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On 6/28/2020 at 8:42 PM, The Computer Audiophile said:

I was thinking about this the other day and came to the conclusion that measurements are almost always published in a misleading way. Here’s why. 

 

I'll point out the error laden, but yet somehow a bunch of people gushing, DarqueKnight video quality with eR thread. That one counts too right?

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37 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

I'll point out the error laden, but yet somehow a bunch of people gushing, DarqueKnight video quality with eR thread. That one counts too right?

I’m not totally following, but my thing is with the seeming lack of consistency or celebration when it’s convenient and damnation when it isn’t. 
 

Personally, I’m cool with whatever people want to publish or say. I only have issues when I see what looks like hypocrisy. Thus, my quest to find out. 
 

P.S. I realize my stance in this thread could be seen as measurements are bad or that if it’s not in the audible range it doesn’t matter etc... That isn’t the case at all. This is an intellectual exercise into a topic. 

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4 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

but my thing is with the seeming lack of consistency or celebration when it’s convenient and damnation when it isn’t. 

 

I think people celebrate reproducible results. It means the protocol, either bad or good, at least works. I have a friend that ISO certifies manufacturing. It's funny because he'll certified piss poor manufacturing practices as long as they are consistent.

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45 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

I think people celebrate reproducible results. It means the protocol, either bad or good, at least works. I have a friend that ISO certifies manufacturing. It's funny because he'll certified piss poor manufacturing practices as long as they are consistent.

Actually it is even worse than this, if you had a procedure stating that your manufacturing practices can be inconsistent, you could get an ISO certificate for poor and inconsistent practices.  So quality is verified only in terms of consistency with procedure, which may not count for much.

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10 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

 

Chris has been doing and saying many things about ASR and Amir specifically, but whenever I press for details, he just tells me to connect the dots myself. Not very convincing evidence there, either, I'm afraid.

 

A manufacturer certainly doesn't want bad news to be published about their product. Neither does an audiophile who invested hard-earned cash into the product. Nor the owner of a web forum which is sponsored by these same manufacturers and audiophiles. That's understandable. But that's why measurements are important. Everyone has a bias and everyone has a hidden agenda. Measurements do not.

 

I'll agree to drop it, but only if you do it, as well.

 

 

image.thumb.png.f7d22f84431abe953b8c3267393e0d4c.png

 

All this appears to show is that the iFi iDAC2 is in need of further improvements in it's own internal PSU area

You shouldn't need to go to these extremes with any external PSU, let alone the need to use expensive ultra  low noise  PSU costing as much, OR MORE , than the DAC itself !.

 However, attacking Uptone appears to have become  a hobby horse for ASR members while treading way more gently with their favoured manufacturers.

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 28-06-2020

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2 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

All this appears to show is that the iFi iDAC2 is in need of further improvements in it's own internal PSU area

You shouldn't need to go to these extremes with any external PSU, let alone the need to use expensive ultra  low noise  PSU costing as much, OR MORE , than the DAC itself !.

 However, attacking Uptone appears to be a hobby horse for ASR members 


It shows that Uptone products were not doing what they were claimed to do. The reason to use the iFi DAC was specifically because it is sensitive to its USB input and any noise that it may carry.

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2 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:


It shows that Uptone products were not doing what they were claimed to do. The reason to use the iFi DAC was specifically because it is sensitive to its USB input and any noise that it may carry.

 

 The many 100s of members who have purchased Uptone PSUs have found them to result in both a measurable and better sounding experience than virtually all off the shelf PSUs. It is up to the manufacturer of a product that needs an external Power Supply to ensure that they do not need very expensive external PSUs to make their product perform as well as their purchasers expect them to do.

 

Would I personally have used an SMPS plugpack to power this Ultracap PSU , NO , but purchasers were well aware from discussions in the Uptone Forum that it could also have been used in conjunction with a cheap linear PSU such as the cheap types on ebay that many members have used. It's not as if it was an advertised product  either, with sales mainly to A.S. members and by word of mouth from their happy customers.

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 28-06-2020

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19 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 The many 100s of members who have purchased Uptone PSUs have found them to result in both a measurable and better sounding experience than virtually all off the shelf PSUs. It is up to the manufacturer of a product that needs an external Power Supply to ensure that they do not need very expensive external PSUs to make their product perform as well as their purchasers expect them to do.

 

Would I personally have used an SMPS plugpack to power this Ultracap PSU , NO , but purchasers were well aware from discussions in the Uptone Forum that it could also have been used in conjunction with a cheap linear PSU such as the cheap types on ebay that many members have used. It's not as if it was an advertised product  either, with sales mainly to A.S. members and by word of mouth from their happy customers.


Not helpful at all, Alex.

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18 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:


Not helpful at all, Alex.

 Neither are your never ending references to Amir and ASR.

I note also, that the previous glitch measurements mentioned were supposed to be below the audibility threshold. Clearly they were not ,which brings again into question the Actual fully verified Audibility threshold with modern well designed equipment using very low noise PSUs , more recent techniques and components. 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 28-06-2020

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11 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 Neither are your never ending references to Amir and ASR.

I note also, that the previous glitch measurements mentioned were supposed to be below the audibility threshold. Clearly they were not ,which brings again into question the Actual fully verified Audibility threshold with modern well designed equipment using very low noise PSUs , more recent techniques and components. 


Still missing the point, I see. Oh well.

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13 hours ago, Jud said:

 

For vision, the brain is extremely specialized, down to some groups of neurons recognizing horizontal features, others vertical. I’m speculating that recognizing when a familiar piano sounds just a very little bit “off” may be handled differently in the brain than trying to recall whether a musical passage you heard 20 seconds ago sounds different than one you’re listening to now. (Note “trying to recall” in the second half of the sentence but not the first.)

 

 

Just now thinking about how I register how a setup is misbehaving, I see how the pattern matching mechanism of the brain can operate - for some, 😉. Put on a track I'm familiar with, "it sounds different" - why is it different? Without consciously thinking about it, my mind is picking up the pattern of how the anomalies are manifesting, it 'sees' the rhythm in what's going on - put on a completely different recording; the brain starts looking for that same rhythm to be there, and, yes! There it is - the glorious 'signature' of the rig, at that moment, is now very audible, it's quite obvious; and will become more and more annoying, because it overlays, everything ...

Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Over and out.

.

 

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9 hours ago, Ajax said:

My experience has been that you will never convince any of these guys that they need measurements because they have the potential to undermine "their" hobby.

 

Measurements are analogous to the grammar of audio. Try convincing someone you met in the East End of London with a Cockney drawl that he needs grammar. What he has works for him, why bother him with grammar?

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5 hours ago, plissken said:

 

I think people celebrate reproducible results. It means the protocol, either bad or good, at least works. I have a friend that ISO certifies manufacturing. It's funny because he'll certified piss poor manufacturing practices as long as they are consistent.

 

Would it be reasonable to conclude that the measurements contained in the ISO certification are then either misleading or alternatively, not measuring what needs to be measured?

Sound Minds Mind Sound

 

 

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1 minute ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Would it be reasonable to conclude that the measurements contained in the ISO certification are then either misleading or alternatively, not measuring what needs to be measured?

 

No ISO, from what I understand, focus on repeatability / consistency.

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5 hours ago, plissken said:

 

I think people celebrate reproducible results. It means the protocol, either bad or good, at least works. I have a friend that ISO certifies manufacturing. It's funny because he'll certified piss poor manufacturing practices as long as they are consistent.

 

10 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Would it be reasonable to conclude that the measurements contained in the ISO certification are then either misleading or alternatively, not measuring what needs to be measured?

6 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

No ISO, from what I understand, focus on repeatability / consistency.

 

but the consistency of measurements allow for "piss poor manufacturing practices". I would feel consistently misled or let down by such a measurement standard

Sound Minds Mind Sound

 

 

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1 minute ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

but the consistency of measurements allow for "piss poor manufacturing practices". I would feel consistently misled or let down by such a measurement standard

 

Agreed. So what measurements do you have an issue with and what would be the better alternatives?

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1 hour ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Compounding all of this are various other factors including performance anxiety etc. The "trying to do it - focus" thing I previously mentioned,  not only includes looking at such interferences as muddled memory issues hampering your efforts but specifically also the interfering effect of the act of trying itself. It could maybe related or likened to Hawthorne observational bias / observer effect in physics? Certain perceptual and even motor performance tasks are simply defeated by the act of focusing on the task itself, especially if forced or 'on demand'. It appears to interfere with unconscious infratentorial (beneath hemispheres) 'automated' and patterned reactions or sequences and also shutdown necessary supratentorial cerebral associative connections necessary for many perceptions.

 

Talking of methods of reducing "performance anxiety", what I do just prior to listening to new, unknown setup is presume that it will be so fantastic, shake all my earlier beliefs as to how good a system can be - and listen with that mindset. IOW, what I'm listening to has "to convince me" that it is indeed imperfect - which it generally always does, 😁.

Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Over and out.

.

 

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16 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

Agreed. So what measurements do you have an issue with and what would be the better alternatives?

 

Any ISO measurement that allows "piss poor manufacturing" which despite being consistent , makes the ISO measurements either misleading or alternatively, not measuring what needs to be measured. Isn't ISO measurements and metrology supposed to prevent piss poor manufacturing? https://www.iso.org/news/2016/05/Ref2082.html

 

 

Sound Minds Mind Sound

 

 

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11 hours ago, opus101 said:

 

Measurements are analogous to the grammar of audio. Try convincing someone you met in the East End of London with a Cockney drawl that he needs grammar. What he has works for him, why bother him with grammar?

Indeed in similar fashion you could argue you same for southern states hick's 'When we having possum Ma?' or UK West Country bumpkins with 'My luvver' similar situation I suspect.

 

 

Reality is somewhat stranger than fiction with audio, beware those bearing audio gifts, all that glitters is usually poor sounding equipment contained within over engineered and nice looking cases with an equally impressive price tag to match.

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2 minutes ago, Clockmeister said:

Indeed in similar fashion you could argue you same for southern states hick's 'When we having possum Ma?' or UK West Country bumpkins with 'My luvver' similar situation I suspect.

 

Yes. The precise instantiation is immaterial.

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