DENAFRIPS TERMINATOR GOES PLUS

[richard_crl032]

Hi mevdinc,

 

While is usd2k more than the standard Denafrip that I previously owned, the improvement is much more than any upgrade in power cords, interconnects, speaker cables, power regenerator etc. can do for my system.

I had the luxury of having the demo unit for 1 week but it only took the usual warm up of about an hour to know that I wanted it.

In comparison, the standard Terminator sounds veiled which I would have never thought is an adjective to describe it.

Midbass and bass are tighter which makes all genres more tuneful or I dare say more obvious PRAT that makes my system more musical and I feel more of the reported 23hz of my Salon 2 speakers.

Highs and midranges together with midbass and bass notes are easier to be differentiated and simply "pops" ... not sure if due to yet another 3db improvement in the SNR ratio at now 137db or its another another 2db improvement in its dynamic range.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/old-king-of-r2r-dac-is-dead-denafrips-terminator-plus-terminator-arrives.936310/

 

 

[richard_crl032]

2 hours ago, matthias said:

 

Richard,

 

please can you compare the SQ of your new Denafrips Avatar vs the Jays Audio transport as a combo with the new Terminator Plus

 

Thanks

 

Matt

 

Hi Matt,

 

Sure .. to my non professional review wordings as well as not exactly to your request with mentioned disclaimers on the same famed cdm 4/19 transport while noting Jay's is =>50% higher pricing and hence I managed to sell odd my Jay's at sgd100 more for new Avatar to first offer locally. 

 

Noted also while I had both the standard and plus Terminators, the Avatar was with me for about 1 week prior before the Terminator Plus i.e. more impression with the standard Terminator.  With this said, I will first share on using both with the standard Terminator and Avatar sounded below subjectively at the least in my system and preference:

 

1. Bigger i.e. wider and taller

2. More involving i.e. more dense, more detailed

3. Tighter midbass and bass i.e. more PRAT and hence also bsck to 2. more involving ... I appreciates now more how critical bass notes are on PRAT or boogy feel to music when calls for

 

One disclaimer here is that Jay's was on AES digital output as i2S A hdmi input to Terminator is occupied by NuPrime Omnia S1 while the Avatar had i2S RJ45 output. Hope you had experienced my very much preference for i2S connection and above is best estimated to be about 30% off if both Avatar and Jay's are on i2S A hmdi output.

 

Motivated by the improvement, I proceed to request for the demo Terminator Plus with the hope that it is only marginally better than the standard to avoid spending not only usd2k but more because I had to sell the standard Terminator at used unit price*. 

 

However this was not to be as you are already aware and again disclaimer on Jay's as I was already very much into using the Avatar while Jay's is still on AES digital output as I did not disconnect i2s hdmi output of the Omnia S1:

 

4. Same as above 1, 2 and 3

5. Darker background that made music "pops"

6. With synced clock possible only on the Avatar, 1, 2, 3 and 5 just pulls ahead to yet another estimated subjective 30%

 

Hope this helps and not raise more doubts to you but I no longer had both Jay's and Avator with Terminator Plus now for your exact request.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

 

*I am shy to share the big loss again to first offer after just 10 mths but also hope it tells you that it was a easy decision for me for purely improvement in sound quality alone for the Terminator Plus since already decided on the Avatar first that resolved my wish on all possible i2S connectivity

 

 

- 

[richard_crl032]

Hi Black,

Congras !

Welcome to the bright side 🥳

Cheers 

Richard

[richard_crl032]

https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/denafrips7/

 

Glad clock outputs of TP is finally explored here albiet I need to test out gaia to sync instead of daisy chain my Avatar and demo gaia next week .. and to be continued.

 

I prefer direct connection to TP of the Avatar and also my Antipodes ex via usb but will be interesting especially if conversion to i2s in gaia of this usb and synced clock to TP's ocxo clock will be better sound quality.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

[richard_crl032]

Powess of synced digital components

[richard_crl032]

On 7/24/2020 at 5:27 AM, ConcreteCow said:

Hi Blake,

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the T+ 

Congratulations on your new acquisition!

I'm still deciding whether to go for it.....

 

Hi Concretecow,

 

Taken the plunge yet on the T+ ?

 

Since you are on D90 dac and not having gaia or avatar for added synced components, standard T may also be considered especially if you can get a used one at 50% of the T+.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

 

[richard_crl032]

4 minutes ago, matthias said:

Hi guys,

 

is there already a consensus if the additional Gaia is an improvement on the Terminator Plus when the input is via USB?

 

Thanks

 

Matt

 

Hi Matt,

 

No .. only Blake has both the gaia and T+ so far that I am aware of and he is busy as well as wanting to burn in his cablea etc.

 

I am a hair to getting the demo gaia but difficult to schedule as there is a queue of potential customers wanting I think 😅

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

[richard_crl032]

expand...

Hi All,

First of all, daisy chain of Avatar and gaia input to oxco clock output of T+ works !! This is really a denafrips ecosystem of digital playback though not advertised as such by denafrips or mentioned in detailed review by 6moon.

Secondly, key objective of getting aes-ebu output of my Bel Canto fm-1 tuner to gaia to convert to i2s and synced to oxco clock of T+ sounds so much better .. more detailed and clean with blacker background like veil had been lifted as compared to direct aes-ebu output directly to T+. Asked my dotter as I switch between the 2 and she remarked "you need to ask ? So obvious !"

Thirdly, on this main query if usb input directly to T+ or via gaia to convert to i2s that is synced to the oxco clock of T+, there is no miracle for the usb of my Antipodes ex and sounded less detailed and less engaging.

Speculative but the usb output from my Antipodes is no slouch and does not benefit from going via gaia but a lesser usb source may.

Similarly, the aes-ebu of my Bel Canto tuner benefitted very much via the gaia after conversion to i2s and synced to the ocxo clock of T+ but perhaps a higher quality aes-ebu or other digital source of say esoteric k series transport may not ... Avatar that I tested for sure benefits when synced to T+ .. more solid imaging and prat.

Hope this helps and YMMV since system dependent, personal preference and past experience ... I am still enjoying my Bel Canto fm 1 and it is unbelievable that fm radio can sound this good

Cheers.

Richard

 

[richard_crl032]

***Speculative but the usb output from my Antipodes is no slouch and does not benefit from going via gaia but a lesser usb source may.**

Hi All,

For completeness of the abovementioned, I connected my allo's usb bridge to the gaia and behold the needed validation ... the sound quality improved to more detailed, dense and musical presentation !

Believe this update sums up the outcome of my planned venture with gaia with synced clock to T+ and i2s and should help bros here to consider the digital source quality if gaia will improve the sound quality of your system if you have the T+.

Unfortunately, I cannot share further on validated result of the more common query getting the gaia for the standard Terminator or non Denafrips dac since having none.

I can only guess that without synced clock or even i2s connectivity of T+ which I covet due to their sound technical advantages, improvement is likely less but pure speculation of course while bro Blake, John, Abyss etc. had already reported improvement of the gaia with at least the standard Terminator and/or T+.

Cheers.

Richard

[richard_crl032]

Hi All,

 

Just listened to the allo's usb bridge signature via the gaia and T+ and compared the Antipodes directly via the T+ with various same tracks on both.

Without the gaia for both allo's and Antipodes to the T+ that I am very familiar with, it was like subjectively 60-70% for the allo's if Antipodes is at 90% ....

With the gaia for allo's, it gets to 75-80% of the Antipodes which is quite impressive and nice as a backup server but it also tells me just how nice the Antipodes is .. crisp, clear and extended in comparison.

Again ymmv and this helps further ....

Cheers.

[richard_crl032]

1 hour ago, luisma said:

Thank you Richard for the detailed explanation. I think I'm missing it but can you list what resolution of digital stream are you outputting from the Antipodes and the Allo? The T+ board accepts PCM 1536 and DSD 1024 (if I'm not mistaken) and the Gaia PCM 784 / DSD 512?) and I know digital resolution is not everything but just curious which samples you were using

 

thank you so much

 

Luis

 

Hi Luis,

 

My pleasure .. had always been looking at esoteric and dCs with their clocking but never been able to afford when younger but now old to be wiser not to spend too much ... until ok denafrips chi-fi products at chi-fi pricing at worldclass quality in sound and technology.

 

For both usb bridge signature and the antipodes, they are playing at default setting with same 44.1khz flac and dsd64 music files primarily ... not into upsampling nor have the knowledge to do so but seems moode os of usb bridge signature does upsamples to 32 bit for the usual 16bits 44.1khz flac and dsd128 for dsd64 respectively.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

 

[richard_crl032]

4 hours ago, luisma said:

Thank you, good that all effects are off but from the first image I see the internal decoded value 1411 Mbps which is high considering for PCM (I think this is internal sampling from the Antipodes) then downsampled to 2.822 (DSD64), second image shows DSD128 passed as DSD128 but I think it is going through some upsampling which is not relevant to my question.

 

This is good thank you, it would be very interesting to test IMO Gaia + T+ vs T+ alone being fed with DSD512 and PCM1536 (or 1411) and listen to the results,

 

There is nothing wrong using low sampling rates as long as the content / source is good, I am just curious

 

Thank you for posting ....

 

Mostly surprised by your results, I was not expecting the Gaia + T+ being even slightly superior to T+ alone

 

 

Hi Luis,

 

Sorry for the confusion .. the photos on audio info are both for the usb bridge signature provided by moode os .. one for 44.1khz flac and the other for dsd64 files.

 

For the Antipodes I do not know how to provide such audio info running the squeezelite player.

 

On the Tplus led indicators on its front panel, both usb bridge signature and Antipodes simply indicate 44.1khz and dsd64 and frankly do not understand why also 🙏.

 

Guess too much rantings from my 3 consecutive posts which confuses and please let me summarize again in my system from what I hear via both my main speakers and headphone:

 

1. Gaia+Tplus is not always better ....  with the Antipodes usb output, I preferred direct to Tplus without the gaia. With the Antipodes connected to the gaia, I lost the crispness, extension as well as midrange clarity ... music is less engaging in a nutshell.

 

2.  all else, including also usb output from the usb bridge signature, I prefers Gaia+Tplus which I find to have greater "solidality", clarity and resolution ... music is more dense and enjoyable as if all gets snapped into place. This is very obvious also with aes output from my Bel Canto fm tuner which I will certainly connect via Gaia.

 

My conclusion is that improvement of going via gaia or not depends on the quality of the source being used. I am also bias and believe that the clock synced devices said to reduce jitters is a big plus of this denafrips stack of ddc, cdp and dac with the best ocxo clock just cm away in the Tplus dac.

 

Hope this clarifies and cheers.

 

Richard

[richard_crl032]

Hi,

 

For those having gaia and avatar and certainly should daisy chain them to T+, please find below required 75 ohm parts (2 dual bnc and 1 load resistors) in additional to 3 bnc clock cables that I found sounding  better that your usd1-2 cheap ones:

 

https://sg.rs-online.com/web/p/coaxial-adapters/1120830/

 

https://sg.rs-online.com/web/p/rf-terminators/7009316/

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

 

PS: dual T adaptor not preferred due to limit in between space  behind equipment

 

 

[richard_crl032]

2 hours ago, Blake said:

New Terminator Plus review in from Steve Guttenberg

 

 

Hi Blake,

 

Nice and tks .. I commented per screenshots.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

 

[richard_crl032]

38 minutes ago, divertiti said:

@richard_crl032 I'm not sure the clock sync would have changed Steve's opinion. Having to spend more money to purchase more boxes in order to get the best out of a $6k piece isn't all that appealing to most people. More importantly perhaps is that Steve isn't a detail audiophile guy. He likes tone and warmth, hence this review of the plus. He very likely prefers the stock DSP on the original Terminator as well. I don't think clock syncing for an even cleaner signal is his cup of tea.

 

Hi Blake,

 

Indeed and he is having the Jay Audio's cdt2 without clock input and limited i2s hmdi output as I did which I sold used and made a bit to get the Avator with clock input to Tplus' ocxo clock ... no extra box actually but just a different and probably better matched cdp from same Denafrips with the big step up in sound quality of single and oxco clock.

 

Ymmv but I will not want my dac like some tube dacs for tonality or warm that primarily all failed but instead of highest resolution possible and leave the tonality or odd harmonics to analog stages e.g. tube preamp, tube/class A amp or speakers or even cablings but not to have irreplacably lost resolution for mistaken warm or tonality upstream.

 

Not sure what you had experienced when synced compatible devices to your Tplus which I would described more of i2s goodies ... more solid imaging, more transparent, darker background and certainly no loss of tonality or warmth without sync that I will not go back to. 

 

Moreover, it is just via some cheap Canare bnc clock cables , bcn adaptors and 75 ohm load for a grand total of usd100 to get the coveted technology of mega $ esoteric, dCs, gimm etc. which is a joke against how much we are willing to spend on cabling.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

[richard_crl032]

3 minutes ago, Blake said:

@richard_crl032  I think in your post above you are actually responding to @divertiti

 

Hi Blake/Divetiti,

 

Oops .. 2.34am here and after a long day, a brisk walk, bike ride and late supper, I erred again .. with apology.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

[richard_crl032]

4 hours ago, Rune said:

Must admit that I also find it a turnoff if a Gaia is needed  to make the TP+ Sound its best. I see no reason why USB cannot sound just as good as i2s unless it has a bad USB implementation which is strange because the new USB interface is highlighted as upgraded.

 

Hi Rune,

 

You dun need a Gaia for TP and certainly can have Avatar directly synced to TP's ocxo clock instead of its femto clock which results in a single clock which I believe improve jitter and left with those from cables, connection and environment.

 

I am only using a Gaia only to have digital AES from from my Bel Canto to have synced clock to TP's ocxo clock and i2s which I find in my system obvious step up in SQ improvement.

 

For usb vs single synced ocxo clock and i2s in my system, it is  mixed bag ... my usd300 allo usb bridge sounded better via the Gaia but not my Antipodes EX.

 

I am bias on having single synced ocxo clock and this is not on TP itself but it allows me to do so via such a route.

 

Having the Gaia now is really not bad at all since I have almost double the allowable input sources that I will never be able to exhaust.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

[richard_crl032]

19 minutes ago, mevdinc said:

I agree with you about digital volume control being good enough. Especially with the latest improvements in software volume control implementations it's not absolutely necessary to have a preamp in the DAC unless one needs analog inputs.
Of course, Denafrips can also easily implement the latest digital volume control in their DACs, as Lumin has done with their DACs and streamers.
 

 

Hi Mevdinc,

 

Indeed preamp for analog sources like vinyl playback ...

 

Additionally, I do like tube preamp to add a bit of "musicality" which is perhaps a bit old school but not ashame of it.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

[richard_crl032]

Hi,

 

Hope not and just in case especially those not using denafrips products at default i2s hdmi setting, please note both standard and plus version of Terminator is default at negative phase after powering up else it will not sound best nor right .. if you are not sensitive to correct phase and somehow missed RYFM.

 

My audible illusion L3A preamp is also negative phase and hence no issue from day 1 ... free upgrade in sound quality if you had been hearing wrongly phased setup.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

 

 

 

[richard_crl032]

3 hours ago, orosie said:

So, does Negative Phase mean out of phase, and Positive Phase mean in phase?  Why would Denafrips default to a setting of out of phase?

 

PS Audio has this option on their DS DAC, but they call it "in phase" and "out of phase".  This is absolute phase we are talking about, right?  It is very hard to notice a difference when toggling the phase button, so I am assuming both channels are switched, which makes it much harder to tell then when listening to speakers in which one is wired out of phase.  

 

Hi Orosie,

 

Affirmative but there is technical difference between phase and just polarity by switching speaker cables.

 

Not sure why but for my audible illusion l3a preamp and previous conrad johnson equipment and others, it is to avoid more circuitry to reverse polarity that designers feel detrimental to SQ:

 

The use of a single gain stage means that the L3A main outputs (but not the buffered tape and surround-sound outputs) invert signal polarity. Since no phase-inversion circuitry is used, be sure to reverse speaker cable polarity at either the power amp or speaker terminals in order to maintain correct absolute polarity.

 

I can surely tell in my system especially on often centered midrange vocal being diffused when out of phase and it will help further if you play only a single test tone .. I also have a usd10 phase checker used in car audio tuning to confirm.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

 

[richard_crl032]

3 hours ago, Dev said:

I don't have a T+, but I do have a T and I haven't noticed any difference whatsoever toggling this phase button. I also had a PS Audio DS and the "phase" toggle didn't matter either. I could be wrong but think for a full balanced differential preamps (which I use), it would not matter, however it might effect a single ended preamp design. Anybody can shred some light on this ?

 

Hi Dev,

 

Do not think it matters if balanced or SE wired but I had err on my audible illusion L3A being negative phase when it is actually negative polarity .. with apology.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

[richard_crl032]

1 hour ago, Dev said:

 

Richard, what is the difference between -ive phase vs -ive polarity in a preamp ?

 

 

Hi Dev,

 

Believe member accwai got it right here:

 

 

Actually there are two types of polarity: relative and absolute. Correct relative polarity means all channels in the system have the same polarity relative to each other. Correct absolute polarity means the polarity of the sound wave coming out of the speakers is the same as when things are recording, as oppose to compression from the speaker while the original mic actually sensed rarefication.

 

Relative polarity is easy to check--play anything through a system with incorrect relative polarity will result in a strange hollow sound. If you insist on using a test signal, then pull up the generator panel in REW and setup a low frequency pure sine wave, say 250Hz. Flip the speaker wires on one side and you immediately hear the difference.

 

As for absolute polarity, there is nothing to check. Some do not believe that absolute polarity effect is audible. If so, you're done. For those that do, the whole chain up to the original mic must be taken into account. And since the front end is not controllable, you must have an absolute polarity switch somewhere in your system to handle the case of incorrect polarity in the recording chain. Then you set it by ear on the fly, on a per album or peraps per track basis.

 

This is nothing to do with balanced or single ended setup for noise cancellation if it helps at higher $ of course with added circuitry while it is not uncommon that some equipment has balanced connection for convenience only but inherently not a balanced circuitry.

 

Google more on this absolutely polarity led to some unvalidated comments that 50-90% of recording are out of absolute phase but my take is that they do this because the sound engineers feel it sounds better and since we are listening to their recordings, I would err on the side of doing the same and leave it on positive absolute phase button of my Denafrips now and only select negative absolute phase if I find it not sounding good.  But no idea why Denafrips have it default to negative absolute phase ... if Denafrips button is indeed on absolute phase and not just relative phase aka polarity  😅

 

Cheers,

 

Richard

 

[richard_crl032]

expand...

Hi All,

Got weak and received the Antipodes CX to pair with the Antipodes EX .. my system never sounded better. It like getting superior sounding nite session during the day time and nite session is that you can follow every intonation and beat however fast the music is.

Could not resist and tried again connecting the Antipodes stack to the denafrips ddc but compared to direct usb to the TP, it sounds compressed and slowed down with loss of details ...

Same conclusion then that if your usb source is beyond something like allo usb bridge signature, going via denafrips ddc to take advantage of single synced better ocxo clock in the TP and even preferred i2s route, you may not hear improvement but deterioration.

It also tell me thst TP's usb input is excellent and does not hold back your usb source.

Cheers.

Richard

 

 

[richard_crl032]

27 minutes ago, roberto2 said:

Hi, you say Denafrips ddc but which one? In your pictures I see an Hermes (who is not yet in the market). What about the Gaia? Did you try the Gaia?

 

Thanks, 

Roberto

 

Hi Roberto,

 

You must have seen my earlier posting with the demo GAIA but reverted to the Hermes to save some $ especially since daisy chained reclocking with the Avatar to the higher quality oxco clock of already Terminator Plus.

 

I am only using the ddc for my Bel Canto fm tuner to reclock and convert to i2s that sounded better* .. main listening of the Antipodes EX and CX sounds worse via the dcc then direct usb to the Terminator plus.

 

Sorry for the confusion and cheers.

 

Richard

 

*I had since then added uptone lps1.2 after the zerozone lps for another step up in sound quality

[richard_crl032]

1 minute ago, richard_crl032 said:

Double posted