WAV vs AIFF file size help

[Vangelis]

I just picked a used Zenith MKII SE last week. The Zenith converts incoming files with a choice of  FLAC or WAV.  Now I’m thinking about if I should import my AIFF files to the Zenith as WAV.  WAV files are very similar to my existing AIFF files as they are totally uncompressed.   I know that AIFF and WAV files take up more drive space than FLAC. I’ve been reading on the Internet for days trying to find any information that would tell me if WAV files take up the same disk space AIFF?  I will not be able to transfer my AIFF files over as WAV unless the file size is the same as AIFF.  I already have 1.7 TB of AIFF files to transfer to the Zenith 2TB drives.  Anyone compared file size of these two formats?

[Foggie]

13 minutes ago, Vangelis said:

I just picked a used Zenith MKII SE last week. The Zenith converts incoming files with a choice of  FLAC or WAV.  Now I’m thinking about if I should import my AIFF files to the Zenith as WAV.  WAV files are very similar to my existing AIFF files as they are totally uncompressed.   I know that AIFF and WAV files take up more drive space than FLAC. I’ve been reading on the Internet for days trying to find any information that would tell me if WAV files take up the same disk space AIFF?  I will not be able to transfer my AIFF files over as WAV unless the file size is the same as AIFF.  I already have 1.7 TB of AIFF files to transfer to the Zenith 2TB drives.  Anyone compared file size of these two formats?

They should be identical or darn near if I'm not mistaken.  Whats the "conversion" you speak of - does the Zenith not support AIFF?  Wouldn't it be a straight copy from external drive to the Zenith internal (if that's what you're doing)? 

 

The main difference between the two is AIFF contains/facilitates metadata, WAV does not.  I don't really see the advantage of converting your entire lib to WAV and losing all your tags IMHO.

 

I use AIFF for all my rips and download preference.  If WAV is the only option, I'll convert it to AIFF, set the metadata and import into my library.

 

[Vangelis]

Unfortunately I cannot copy my files over in their native AIFF format. Innuos only runs FLAC and WAV and it converts to one of those when you import your files. I’ve heard rumors that new servers can reach out and grab metadata now for WAV files, at least artwork artist and song information. But I’m not sure will do that. I guess if the AIFF & FLAC file size are the same I could at least try it. 

[kumakuma]

Have you considered uncompressed FLAC as a way to retain your metadata?

[yamamoto2002]

Keep original AIFF data on backup HDD and convert it to WAV, FLAC or other formats.

 

Both AIFF and WAV have similar structure, consists of header part and raw PCM data part.

Raw PCM data part has the same size but header part is different.

 

Metadata container format is clearly defined in AIFF and FLAC but not standardized in WAV therefore some metadata may be lost in conversion to WAV.

 

File size difference between AIFF and WAV

 

Typical WAV header part is 44 bytes and typical AIFF header part is 72 bytes. (without ID3 tag)

 

Therefore file size may become smaller by approx. 28 bytes on AIFF to WAV conversion.

 

AIFF to FLAC conversion

 

AIFF to FLAC conversion is safer option, metadata should be retained on this conversion. Original uncompressed PCM, identical bit-by-bit to original PCM data, should be recovered from FLAC file and file size  becomes smaller than AIFF or WAV when PCM data has some redundancy (repeats or some statistical predictability). If original PCM data has no statistical predictability, FLAC encoder gives up to use compression algorithm and store PCM data as-is and file size becomes slightly larger than AIFF. If AIFF contains 32bit PCM (rare), PCM bit depth may be converted to 24bit on AIFF to FLAC conversion.

 

About lossless data compression

 

Lossless data compression may reduce file size while it retains all the information to recover original data.

 

I'd like to explain how this is possible with RLE compression because it is simple (This method is used in some facsimile but not used in FLAC)

 

When original data sequence is:

AAAAABBBBBBBBBAAA

 

It can be expressed and stored as RLE compressed form:

{A,5},{B,9},{A,3}

 

Latter form is smaller size while it has all the information of original data.  and original data sequence should be restored from lossless compressed data.

 

About FLAC uncompressed

 

This compressed form becomes larger size than original data when original data has no repeat.

 

FLAC encoder tries a few different compression algorithms and if all the compression algorithms produce larger data than original, store the portion of PCM as uncompressed original data as-is. This feature exists in many lossless compression file format.

 

Some FLAC encoders use this feature to create FLAC file of all the PCM stored as an uncompressed form, even when compression algorithm produces smaller data sequence than original data sequence. IMO this is waste of storage space.

 

 

 

[sandyk]

3 hours ago, yamamoto2002 said:

Some FLAC encoders use this feature to create FLAC file of all the PCM stored as an uncompressed form, even when compression algorithm produces smaller data sequence than original data sequence. IMO this is waste of storage space.

 

Just as many are able to hear the difference between .flac and .wav, quite a few people are able to hear differences between Compressed and Uncompressed .flac files when played " on the fly" 

 Otherwise there wouldn't  have been a demand for it. 

 

[yamamoto2002]

I created a player app program to read the file and prepare all the uncompressed PCM data to play before playback starts. Full source code is disclosed to inspect all the detail of the app. On this app, no file reading is performed while playback. AIFF, WAV and FLAC is played using the same playback thread code: get raw PCM from memory buffer and put it onto WASAPI buffer using memcpy()

 

It seems some audiophiles in Japan were convinced that lossless FLAC and WAV / AIFF sound can be identical.

 

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, yamamoto2002 said:

It seems some audiophiles in Japan were convinced that lossless FLAC and WAV / AIFF sound can be identical.

 

 I don't doubt that they sound the same to many people, however all Bit Perfect S/W players are supposed to sound the same too.  (BTW, I did try your player, after seeing it mentioned in a different thread.)

[Cebolla]

22 hours ago, Vangelis said:

Unfortunately I cannot copy my files over in their native AIFF format. Innuos only runs FLAC and WAV and it converts to one of those when you import your files. 

 

Are you certain about this?

 

The specification on the Innuos website mentions that the ZENith SE Mk.II supports streaming and playing of AIFF files (as well as other audio file formats including WAV & FLAC). So how would it be able to play AIFF files & have AIFF files streamed from its built-in UPnP/DLNA media server if they weren't stored as such?

 

The WAV and (zero compression) FLAC format storage option restriction appears to be just for its CD ripping function:

http://innuos.com/en/catalog/go/zenith-se-mk2-std

 

 

See also:

 

http://www.innuos.com/en/go/manual-managing-server-ripping-overview

 

 

http://www.innuos.com/en/go/manual-managing-server-import-requirements

- Note, absolutely no mention of the imported files being converted to WAV or FLAC.

 

[Vangelis]

I purchased the Zenith from the original owner who ripped all his music direct. He told me that there are only two file options, FLAC and WAV for the Zenith.  I can understand how he was confused about file compatibility. He never transferred any files into this Zenith. After reading the Innuos file compatibility specs it sure appears that imported  AIFF files should work fine. Another Innuos owner confirmed this evening that my imported AIFF files will not be converted. Thanks for the help.