Misleading Measurements

[The Computer Audiophile]

51 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Why? When Amir started measuring Schiit equipment, their performance was mediocre at best (that's the measurable performance). After getting criticized and after seeing poor results from a third party, Schiit implemented a test regime to QA all their equipment using an AP analyzer. They also started publishing detailed measurement reports for each product. Not only did these published measurements improve their image, but the performance of their equipment rose by an order of magnitude, from mediocre to top of the line. Instead of spending time and effort to defend the poor quality of their older products, their products now get a recommendation from Amir because they perform well. And the consumer gets a confirmation that the manufacturer isn't exaggerating by seeing independent measurements. A little third-party verification can work to the benefit of the consumer. Not a bad thing, IMO.

Did they “fix” stuff in the audible range or just make it look better for those who like measurements?

 

Serious question. 
 

I know they fixed the zero crossing glitch just to appease people who looked at the measurements. 

[ray-dude]

Shouldn't you be enjoying vacation Chris?

 

This week my project is rigorous AB testing with First Blush Darjeeling vs Second Blush Darjeling, with some lovely Assam as a control...

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, ray-dude said:

Shouldn't you be enjoying vacation Chris?

 

This week my project is rigorous AB testing with First Blush Darjeeling vs Second Blush Darjeling, with some lovely Assam as a control...

 

 

Yes! I get one bar of service and the internet only works for about 20 minutes of each hour. What am I doing! Now back to listening to the loons. 

 

 

 

Second flush all the way :~)

 

 

[fas42]

8 hours ago, manisandher said:

 

In the ABX, I was primarily picking up an ever-so-slight edginess in the piano in one and not in the other sample (both bit-identical to each other).

 

 

Yes, one uses "tells" in the reproduction - the "ever-so-slight edginess" is the giveaway of audible playback chain distortion - and certain tracks will send levels of this through the roof; making what's going on obvious.

 

No, this is not the recording ... I'll repeat 😝, "this is not the recording" ... careful optimisation of a system makes all the "ever-so-slight edginess", in all the recordings, vanish - this is the process of audio conjuring, 😉.

 

[pkane2001]

55 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Did they “fix” stuff in the audible range or just make it look better for those who like measurements?

 

Serious question. 
 

I know they fixed the zero crossing glitch just to appease people who looked at the measurements. 

Hard to compare different devices directly to each other. Certainly some of the distortions measured in the previous Schiit reviews could have been audible, as some were pretty significant. Engineering metrics were below modern standards even for inexpensive products.

 

New devices, such as Modius, appear to have top notch performance, with all the distortions and noise well below audibility.

[fas42]

1 hour ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Yet another explanation, is of course, that with distortions below a threshold of audibility, the devices all sound the same.

 

That's how it works, in fact ... all devices will subjectively sound the same, once all significant distortions are below a threshold of audbility - this in fact makes it easy to pick up flawed playback, because a particular recording or track will be twisted into a peculiar variant of what one knows actually exists on the recording - an accurate analogy is applying a Photoshop filter to an image, to give it an "artistic look" - fun to do, but irrelevant if one wants to know precisely how the original presents.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Second flush all the way :~)

 

This is the best tea in the world: http://www.makaibari.com/en/buy-tea/silver-tips-imperial.aspx

 

Here's where to order it, though they don't appear to have any in stock at the moment. Lots of other excellent teas, though: https://www.silvertipstea.com

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

This is the best tea in the world: http://www.makaibari.com/en/buy-tea/silver-tips-imperial.aspx

 

Here's where to order it, though they don't appear to have any in stock at the moment. Lots of other excellent teas, though: https://www.silvertipstea.com

No way!

 

Organic Nepali Golden Black

 

https://youngmountaintea.com/products/nepali-golden-black

 

:~)

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I know they fixed the zero crossing glitch just to appease people who looked at the measurements. 

 

I doubt that Mani needed measurements to tell him that something wasn't quite right.

[fas42]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Did they “fix” stuff in the audible range or just make it look better for those who like measurements?

 

Serious question. 
 

I know they fixed the zero crossing glitch just to appease people who looked at the measurements. 

 

To make it look better ... as someone who barely worries about the technical perfection of the components I come across, but instead focuses on eliminating subjective "glitching " in the SQ, I can understand why they did this - they would be amused at the jumping up and down of those who obsess about getting good numbers; but appreciate that they increase their audience, by appeasing them ...

[The Computer Audiophile]

8 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

I doubt that Mani needed measurements to tell him that something wasn't quite right.

I don’t doubt what Mani heard, but one guy on Earth doesn’t make it fact. 

[sandyk]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I don’t doubt what Mani heard, but one guy on Earth doesn’t make it fact. 

  I doubt that there were even more than several hundred  (perhaps a thousand ?) guys on earth that had even heard that product at that point in time .

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

9 hours ago, plissken said:

 

His measurements are reproduced with regularity.

 

Let's take personalities and loyalties out of this for a moment.

 

If a measurement or measurer A produces unreliable results, the verification of that result would require for me, two additional independent sources of verification ie B and C. C speaks to the reliability of B . A remains superfluous except that it prompts B and C to take place.

 

The argument has been forwarded that all measures need to be reproducible. Yes, but if I trust the original measurement/measurer I would only require one more independent measurement verification.

YMMV

[pkane2001]

6 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Let's take personalities and loyalties out of this for a moment.

 

If a measurement or measurer A produces unreliable results, the verification of that result would require for me, two additional independent sources of verification ie B and C. C speaks to the reliability of B . A remains superfluous except that it prompts B and C to take place.

 

The argument has been forwarded that all measures need to be reproducible. Yes, but if I trust the original measurement/measurer I would only require one more independent measurement verification.

YMMV

Your mistrust of Amir’s measurements is neither here nor there. If you have actual  measurements that contradict his findings, share them. Otherwise, it’s just another personal opinion, and yours is no better than anyone else’s. 

[opus101]

11 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Don't know enough about CE certification, but my impression is that it has to do with noise produced/emitted by a component rather than noise filtration of already dirty power. Is this not correct?

 

EM emissions are a part of it, another part is EMC susceptibility. Susceptibility testing looks to see that the product continues to work (subject to certain defined levels of degradation) in the presence of EM aggressors.

[opus101]

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I know they fixed the zero crossing glitch just to appease people who looked at the measurements. 

 

Depends on the meaning of 'fix'. They fixed the measurements, that's for sure.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

34 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Your mistrust of Amir’s measurements is neither here nor there. If you have actual  measurements that contradict his findings, share them. Otherwise, it’s just another personal opinion, and yours is no better than anyone else’s. 

You are in a loop again Paul.

 

As I said earlier it depends who if anyone you are trying to convince by offering said measures.

 

I have also answered issues regarding measurement reproducibility in general and specifically regarding Amir. Others have weighed in on Amirs biased agenda, example of misleading result, @Superdadand @The Computer Audiophile also brought up the issue of measurements at ASR in this or other threads (which I don't have to hand) and Chris changed linking to ASR making "science" in "quotes" which he also explained.

 

Start a thread on it if you like but otherwise let's drop it.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I don’t doubt what Mani heard, but one guy on Earth doesn’t make it fact. 

 

He disproved the null hypothesis to a statistically significant level ie he did hear the difference he claimed to hear, and others could not. I agree this would need to be repeated and hopefully others' follow suit.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

8 hours ago, Jud said:

 

When you've got a recognizable "tell," I'd argue this is pattern recognition.

 

I think a "tell" could be a sensory discrimination or part of a more complex pattern recognition. I suppose i see pattern recognition and discrimination as two sides of the same coin. Loosely speaking patterns emerge by oranisizing and connecting various sensory discriminations into some kind of more readily identifiable, interpretable and meaningful connections.

 

 

8 hours ago, Jud said:

 

I think a lot of the "right-brain/left-brain" stuff has been debunked at this point.  

I think the whole right brain/left brain thing has been probably over-baked but there is no doubting that a great many perceptual abilities are right hemisphere controlled - ask anyone with a large right cerebral hemisphere CVA (stroke) - except sometimes they can no longer perceive (are aware) of the perceptual impairment.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Jud said:

 

I'd speculate the closer the experience is to a test of discrimination, the more exhausting. But again, though it wasn't a strong signal (and thus took effort, leaving you a bit worn out), I'd opine you were looking for your "tell," and therefore doing pattern recognition.

 

I also think that like many others that ABX tests can be exhausting and anxiety provoking and is not how we generally make higher order perceptual connections whether sensory discriminations or recognizable patterns.

 

It appears there are some things that can't be forced and as counter-intuitive as it may seem you cannot try to do it. The harder you try the more you fail. Falling asleep is one and so is penile erections ( he quickly adds.... It is a recurrent theme in patients I have treated). The sentence I must fall asleep now and focusing on it usually begets failure. It is a letting go process. Complex perception I think is in that category

[Jud]

4 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

No way!

 

Organic Nepali Golden Black

 

https://youngmountaintea.com/products/nepali-golden-black

 

:~)

 

We'll each have to try the other.

 

[pkane2001]

1 hour ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

He disproved the null hypothesis to a statistically significant level ie he did hear the difference he claimed to hear, and others could not. I agree this would need to be repeated and hopefully others' follow suit.

 

What was the null hypothesis in this experiment, please remind me?

 

[gmgraves]

5 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Yes! I get one bar of service and the internet only works for about 20 minutes of each hour. What am I doing! Now back to listening to the loons. 

 

 

 

Second flush all the way :~)

 

 

Don’t you read enough of loons here, Chris, without listening to them while on holiday? (I include myself as one of those loons).😉

[ray-dude]

4 hours ago, Jud said:

 

This is the best tea in the world: http://www.makaibari.com/en/buy-tea/silver-tips-imperial.aspx

 

Here's where to order it, though they don't appear to have any in stock at the moment. Lots of other excellent teas, though: https://www.silvertipstea.com

 

Holy crap, $300/pound!!  This is the UPOCC of darjeelings!!  I'm very tempted....

[fas42]

On 7/8/2020 at 9:10 AM, fas42 said:

 

Sorry, I think this type of testing is complete nonsense - of zero value, in every possible way. Yesterday, I got a result - a negative one, in fact - which to me is of vastly greater value: I played a track of a live blues performance, quite recently recorded - I have played this track close to a 100 times; and I know exactly what the sense of it can be ... it was a fail on the new digital speakers of mine - nothing was missing, all the bits were there; but the vitality, the sense of the occasion was poorly rendered - it was, boring ...

 

Okay, I could explain why that was so - the system hadn't warmed up enough, there was too much interference from somewhere, there was some issue that I still haven't unearthed, etc - but that's not the point; what I instantly knew at that moment was that I had a handle, in terms of some piece of music, that would tell whether the rig was firing at an acceptable level.

 

As a follow up, this was largely resolved by altering how some computer gear at the other end of the house, on a different circuit, was plugged in - another example of why it's so important to resolve mains quality issues ... a kludge solution - some capacitive filtering across the socket was simply done another way; which happened to suit the particular assembly of devices plugged in ... of course, the long term method is to improve the specific filtering done for the rig components - so, need to buy some more electronic bits, to experiment with, 😉.

 

What was gained? ... The sense of liveness to the music making was lifted substantially - the fire was back ... now, how does one measure what's happening here - with numbers?