Misleading Measurements

[manisandher]

6 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I don’t doubt what Mani heard, but one guy on Earth doesn’t make it fact. 

 

4 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

He disproved the null hypothesis to a statistically significant level ie he did hear the difference he claimed to hear, and others could not.

 

Two different things here.

 

Chris is refering to my calling the original Yggdrasil out on it's sound when I had it here for a few weeks. I looked into why it sounded the way it did, and discovered that others had measured a crossover glitch. Schiit claimed that the glitch was below the threshold of audiblity (of relevance to this thread), but later corrected it nevertheless.

 

David is refering to the ABX test I was involved with in the 'red/blue pill' thread.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

13 hours ago, Jud said:

I think a lot of the "right-brain/left-brain" stuff has been debunked at this point.  

 

McGilchrist is cited as one of the debunkers.

 

3 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

I think the whole right brain/left brain thing has been probably over-baked but there is no doubting that a great many perceptual abilities are right hemisphere controlled - ask anyone with a large right cerebral hemisphere CVA (stroke) - except sometimes they can no longer perceive (are aware) of the perceptual impairment.

 

"When people object that each hemisphere is involved in everything we do, they are right. When they assume that means there are no differences, they are wrong. It is not what each hemisphere does, but how it does it that matters." - McGilchrist.

 

In any event, I'm finding 'The Master and HIs Emissary' a fascinating read.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

4 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

I also think that like many others that ABX tests can be exhausting and anxiety provoking and is not how we generally make higher order perceptual connections whether sensory discriminations or recognizable patterns.

 

It appears there are some things that can't be forced and as counter-intuitive as it may seem you cannot try to do it. The harder you try the more you fail. Falling asleep is one and so is penile erections ( he quickly adds.... It is a recurrent theme in patients I have treated). The sentence I must fall asleep now and focusing on it usually begets failure. It is a letting go process. Complex perception I think is in that category

 

If I could upvote this 1000 times, I would.

 

Mani.

[tapatrick]

1 hour ago, manisandher said:

 

McGilchrist is cited as one of the debunkers.

 

 

"When people object that each hemisphere is involved in everything we do, they are right. When they assume that means there are no differences, they are wrong. It is not what each hemisphere does, but how it does it that matters." - McGilchrist.

 

In any event, I'm finding 'The Master and HIs Emissary' a fascinating read.

 

Mani.

A Brilliant book (2 books in 1 in fact) - I consider this one of the most important books I've read (twice) with much food for thought both scientific snd philosophical. He is one of the people who have dismissed the popular and superficial notions about the 2 hemispheres with longer term research.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

1 hour ago, manisandher said:

 

If I could upvote this 1000 times, I would.

 

Mani.

FWIW it applies to chronic pain management as well (where I first came across such observations and related research)

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

1 hour ago, manisandher said:

 

McGilchrist is cited as one of the debunkers.

 

 

"When people object that each hemisphere is involved in everything we do, they are right. When they assume that means there are no differences, they are wrong. It is not what each hemisphere does, but how it does it that matters." - McGilchrist.

 

In any event, I'm finding 'The Master and HIs Emissary' a fascinating read.

 

Mani.

 

4 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

A Brilliant book (2 books in 1 in fact) - I consider this one of the most important books I've read with much food for thought both scientific snd philosophical. He is one of the people who have dismissed the popular and superficial notions about the 2 hemispheres with longer term research.

 

It is one of those books I have been meaning to read !

 

Lateralization of brain function still clearly exists in many areas but proper functioning generally requires multiple bilateral connections allowing  integration and communication between many parts of the brain. Language comprehension and expression is largely left brain determined in right handed people. Any speech pathologist will also tell you that right hemisphere lesions can and do cause some speech problems. Things like perceptual inattention/ sensory and visual field neglect tend to occur with right hemisphere lesions.

 

I came across the works of Sperry in post graduate neuropsychology studies and in neurology. He was the guy that won the Nobel prize in "split brain" research. This occurs when the pathway joining the two hemispheres is partially or completely cut (corpus callosotomy) when treating intractable epilepsy. Basically each hemisphere can function as an independent entity, sometimes with striking and unusual outcomes

[Summit]

9 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

I doubt that Mani needed measurements to tell him that something wasn't quite right.

 

He probably didn't need it to observe that something was odd, but with measurement he could clearly point out to others that something wasn't quite right and that it probably was the zero crossing glitch.

[Clockmeister]

Wow, a lot of activity on this subject in the last few hours!

 

I will clarify my previous post for you gentleman also I did not realize the 'edit' facility of the forum is for a very limited time only so the ability to go back and put things into context is very narrow.

 

My point concerning third party clarification of a device would need to be of the use an independent certified body who testing standards and abilities were to an ISO level and inspected regularly so that these standard were in keeping with that standard. Also there testing environment  is neutral and realistic to the all products being scrutinized. Not a chap with a box on his front room table. It gives real credence and confidence that the results are as genuine, unbiased and have been carried out  correctly and to an recognized industry standard.

 

Absolutely nothing wrong with taking the measured results and using them to improve the basic design and genuinely bring the product up to an audibly pleasing standard for customers. This is how virtually all products are brought to market it the processes of refining and improving until the criteria of cost/performance and public desirability are reached for that particular product.

 

Now as a few members have eluded on this thread this brings up the subject of 'doing enough;' to keep the internet wolf of side band FFT at bay via pacification. Its called the sticking plaster syndrome.

 

It goes like this, we have spend X 000's of $'s of investment coming up with this dac/payer/amp/speaker we feel its fabulous and we need some great promotion that doesn't cost the earth. I now lets give it to a internet site that has rabid followers who hang off their masters every word (this could be applied to many forums not just asr) It will go down a storm many units will sell.

 

Problem is, it pretty average on the measurement stakes and said FFT Sensei feels its not up to muster, company receives a certain amount of negative press. Wholly pooh bottoms Batman were are in a pickle, what do we do?

 

In steps Sensei , let me give you some suggestions and you will need my mystical box of 50th order harmonic mastery, 6th Dan FFT interpretation and SINAD  pre-eminence. (THD is irrelevant these days as a measurement standard, I have seen the Sensei has mentioned on the great wide web of intrigue and black arts).

 

Now due to the initial investment in the product, it may have taken a large amount of the company's R&D budget for the product so there is not the amount left to perform a redesign or total rework.

 

Well lets see what we can get away with, lets use the SPS (sticking plaster syndrome) let us make improvements to the measurements. Sensei has identified the culprits and concentrate on those areas job done.

 

Masters & Disciples of the FFT dojo  re-evaluate product and declared all is holy and bright, place coveted 'Sensi badge of recognition and merit' on said device and let the good times roll. Lots of banter between the previous 'its pants' brigade and the well its was fine leave it alone section and within a couple of days its all smoothed over and said product is now best measuring ever 😴

 

A touch cynical and simplified yes and a smattering of theater through in for humour , though really closer to reality than you may think.

 

Designing and producing audio products is a mixture of  conceptual, scientific, prototyping measuring, repeat-ability, listening, evaluating and refining to find the correct recipe for a desirable product the audio populous wishes to spend the income on. This is before any marketing and promotion is engaged in.

 

Not throwing tomatoes about here, just cynicism.

 

 

 

 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

19 minutes ago, Clockmeister said:

Wow, a lot of activity on this subject in the last few hours!

 

I will clarify my previous post for you gentleman also I did not realize the 'edit' facility of the forum is for a very limited time only so the ability to go back and put things into context is very narrow.

 

My point concerning third party clarification of a device would need to be of the use an independent certified body who testing standards and abilities were to an ISO level and inspected regularly so that these standard were in keeping with that standard. Also there testing environment  is neutral and realistic to the all products being scrutinized. Not a chap with a box on his front room table. It gives real credence and confidence that the results are as genuine, unbiased and have been carried out in a correctly and to an industry standard.

 

Absolutely nothing wrong with taking the measured results and using them to improve the basic design and genuinely bring the product up to an audibly pleasing standard for customers. This is how virtually all products are brought to market it the processes of refining and improving until the criteria of cost/performance and public desirability are reached for that particular product.

 

Now as a few members have eluded on this thread this brings up the subject of 'doing enough;' to keep the internet wolf of side band FFT at bay via pacification. Its called the sticking plaster syndrome.

 

It goes like this, we have spend X 000's of $'s of investment coming up with this dac/payer/amp/speaker we feel its fabulous and we need some great promotion that doesn't cost the earth. I now lets give it to a internet site that has rabid followers who hang off their masters every word (this could be applied to many forums not just asr) It will go down a storm many units will sell.

 

Problem is, it pretty average on the measurement stakes and said FFT Sensei feels its not up to muster, company receives a certain amount of negative press. Wholly pooh bottoms Batman were are in a pickle, what do we do?

 

In steps Sensei , let me give you some suggestions and you will need my mystical box of 50th order harmonic mastery, 6th Dan FFT interpretation and SINAD  pre-eminence. (THD is irrelevant these days as a measurement standard, I have seen the Sensei has mentioned on the great wide web of intrigue and black arts).

 

Now due to the initial investment in the product, it may have taken a large amount of the company's R&D budget for the product so there is not the amount left to perform a redesign or total rework.

 

Well lets see what we can get away with, lets use the SPS (sticking plaster syndrome) let us make improvements to the measurements. Sensei has identified the culprits and concentrate on those areas job done.

 

Masters & Disciples of the FFT dojo  re-evaluate product and declared all is holy and bright, place coveted 'Sensi badge of recognition and merit' on said device and let the good times roll. Lots of banter between the previous 'its pants' brigade and the well its was fine leave it alone section and within a couple of days its all smoothed over and said product is now best measuring ever 😴

 

A touch cynical and simplified yes and a smattering of theater through in for humour , though really closer to reality than you may think.

 

Designing and producing audio products is a mixture of  conceptual, scientific, prototyping measuring, repeat-ability, listening, evaluating and refining to find the correct recipe for a desirable product the audio populous wishes to spend the income on. This is before any marketing and promotion is engaged in.

 

Not throwing tomatoes about here, just cynicism.

 

 

 

 

Very entertaining and disturbing. Cynic? Maybe just awkwardly high standards. 🤷‍♂️😀

[tapatrick]

1 hour ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

 

It is one of those books I have been meaning to read !

 

Lateralization of brain function still clearly exists in many areas but proper functioning generally requires multiple bilateral connections allowing  integration and communication between many parts of the brain. Language comprehension and expression is largely left brain determined in right handed people. Any speech pathologist will also tell you that right hemisphere lesions can and do cause some speech problems. Things like perceptual inattention/ sensory and visual field neglect tend to occur with right hemisphere lesions.

 

I came across the works of Sperry in post graduate neuropsychology studies and in neurology. He was the guy that won the Nobel prize in "split brain" research. This occurs when the pathway joining the two hemispheres is partially or completely cut (corpus callosotomy) when treating intractable epilepsy. Basically each hemisphere can function as an independent entity, sometimes with striking and unusual outcomes

Fascinating research. In relation to this discussion (and beyond) about how we percieve and make decisions I think this quote is relevant:

 

“If the detached, highly focused attention of the left hemisphere is brought to bear on living things, and not later resolved into the whole picture by right-hemisphere attention, which yields depth and context, it is destructive…

Our talent for division, for seeing the parts, is of staggering importance – second only to our capacity to transcend it, in order to see the whole. These gifts of the left hemisphere have helped us achieve nothing less than civilisation itself, with all that that means.

Even if we could abandon them, which of course we can't, we would be fools to do so, and would come off infinitely the poorer. There are siren voices that call us to do exactly that, certainly to abandon clarity and precision (which, in any case, importantly depend on both hemispheres), and I want to emphasise that I am passionately opposed to them.

We need the ability to make fine discriminations, and to use reason appropriately. 
But these contributions need to be made in the service of something else, that only the right hemisphere can bring. Alone they are destructive. 

And right now they may be bringing us close to forfeiting the civilisation they helped to create.”

 

Iain McGilchrist, 

The Master and His Emissary: The Divided Brain and the Making of the Western World

 

[Jud]

7 hours ago, ray-dude said:

 

Holy crap, $300/pound!!  This is the UPOCC of darjeelings!!  I'm very tempted....

Last OT on this: I think a little less expensive sold thru the site I recommended, though still not cheap. I’ve had it. Loved the tea, but though I enjoy a nice cup very much, it’s not gonna change my life.

[semente]

11 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

No way!

 

Organic Nepali Golden Black

 

https://youngmountaintea.com/products/nepali-golden-black

 

:~)

 

Interesting, it comes from a region not that far from Darjeeling (where my favourite tea is grown).

Might give it a try at some point.

 

Did you guys know that tea is being grown half-way between the US and continental Europe, right in the middle of the Atlantic?

 

https://gorreana.pt/en/

[Jud]

8 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

 

 

 

 

I also think that like many others that ABX tests can be exhausting and anxiety provoking and is not how we generally make higher order perceptual connections whether sensory discriminations or recognizable patterns.

 

It appears there are some things that can't be forced and as counter-intuitive as it may seem you cannot try to do it. The harder you try the more you fail. Falling asleep is one and so is penile erections ( he quickly adds.... It is a recurrent theme in patients I have treated). The sentence I must fall asleep now and focusing on it usually begets failure. It is a letting go process. Complex perception I think is in that category

But I think it isn’t quite so simple as “ABX tests are hard.” (Not saying that this is your position.) *Why* are they hard (or not, as in your other example 😉)?

 

For vision, the brain is extremely specialized, down to some groups of neurons recognizing horizontal features, others vertical. I’m speculating that recognizing when a familiar piano sounds just a very little bit “off” may be handled differently in the brain than trying to recall whether a musical passage you heard 20 seconds ago sounds different than one you’re listening to now. (Note “trying to recall” in the second half of the sentence but not the first.)

 

There’s been plenty of academic work done on that “trying to recall” bit. Here from a researcher’s page are tests you can try at home:  http://deutsch.ucsd.edu/psychology/pages.php?i=209

 

(Then ask yourself whether sequential A/B comparison of musical passages more closely resembles the easier or the more difficult test.)

[pkane2001]

10 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

You are in a loop again Paul.

 

As I said earlier it depends who if anyone you are trying to convince by offering said measures.

 

I have also answered issues regarding measurement reproducibility in general and specifically regarding Amir. Others have weighed in on Amirs biased agenda, example of misleading result, @Superdadand @The Computer Audiophile also brought up the issue of measurements at ASR in this or other threads (which I don't have to hand) and Chris changed linking to ASR making "science" in "quotes" which he also explained.

 

Start a thread on it if you like but otherwise let's drop it.

 

Sorry about the infinite loop, David. Unfortunately, recycled claims, just like those you dredge out in the quote above, are what keeps it going. 

 

Alex reacted badly to ASR measurements of his product(s), but provided nothing to refute them other than the "there are many happy customers evidence". In fact, his engineer eventually fixed the issue reported with the power supply that was causing the mains frequency to leak into the powered device. This was with a product designed to provide AC/DC conversion and a supposedly perfect DAC isolation, according to marketing and repeated claims. So was the measurement misleading or were the claims by the manufacturer? I know my answer. Alex knows it too, since his product now includes a fix for it, despite all the protests.

 

Chris has been doing and saying many things about ASR and Amir specifically, but whenever I press for details, he just tells me to connect the dots myself. Not very convincing evidence there, either, I'm afraid.

 

A manufacturer certainly doesn't want bad news to be published about their product. Neither does an audiophile who invested hard-earned cash into the product. Nor the owner of a web forum which is sponsored by these same manufacturers and audiophiles. That's understandable. But that's why measurements are important. Everyone has a bias and everyone has a hidden agenda. Measurements do not.

 

I'll agree to drop it, but only if you do it, as well.

 

 

[Jud]

2 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Sorry about the infinite loop, David. Unfortunately, recycled claims, just like those you dredge out in the quote above, are what keeps it going. 

 

Alex reacted badly to ASR measurements of his product(s), but provided nothing to refute them other than the "there are many happy customers evidence". In fact, his engineer eventually fixed the issue reported with the power supply that was causing the mains frequency to leak into the powered device. This was with a product designed to provide AC/DC conversion and a supposedly perfect DAC isolation, according to marketing and repeated claims. So was the measurement misleading or were the claims by the manufacturer? I know my answer. Alex knows it too, since his product now includes a fix for it, despite all the protests.

 

Chris has been doing and saying many things about ASR and Amir specifically, but whenever I press for details, he just tells me to connect the dots myself. Not very convincing evidence there, either, I'm afraid.

 

A manufacturer certainly doesn't want bad news to be published about their product. Neither does an audiophile who invested hard-earned cash into the product. Nor the owner of a web forum which is sponsored by these same manufacturers and audiophiles. That's understandable. But that's why measurements are important. Everyone has a bias and everyone has a hidden agenda. Measurements do not.

 

I'll agree to drop it, but only if you do it, as well.

 

 

 

Am I reading this correctly to say the original condition was the highest harmonic at -105dB with the LPS-1 and MeanWell, versus -115dB with the other supply (at a different mains frequency?)? And the fix (in the LPS-1.2?) brought the original level of -105dB down to what?

[pkane2001]

13 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Am I reading this correctly to say the original condition was the highest harmonic at -105dB with the LPS-1 and MeanWell, versus -115dB with the other supply (at a different mains frequency?)? And the fix (in the LPS-1.2?) brought the original level of -105dB down to what?

 

The amplitudes you are reading are correct: LPS-1 with MeanWell powering ISO Regen allowed a -105dB mains frequency hum to be introduced into the DAC. The reason it's at 70Hz is because there was a question raised whether the spike came from MeanWell or from another source, so I suggested that Amir power the Meanwell with a different frequency than the DAC itself. This made it obvious that 70Hz came through just fine through LPS-1 and ISO Regen, despite the claims of a very clean, moat-based isolation and super-capacitor based power supply.

 

I've yet to see measurements of LPS-1.2, maybe Alex can share those or someone should send LPS-1.2 to Amir for measurement.

 

[Bill Brown]

15 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

No way!

 

Organic Nepali Golden Black

 

https://youngmountaintea.com/products/nepali-golden-black

 

:~)

 

Tea nerds?  I'll stick to coffee

 

Bill

[Jud]

49 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

I've yet to see measurements of LPS-1.2, maybe Alex can share those or someone should send LPS-1.2 to Amir for measurement.

 

So the fix you mentioned occurred in the Meanwell or LPS-1?

[Ajax]

3 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Sorry about the infinite loop, David. Unfortunately, recycled claims, just like those you dredge out in the quote above, are what keeps it going. 

 

Alex reacted badly to ASR measurements of his product(s), but provided nothing to refute them other than the "there are many happy customers evidence". In fact, his engineer eventually fixed the issue reported with the power supply that was causing the mains frequency to leak into the powered device. This was with a product designed to provide AC/DC conversion and a supposedly perfect DAC isolation, according to marketing and repeated claims. So was the measurement misleading or were the claims by the manufacturer? I know my answer. Alex knows it too, since his product now includes a fix for it, despite all the protests.

 

Chris has been doing and saying many things about ASR and Amir specifically, but whenever I press for details, he just tells me to connect the dots myself. Not very convincing evidence there, either, I'm afraid.

 

A manufacturer certainly doesn't want bad news to be published about their product. Neither does an audiophile who invested hard-earned cash into the product. Nor the owner of a web forum which is sponsored by these same manufacturers and audiophiles. That's understandable. But that's why measurements are important. Everyone has a bias and everyone has a hidden agenda. Measurements do not.

 

I'll agree to drop it, but only if you do it, as well.

 

 

 

Hi Paul,

 

Boy, you sure are a sucker for punishment 

 

I have followed this thread with interest and despite the illogical, and at times personal attacks (on Amir), at no stage can I fault your demeanour. I really don't know how you do it.

 

My experience has been that you will never convince any of these guys that they need measurements because they have the potential to undermine "their" hobby. Who wants to be told that they just spent a heap of doe on a piece of gear that doesn't do anything. Who wants to look like a fool?

 

What confuses me is that Amir is being attacked for measuring outside the audio range, however, when he does and finds an anomaly at say very high frequencies or at very low noise levels he always states it is inconsequential as is outside our audio range and will therefore not affect our enjoyment of the sound. The fact is his equipment is refined enough to do so and he is simply exposing design/implementation weakness in equipment while at the same time applauding good engineering when he finds it. He always states when it is irrelevant. This puts to bed Alex (SandyK) constant babble about "you can't hear it because your equipment isn't good enough"

 

Also measurements are how we learn. Why is this anomaly happening? Can we fix it? e.g. Amir's intermodulation distortion graph showing a hump in the Topping DAC but not in the Benchmark, although both use ESS chips. This resulted in Topping addressing and fixing the issue. 

 

I note that Archimago, who is well respected here for his work in debunking MQA (together with Chris & Mansr) has not joined the debate. He is another individual constantly asking for a more rational approach to audio, however, I believe he has learnt his lesson in that that you simply can't change people's belief when they are based on feelings and emotions rather than rational argument.

 

e.g. he has chosen the Hypex NC250 MP as his reference amp, which he constructed as a DIY (it is available assembled from Audiophonics for around Euro 470). You may recall we had a gentleman known as GUTB debunking all Class D amps as rubbish. I called him out only to be told I was being "ridiculous". What's ridiculous is people spending a fortune on amps and power conditioners, special cables decrapifiers etc, when a very knowledgable and well respected audio expert only spends US$600 on his power amp.

 

Engineering, whether civil, mechanical, electrical or audio is based on maths and physics and measurement.

 

If you think I'm having a shot at everyone please know that I have also bought lots of gismos and swallowed all the BS. I certainly don't think I'm an expert, however, I do know how to put together a serious system for well under US$2k (thanks to the many excellent contributors to this site over the past 10 years).

 

Chris wants to know what the "goal" is of measurements. IMO this should be our goal. To educate people outside our fraternity on how they can enjoy excellent sound for the minimum outlay. Hell - if you are starting out what's wrong with a Topping 50s + JBL 305 MkII + Sub (with built in cross over). The source can be an already owned computer with a Tidal subscription or you can stream from your phone with chrome cast audio .... US$700 max for seriously good sound.

 

Good luck with your journey in helping these fellows understand what "bias" is all about and why "measuring" equipment is fundamental to the process of developing and improving any piece of equipment. I admire your tenacity.

 

All the best

 

Ajax

 

PS ... you should be due for your second drink about now!

 

 

 

 

 

[pkane2001]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

So the fix you mentioned occurred in the Meanwell or LPS-1?

 

Apparently the fix was in the Meanwell. But what's not explained, though, is why a device such as LPS-1 or ISO-Regen (or both taken together), designed specifically to isolate downstream components from upstream noise and unwanted frequencies allowed mains frequency to flow right through them. Here's where measurements are really important. Claims about moats and switching-banks of super-capacitors are all good theory, but measurements actually show if the device does what is claimed.

 

[pkane2001]

8 minutes ago, Ajax said:

Boy, you sure are a sucker for punishment 

 

This is fun compared to the other stuff I have to deal with during the day, so I don't mind

[The Computer Audiophile]

14 minutes ago, Ajax said:

 

Hi Paul,

 

Boy, you sure are a sucker for punishment 

 

I have followed this thread with interest and despite the illogical, and at times personal attacks (on Amir), at no stage can I fault your demeanour. I really don't know how you do it.

 

My experience has been that you will never convince any of these guys that they need measurements because they have the potential to undermine "their" hobby. Who wants to be told that they just spent a heap of doe on a piece of gear that doesn't do anything. Who wants to look like a fool?

 

What confuses me is that Amir is being attacked for measuring outside the audio range, however, when he does and finds an anomaly at say very high frequencies or at very low noise levels he always states it is inconsequential as is outside our audio range and will therefore not affect our enjoyment of the sound. The fact is his equipment is refined enough to do so and he is simply exposing design/implementation weakness in equipment while at the same time applauding good engineering when he finds it. He always states when it is irrelevant. This puts to bed Alex (SandyK) constant babble about "you can't hear it because your equipment isn't good enough"

 

Also measurements are how we learn. Why is this anomaly happening? Can we fix it? e.g. Amir's intermodulation distortion graph showing a hump in the Topping DAC but not in the Benchmark, although both use ESS chips. This resulted in Topping addressing and fixing the issue. 

 

I note that Archimago, who is well respected here for his work in debunking MQA (together with Chris & Mansr) has not joined the debate. He is another individual constantly asking for a more rational approach to audio, however, I believe he has learnt his lesson in that that you simply can't change people's belief when they are based on feelings and emotions rather than rational argument.

 

e.g. he has chosen the Hypex NC250 MP as his reference amp, which he constructed as a DIY (it is available assembled from Audiophonics for around Euro 470). You may recall we had a gentleman known as GUTB debunking all Class D amps as rubbish. I called him out only to be told I was being "ridiculous". What's ridiculous is people spending a fortune on amps and power conditioners, special cables decrapifiers etc, when a very knowledgable and well respected audio expert only spends US$600 on his power amp.

 

Engineering, whether civil, mechanical, electrical or audio is based on maths and physics and measurement.

 

If you think I'm having a shot at everyone please know that I have also bought lots of gismos and swallowed all the BS. I certainly don't think I'm an expert, however, I do know how to put together a serious system for well under US$2k (thanks to the many excellent contributors to this site over the past 10 years).

 

Chris wants to know what the "goal" is of measurements. IMO this should be our goal. To educate people outside our fraternity on how they can enjoy excellent sound for the minimum outlay. Hell - if you are starting out what's wrong with a Topping 50s + JBL 305 MkII + Sub (with built in cross over). The source can be an already owned computer with a Tidal subscription or you can stream from your phone with chrome cast audio .... US$700 max for seriously good sound.

 

Good luck with your journey in helping these fellows understand what "bias" is all about and why "measuring" equipment is fundamental to the process of developing and improving any piece of equipment. I admire your tenacity.

 

All the best

 

Ajax

 

PS ... you should be due for your second drink about now!

 

 

 

 

 

The whole crux of my reasoning for this thread was to seek information on why objectivists wish to celebrate that which can’t be heard but only when it suits their agenda. 

[plissken]

9 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

The whole crux of my reasoning for this thread was to seek information on why objectivists wish to celebrate that which can’t be heard but only when it suits their agenda. 

 

So when you are brewing a cup of tea would you rather tea that has 0% of any pesticide or FDA acceptable levels? If given the choice and you have a preference.

[Teresa]

2 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

Tea nerds?  I'll stick to coffee

 

Bill

 

I drink both and prefer them black.

 

33 minutes ago, plissken said:

So when you are brewing a cup of tea would you rather tea that has 0% of any pesticide or FDA acceptable levels? If given the choice and you have a preference.

 

I'd go with 0% of any pesticide.

[Bill Brown]

1 hour ago, Teresa said:

I drink both and prefer them black.

 

Agree!

 

In Texas our tea is iced, though I differ from lots and drink it unsweetened