single synced ocxo clock and i2s in my system, it is  mixed bag ... my usd300 allo usb bridge sounded better via the Gaia but not my Antipodes EX.

 

I am bias on having single synced ocxo clock and this is not on TP itself but it allows me to do so via such a route.

 

Having the Gaia now is really not bad at all since I have almost double the allowable input sources that I will never be able to exhaust.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

[StreamFidelity]

The T+ has been playing for a few days. I only use USB via the JCAT USB XE Card from fis Audio PC.

 

As part of my experiments with ReClocking, I found that SQ increased significantly with high-quality clocks in the signal path. The most important clock for me is the clock in the DAC. And here Denafrips seems to have invested well.

 

 

Between the digital board (left) and the analog R2R board (right) there is a gap for galvanic isolation. Only the OCXO clock board connects both areas.

 

 

The puristic approach of Denafrips suits me. Remote control? Volume control? Headphone output? There is none. 👍 So the T+ is not for everyone. The fewer functions there are, the less can break down or produce malfunctions.

 

I solved the small range of functions very comfortably for myself. Although the pre-amplifier function is missing, I go directly to the T + A M10 power amplifiers via XLR. 4.4Vrms output voltage is easily sufficient for this. I control the volume digitally via the HQPlayer. With this quality there is no loss of resolution and the advantages of perfect channel separation, channel equality and noise suppression can be taken with you. I choose music through Roon.

 

 

I bought it privately and have no business relationships with Denafrips

[mevdinc]

1 hour ago, StreamFidelity said:

The T+ has been playing for a few days. I only use USB via the JCAT USB XE Card from fis Audio PC.

 

As part of my experiments with ReClocking, I found that SQ increased significantly with high-quality clocks in the signal path. The most important clock for me is the clock in the DAC. And here Denafrips seems to have invested well.

 

 

Between the digital board (left) and the analog R2R board (right) there is a gap for galvanic isolation. Only the OCXO clock board connects both areas.

 

 

The puristic approach of Denafrips suits me. Remote control? Volume control? Headphone output? There is none. 👍 So the T+ is not for everyone. The fewer functions there are, the less can break down or produce malfunctions.

 

I solved the small range of functions very comfortably for myself. Although the pre-amplifier function is missing, I go directly to the T + A M10 power amplifiers via XLR. 4.4Vrms output voltage is easily sufficient for this. I control the volume digitally via the HQPlayer. With this quality there is no loss of resolution and the advantages of perfect channel separation, channel equality and noise suppression can be taken with you. I choose music through Roon.

 

 

I bought it privately and have no business relationships with Denafrips

I agree with you about digital volume control being good enough. Especially with the latest improvements in software volume control implementations it's not absolutely necessary to have a preamp in the DAC unless one needs analog inputs.
Of course, Denafrips can also easily implement the latest digital volume control in their DACs, as Lumin has done with their DACs and streamers.
 

[richard_crl032]

19 minutes ago, mevdinc said:

I agree with you about digital volume control being good enough. Especially with the latest improvements in software volume control implementations it's not absolutely necessary to have a preamp in the DAC unless one needs analog inputs.
Of course, Denafrips can also easily implement the latest digital volume control in their DACs, as Lumin has done with their DACs and streamers.
 

 

Hi Mevdinc,

 

Indeed preamp for analog sources like vinyl playback ...

 

Additionally, I do like tube preamp to add a bit of "musicality" which is perhaps a bit old school but not ashame of it.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

[StreamFidelity]

2 minutes ago, richard_crl032 said:

Additionally, I do like tube preamp to add a bit of "musicality" which is perhaps a bit old school but not ashame of it.

 

I like it! This also works with power amplifiers. 😉

 

 

Cheers

 

Gabriel

[luisma]

@StreamFidelity, Hi Gabriel thank you for posting.

Have you tried the T+ without HQP in the chain? I know you (and myself) are accustomed to the HQP sound per se but was wondering if you have any experience with just the DAC in NOS (or OS) mode

Also I don't remember if you were using Roon or just HQP to handle your library

Thanks again

All the best

Luis

 

[StreamFidelity]

14 minutes ago, luisma said:

Have you tried the T+ without HQP in the chain?

 

Hi Luis, I carried out various tests with and without HQP with my old Termi. NOS and OS, PCM and DSD. I kept coming back to the HQP ASDME7EC / DSD 256 and Termi in NOS. The algorithms of the HQPlayer are just too good. And I don't know any DAC with a computing power of 8 x 4.2GHz (i9-9900K overclocked).

 

I can't do it without HQP because I don't have a preamplifier and I couldn't control the volume. But I will definitely try PCM again.

 

Below is my signal path with Roon on NAS & HQP on fis Audio PC.

 

[richard_crl032]

Hi,

 

Hope not and just in case especially those not using denafrips products at default i2s hdmi setting, please note both standard and plus version of Terminator is default at negative phase after powering up else it will not sound best nor right .. if you are not sensitive to correct phase and somehow missed RYFM.

 

My audible illusion L3A preamp is also negative phase and hence no issue from day 1 ... free upgrade in sound quality if you had been hearing wrongly phased setup.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

 

 

 

[orosie]

So, does Negative Phase mean out of phase, and Positive Phase mean in phase?  Why would Denafrips default to a setting of out of phase?

 

PS Audio has this option on their DS DAC, but they call it "in phase" and "out of phase".  This is absolute phase we are talking about, right?  It is very hard to notice a difference when toggling the phase button, so I am assuming both channels are switched, which makes it much harder to tell then when listening to speakers in which one is wired out of phase.  

[Dev]

I don't have a T+, but I do have a T and I haven't noticed any difference whatsoever toggling this phase button. I also had a PS Audio DS and the "phase" toggle didn't matter either. I could be wrong but think for a full balanced differential preamps (which I use), it would not matter, however it might effect a single ended preamp design. Anybody can shred some light on this ?

[orosie]

1 hour ago, Dev said:

I don't have a T+, but I do have a T and I haven't noticed any difference whatsoever toggling this phase button. I also had a PS Audio DS and the "phase" toggle didn't matter either. I could be wrong but think for a full balanced differential preamps (which I use), it would not matter, however it might effect a single ended preamp design. Anybody can shred some light on this ?

 

Good to know, as my PrimaLuna Evo 400 is also a full balanced differential design.  Yes, anyone that can elaborate would be much appreciated!

[richard_crl032]

3 hours ago, orosie said:

So, does Negative Phase mean out of phase, and Positive Phase mean in phase?  Why would Denafrips default to a setting of out of phase?

 

PS Audio has this option on their DS DAC, but they call it "in phase" and "out of phase".  This is absolute phase we are talking about, right?  It is very hard to notice a difference when toggling the phase button, so I am assuming both channels are switched, which makes it much harder to tell then when listening to speakers in which one is wired out of phase.  

 

Hi Orosie,

 

Affirmative but there is technical difference between phase and just polarity by switching speaker cables.

 

Not sure why but for my audible illusion l3a preamp and previous conrad johnson equipment and others, it is to avoid more circuitry to reverse polarity that designers feel detrimental to SQ:

 

The use of a single gain stage means that the L3A main outputs (but not the buffered tape and surround-sound outputs) invert signal polarity. Since no phase-inversion circuitry is used, be sure to reverse speaker cable polarity at either the power amp or speaker terminals in order to maintain correct absolute polarity.

 

I can surely tell in my system especially on often centered midrange vocal being diffused when out of phase and it will help further if you play only a single test tone .. I also have a usd10 phase checker used in car audio tuning to confirm.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

 

[richard_crl032]

3 hours ago, Dev said:

I don't have a T+, but I do have a T and I haven't noticed any difference whatsoever toggling this phase button. I also had a PS Audio DS and the "phase" toggle didn't matter either. I could be wrong but think for a full balanced differential preamps (which I use), it would not matter, however it might effect a single ended preamp design. Anybody can shred some light on this ?

 

Hi Dev,

 

Do not think it matters if balanced or SE wired but I had err on my audible illusion L3A being negative phase when it is actually negative polarity .. with apology.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard