Will tube preamp add?

[al2813]

I know this is not a strictly DAC question, but my DAC is part of it, hence posting here 🙂

 

I have just completed my room setup which is now becoming my main music listening post. I ditched the living room which will now remain as a TV + occasional listening post. My room is an attic of about 5.5 x 3 meters in 2 levels. The lower level is which is the listening area, is about 3,5 x 3 meters. The setup I have now is: 

 

Hypex Ncore HP250MP x 2 dual mono power amp

Topping D50s DAC 

Raspberry pi 4 - Ropieee XL used as Roon bridge 

KEF LS50 speakers 

 

I do not consider myself as an audiophile. Am still a starter in this and i don't think I have the hearing and the experience to be on. Yet, this is the first setup I've had that I believe allows me to critically listen to music recordings. And I want to take it further. I was first considering to upgrade my DAC, but after a lot of reading, I am starting to get the feeling I will not achieve a lot in upgrading the DAC (happy to hear different opinions with recommendations). On the other hand I hear a lot about adding a tube preamp that can give this setup a bit of "analogue magic". This is something I have zero experience with and happy to get some recommendations. I have no budget defined yet, but as you can see from the rest of my setup, I am a big fan of spending reasonable amount for items that can delivery above thier weight. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[al2813]

3 hours ago, audiobomber said:

I suspect you are reading Audio "Science" Review? I bought the D50s for my headphone system, partly because I had the matching linear power supply and partly due to great measurements. I did not like the sound at all, pace and rhythm were poorly reproduced, which made music sound boring. I have two cheaper DAC's that sound better. 

 

Adding a tube pre behind the D50S will not address the problem. I suggest you try to audition a better DAC with preamp capability.

happy to audition a DAC with a better pre amp capability.  Can you recommend one?

[al2813]

9 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 Before jumping right in , perhaps you could try a Valve Buffer stage between the DAC and Power Amplifier first ?

 The thread at the attached link may be worth reading too. 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/musical-fidelity-x-10v3-tube-output-buffer-1

 

Thanks I read this one. Not sure about the valve buffer and again being a noob here, but I did see comments they colour the music, and my taste is more on the neutral side so I am weary of over colouring music. 

[al2813]

4 minutes ago, Foggie said:

One thing that is pretty common IMO, that many don't do is defining what one is looking to improve?  Now without "knowing" what needs improvement, that can make it challenging (having a reference point helps here).  Maybe all sounds great and you can stop?  Nothing wrong with that.

 

Trying out gear is also fine, many 'O people are constantly switching out stuff - although that requires $$ and time and can provide one with hearing the impact of different gear, which is also fine if that floats your boat. 

 

However, you'll never hear the full potential of your rig, IMHO, especially if you are sort of just starting out, without understanding the impact of setup and acoustics / your room.  The fundamentals as I like to call it.  Spkr setup, listening position and getting low freq to something manageable (sonically) is everything and will usually trump everything else (generally speaking).  

 

Get those items dialed in the best you can will then provide you a great starting point and will help mitigate your wallet from bleeding by throwing gear to solve something that gear can't.  At that point, you can then define some goals and start the conversation as to what components may work ideally or whatever.

 

Every room is a comprise unless you are lucky enough to design and start from scratch on a dedicated space $$.  Without some thought on setup and $$ on acoustics, you wont be able to get the most out of you system and could end up wasting $ on gear IMHO.

 

None of this is required mind you, throw up some speakers and gear, change things out and if that makes you happy that's cool too.

 

 

 

you are right of course so will try to define better. I believe my setup is doing well when the music is acoustic - when it׳s more electric going  to more rock, I like it less. Just earlier someone referred to this as pace. maybe it’s that. 

[al2813]

Wow a lot of new answers since last night. And as in many other cases as many opinions as responses 🙂 

I am not a big fan of active speakers as good as the ls50w may be (and as expensive - the difference in price now is significant). I like the jigsaw of components I can swap from time to time 🙂

 

I think I will try with a better DAC. I am currently debating between the danafrips Ares 2 and the Gustard. Schiit is an issue at the moment as it is impossible to get them in Europe (Schiit has currently almost zero stock in Europe). 

 

 

 

 

 

[al2813]

forgot to say - yes I do need DSD support. I have a small library, but I want to grow it, and I am looking to get a BD player that will allow me to play and rip SACDs. 

[al2813]

48 minutes ago, bluesman said:

Your D50S (which, as you describe it, is the model you have despite andrewinukm's reference to the earlier - and different - D50) is a wonderful DAC and your amplifiers are equally fine.  This is a great pair to drive LS50s and Roon Bridge on a Pi 4 is an excellent endpoint.  You can now play files of any practical resolution and format with wonderful sound quality.  Swapping for the suggested alternatives in this thread may alter your SQ a little bit, but this is purely a matter of personal preference - none of these is "better" than the rest, although some may be more pleasing to one of us than to another.

 

I currently have and listen regularly to multiple systems that include variants of most of the equipment discussed above, including a Prima Luna amplifier, an iFi DSD, an SMSL SU-8 balanced DAC, JBL and Edifier powered speaker systems, Rogers LS3/5a, 7 Raspberry Pi 3B+s and 4s, a NUC running ROCK, a Parasound preamp, a Nuforce preamp, a Wadia digital amp, etc.  Everything we're talking about in this thread is as good as or better than most alternatives anywhere near the price range, as good as most of the rest, and almost as good as "the best".  How big a gap is defined by "almost" is also purely personal preference, and the width of that gap lends itself well and often to semantic manipulation.

 

I strongly suggest that you enjoy what you have for an extended period of time while trying potential improvements in room treatment, DSP, DAC filters, etc.  Give each change enough listening time to really get to know if and how it affects SQ.  Switch back and forth.  Try many different source programs.  It can be very revealing to compare different versions and formats of the same program material to see what differences you can and can't hear and to compare what you hear to reputable published reviews, e.g. original vs remastered, stereo pair vs multimiked recordings of the same ensembles, and so forth.  Your system is a great platform for learning - why not take advantage of it?  You'll become a better educated, more experienced audiophile while enjoying a lot of music.

 

Many thanks for this great feedback. I also think the amp is fine. It’s my 4th class D. I was ready to pull the trigger on a class AB ( I had a short list which I was going to listen to and choose). Than came this opportunity to buy this amp from a musician that decided to sell his amp made with care and a custom power supply he made himself. I bought it without listening (the seller lives in France so he had to ship it). It was risky but the price was good and I figured it was worth the risk. I think it is much more musical then the previous class D’s I had. On the DAC on the other hand I feel I can experiment. I like the sound of my setup a lot but as I said it sounds much deeper and layered with more acoustic music. When the music is more electric the separation is not as good. It’s like the music is not as layered. 
 

a few posts higher someone asked me for the attenuation level on the DAC. I am ranging from -24-25db to -15db. 

[al2813]

Another point. I feed my DAC as well as my RPi from a power bank. This improved my sound a lot. 

[al2813]

first thanks for the great feedback and advice. At 51, I am a starter in this, and although the love of music has been the centre of my life since childhood, I was not in a position to build up setups for many years. 

 

About the subs, i have a lot of doubts. First because I am not sure I have the space to fit them and secondly, bass is not at the top of my priority list, separation, depth, transparency are higher on my list. I sold my previous setup (NAD C388 and Focal Chorus 836V - big floor stands) for two reasons: 

 

- I don't get enough of the living room to listen to the music 

- I got to the conclusion that this is a bad space to listen to music. The acoustics there are just awful

- I did not like the combo - too much bass for my taste, plus i was not happy of how the amp sounded. I made a good deal selling them both and decided to start from zero. 

 

About the comments of lack of separation is some types of music, I agree. Still I need to understand why DSOTM sounds so great in my setup and Love over gold does not. Probably it's also my own lack or training, placement (which I can't do a lot about at the moment since I cannot move the speakers too much). not sure what. 

 

 

 

[al2813]

9 hours ago, motberg said:

 

The way I understand things, -25 db should be audibly acceptable given a competent software volume control implementation (whether inside the DAC or written into the control software) ....but I think this could actually be a bit more complex..

 

To me, that means that for most DAC's you should be able to run direct as you have been and attenuate in software without audible degradation. Maybe someone with a more technical background could comment additionally. Some cool info in this thread (pros and cons of preamps) if you have not yet seen it...

 

 

wow this other thread is yet another wealth of info (and some heated discussions). I believe I did visit it at some moment but not sure. 
 

one of the issues I have in my corner of Belgium is that the number of good HiFi stores is limited indeed. I don’t think any of them allows loaners (if anyone is from Belgium and knows a store that does that please PM me). Than online sites do allow returns but you get a relatively short time frame to do it (14 days). So am trying to get some recommendations and make more informed choices. My appetite for trying another DAC is also because this is my first proper one. I had a Bluesound Node 2 which I used as DAC for quite some time but the D50s blew it out of the water. Then came Roon and I ditched BluOS all together. 

[al2813]

4 minutes ago, bluesman said:

 

 

From your earlier post, I would have expected you to say that Love over Gold sounds much better than DSOTM on your system.  So now I'm more than a little confused. 

 

DSOTM is certainly one of my favorite albums ever.  I actually drove (or as she erroneously recalls it, "dragged") my wife from Philly to DC to buy the original British vinyl when it was first released (and extremely hard to find in the US) because a record store on Dupont Circle had and held for me their one copy when I called them.  But it's about as electric and engineered as they come.  It was recorded in pieces on a 16 track machine with multiple synthesizers and some serious electronic manipulation.  Then it was manipulated, mixed and mastered to maximize its dramatic sonics and spatial presentation in both stereo and quadriphonic versions. 

 

Love over Gold, on the other hand, is a much lower key production that features Mark Knopfler's playing of several wonderful acoustic guitars.  He plays multiple 6 string acoustic guitars on it, both nylon and steel strung, plus a 12 string and his old National resonator guitar.  You don't need to know which is which to recognize that you're hearing different guitars, as the distinctly different sounds of each should be apparent on any decent system (of which yours is absolutely one).   The acoustic beauty of his instruments and playing is a large part of the sonic appeal of this album and can be heard delicately but clearly among the other instruments and vocals.  In fact, the entire album is much more delicate and much less "electric" than DSOTM.

 

you are right. It is different than most cases. love over gold was one of the first LPs I bought as a 14 year old from my pocket money when it came out.  I do think however that  DSOTM is electric but multi layered and with a lot of acoustic passages. 

[al2813]

2 hours ago, Rexp said:

Your DOSTM master is better, simples... Are you using a streaming service, rips or downloads? 

you are right. I got to the same conclusion last night. My DOSTM is a DSD ripped from the 2003 EMI SACD and indeed sounds amazing. Love Over Gold is streamed from Qobuz. I am getting the feeling they are using a master which is not that great. I will try to see if I can purchase a better master. 
 

 

[al2813]

2 hours ago, motberg said:

My Love Over Gold is a SACD rip a friend did for me a long time ago. Sounds fantastic, one of my favorites...

 

I hate to mention this, but somewhere in one of these groups a few months ago I posted my impressions of the D50, and 2 comments I included were something like; acoustic guitars had a slight plastic sheen (first noticed on "The Clap" by Yes) and most bass guitar elements sounded like they were recorded by a cheap DI direct to the mixing board. So it could be your separation issue is partially DAC based, but should not be a severe as what you are mentioning. Standing by itself the D50 I thought was fine, much better than most other DAC's I have heard in that price range, and these attributes were only noticeable in comparison to my reference DAC at the time which was over 2000 USD and used 8 x PCM1704UK chips in NOS mode.

 

More likely room treatments, chair/speaker location, or the file quality will fix this. Love Over Gold is recorded and mixed so well, I would not think a professionally done master would do so much damage, but may be some other type of file problem. Looking forward to your impressions when you try another source for Love Over Gold.

 

 

 

I am going to try another DAC - mainly because I could use an extra one anyway. I miss a DAC in my living room right now. 

I am currently hesitating between the topping D90 and the Gustard A22 which costs more, but seems to have a much better output stage implementation. 

 

 

 

[al2813]

17 minutes ago, bluesman said:

I can’t make that kind of judgment between them.  Both are very well crafted, multi-tracked recordings of outstanding musicianship - they’re just very different in everything from concept to final presentation.  As a musician, I much prefer listening to Dire Straits.  Between the fine playing and the variety of guitars on LoG, I find fresh inspiration each time I hear even one track.

 

When facing the OP’s dilemma, each album has a role to play. The problem with using DS as an evaluation tool is that there’s no reference standard against which to compare it when played through alternative systems.  We can’t know how it’s supposed to sound because it’s not a recorded performance - recording it was the performance.  The album is its own and only reference standard.  Their live performances of tunes from it were meant to sound as much as possible like the record (which they could only approximate), rather than the usual effort to make the record sound like the band.  Sure, many touring bands want their concerts to be perfect covers of their recordings - but DSOTM used studio tricks that go far beyond most recordings and set a new bar.

Dire Straits could and did play all 5 tunes from LoG pretty much exactly as recorded.  Knopfler’s National resonator guitar has a known sound, so it’s easy to say how accurately it’s being reproduced.  There are several different guitars on it, and each sounds different from the rest - if they don’t, you need a better system.  Knopfler’s hand is in every aspect of that album, and he clearly made sure its sound was captured well and properly. He’s playing a single cone National on one track, and its sound is easily distinguished from a National tricone (like the one sitting next to me right now).  His 12 string sounds like a 12 string, not a processed 6.  Nylon strings are clearly different from metal strings.  The entire album is a great snapshot of the live sound of the band despite its multitracked methodology. This makes it an excellent reference to help inform the OP’s decision.

 

I listen to Dire Straits a lot more than I do to PF because I prefer the music.  But “better” doesn’t really apply, the way I see it.

 

I have a more emotional link to Dire Straits growing up when the albums came out, so buying them fresh from the store (unfortuantely I lost my entire LP collection but this is another story) and the brothers in Arms live concert at 18 us still a memorable experience. BUT, I consider DSOTM to be a masterpiece (I already posted in the youtube video of John Heaton ranking the PF albums disagreeing about DSOTM). It is masterpiece that goes well and beyond the music alone.  

[al2813]

11 minutes ago, franz159 said:

@al2813 you might want to give a try using Gentooplayer on your raspberry pi4.

You will still have the opportunity to run Roonbridge on it, but also to experiment with other player options such as LMS+Squeezelite or MPD+upmpdcli....

 

Thanks for this. I might try this. I got to Roon after trying Volumio and I found Roon to sound better in my setup. I have to admit that, I signed up to Roon also becuase of the wide HW support, the enriched content (lyrics, bios, versions etc.). I do not see an imediate alternative right now. 

 

As to Euphony proposed by someone else earlier, I went to their website and honestly their pricing is no less than scandalous. Charging PER DEVICE is a bit over the top for me.