Tube Preamp Advice - Rogue, Schiit, and Vincent

[DancingSea]

Aloha,

 

I have a DirectStream Junior DAC and a PS Audio S300 power amp (dual mono, class A input, class D output), connected by balanced XLR. I’d like to add a sub $2000 tube preamp.  Balanced is preferred, but not a deal breaker.

 

Lots of reading has led me to 3 candidates:

 

1) Schiit Freya+  $899, 4 tubes (6SN7), balanced XLR.  Excellent value, lots of glowing YouTube reviews, just not sure about Schiit’s tube pedigree, and their main designer seems grumpy (haha).  Made in California.   https://www.schiit.com/products/freya-1

 

2) Rogue Audio RP-1, $1800.  2 tubes (12AU7/ ECC82), no XLR.  Has a good Stereophile review.  Rogue has a great tube pedigree, made in Pennsylvania .  Just not sure if it’s the Freya at twice the price?  And with only 2 tubes, am I getting short changed on tube-ness?  https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=RARP1

 

3) Vincent Audio SA-32, $1200.  Audio Advisor product, no pro reviews that I could find.  4 tubes (6N16), balanced XLR.  I’m not a purist, and am drawn to the their tone controls, very rare these days, a tear came to my eye when I saw tone controls, took me back 😂.  German designed, made in China.    https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=VISA32&variation=SIL

 

The $2500 Vincent Audio SA T7 has 12 very positive user reviews on Audio Advisor, but no pro reviews I could find.  No XLR.  I looked at it just to get some idea of where Vincent fits into our audiophile universe.  Upscale Audio sells Vincent as well.

 

Would appreciate advice, or alternatives.  Thanks.

 

[pas]

https://doge.audio/product/doge-8-clarity-2019-edition/

http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Preamplifiers.html#ClB

https://www.noteperfect.com.au/doge.htm

https://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/doge8_preamp_e.html

 

Doge 8 FYI

[AudioDoctor]

Has 4 tubes and made in MN

https://avahifi.com/collections/preamplifiers/products/fet-valve-cf-slr-preamplifier

[firedog]

I can only say that I have the  older Freya and it's very good.I think you need to spend a lot more to beat it. The 3 modes are also fun.

 

[4est]

3 hours ago, firedog said:

I can only say that I have the  older Freya and it's very good.I think you need to spend a lot more to beat it. The 3 modes are also fun.

 

It's the three modes that would keep me away. IME products such as this tend to mediocre by way of trying to be too much. Does anyone know the B+ voltage of these?

[JoeWhip]

I am not a tube guy but I do have experience with the Rogue stuff over the years and they make very good equipment. Great company and their owner is a class act all the way. I am NOT biased at all being in PA.

[davide256]

My prior tube pre-amps were a "refreshed" Conrad Johnson PV10A and the preamp section of a Prima Luna Premium integrated. They are not even close

to the performance of a Linear Tube Audio Microzotl 2 used as a preamp. The Berning design does two things unexpected (1) its not subject

to the extreme tone color variation of other tube pre-amps, with different pre tubes, all you really have to be concerned with is pre tube performance

at the frequency extremes and transient response ability (2) it does low bass right, you get the sub audible bass frequencies, no "fat bass" exaggeration.

Its only issue is that you cannot have  headphones and speakers connected at same time as performance degrades when both are driven simultaneously.

And if you are a tinkerer who constantly plugs/unplugs cables you will have to periodically take of the top plate and tighten down the input/output jacks.

The basic version runs $1295 or $1545 with a remote and SMPS 12V DC power supply. A good LPS highly recommended, I use a JS-2 to power mine.

 

https://www.lineartubeaudio.com/products/mz2mz2-s

 

I would consider the Freya to be a waste of money with your system. I have auditioned Rogue products before, they are nice, good value, can't go wrong there

if you want a traditional tube pre-amp.

[firedog]

BTW, if you are only interested in tube output, the Freya probably isn't your best bet. IMO, it's active transistor stage sounds better (although I haven't heard the new version).

[DancingSea]

5 hours ago, davide256 said:

I would consider the Freya to be a waste of money with your system

Thanks for feedback.  I’m curious, why would the Freya be a waste of money?

 

My goal is to bring tube coloration into the system.  Darko, FWIW, in his glowing review of the Freya+, says the tube mode does bring pleasing tube coloration, holographic with what he calls “tube vapor trails”. 
 

Also, how is the Linear Tube preamp powered?  On the photos of the rear, I don’t see a place for a power cord.  Can it be powered by an SBooster?

 

And does being single ended only present any meaningful disadvantage to balanced XLR?

 

It’s a very intriguing option.  Thanks. 

[Rexp]

7 hours ago, DancingSea said:

Thanks for feedback.  I’m curious, why would the Freya be a waste of money?

 

My goal is to bring tube coloration into the system.  Darko, FWIW, in his glowing review of the Freya+, says the tube mode does bring pleasing tube coloration, holographic with what he calls “tube vapor trails”. 
 

Also, how is the Linear Tube preamp powered?  On the photos of the rear, I don’t see a place for a power cord.  Can it be powered by an SBooster?

 

And does being single ended only present any meaningful disadvantage to balanced XLR?

 

It’s a very intriguing option.  Thanks. 

I would seek out a warmer source, rather than a warm sounding pre. 

[davide256]

8 hours ago, DancingSea said:

Thanks for feedback.  I’m curious, why would the Freya be a waste of money?

 

My goal is to bring tube coloration into the system.  Darko, FWIW, in his glowing review of the Freya+, says the tube mode does bring pleasing tube coloration, holographic with what he calls “tube vapor trails”. 
 

Also, how is the Linear Tube preamp powered?  On the photos of the rear, I don’t see a place for a power cord.  Can it be powered by an SBooster?

 

And does being single ended only present any meaningful disadvantage to balanced XLR?

 

It’s a very intriguing option.  Thanks. 

As best I can tell from the Freya's description, it appears to be a hybrid tube pre with solid state elements. Which is going to dilute the whole

tube experience.

 

The main asset of a pure tube pre-amp is its distortion products are second order harmonics, so that the distortion is easy on the ear, not fatiguing

like the odd order distortion of solid state components.

 

The main disadvantage of many  tube pre-amps is being euphonic, they unnaturally accent harmonics in certain regions. Which means your music

starts to fall into like/dislike camps depending upon whether the accent is pleasing for that piece or strange. I much prefer having the tube pleasantness

without the euphonics, so that you don't find yourself ignoring good music disadvantaged by euphonic coloration. And I like solid state transient

response which is difficult to get from traditional tube designs but exemplary with the Berning RF amplification circuit design of the Microzotl 2.

This TAS review may be helpful.

 

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/david-berning-microzotl20-personal-amplifier/

 

The power input of the MZ2 is a 2.5mm DC jack input on the back. The stock SMPS is 3.3A, 12V. Note that you can also use the MZ2

as a 1w amplifier... but I don't recommend this until you have a good hefty LPS (>6A) for the PS.

 

XLR is a balanced cable and if you were spending more on a pre-amp you could get electronics good enough to gain an advantage, Under $2k

its going to be just a marketing feature to sway those who buy based on check sheets. At least thats what I ran into several years ago when shopping

tube gear

 

 

 

[firedog]

2 hours ago, davide256 said:

As best I can tell from the Freya's description, it appears to be a hybrid tube pre with solid state elements. Which is going to dilute the whole

tube experience.

As best as I can tell, the 3 modes are independent. Actual users who like tubes seem to be quite happy with the sound. Haven't heard of anyone saying the tube experience is "diluted", or something similar. Reviews of the tube section have been very positive, including comparisons to more expensive tube amps.

 

I'm not sure at all what your comment actually means. Please explain, and let us know if it based on anything other than assumptions.

 

And you haven't heard one, have you?

[botrytis]

I, myself would look used. Like an Audio Research, say SP-16 or other model. Can be had for the same as many of the ones listed.

[davide256]

5 minutes ago, botrytis said:

I, myself would look used. Like an Audio Research, say SP-16 or other model. Can be had for the same as many of the ones listed.

A good recommendation. They make tube pre's that do transients right. Are they as sensitive to 12xx pre tube rolling as other tube designs?

[davide256]

5 hours ago, firedog said:

As best as I can tell, the 3 modes are independent. Actual users who like tubes seem to be quite happy with the sound. Haven't heard of anyone saying the tube experience is "diluted", or something similar. Reviews of the tube section have been very positive, including comparisons to more expensive tube amps.

 

I'm not sure at all what your comment actually means. Please explain, and let us know if it based on anything other than assumptions.

 

And you haven't heard one, have you?

I haven't heard one but after 40 years of watching the market and listening to tube designs, I don't see anything that shouts "this punches above its weight class". The only

serious review that I can find is from Positive Feedback. Exceptional buys attract reviewers like flies with  comparisons to other gear they like, I'm not seeing that.

[bluesman]

23 hours ago, davide256 said:

you get the sub audible bass frequencies

Purely out of curiosity: if they're sub audible, how do you know they're there and what's generating them?

[AudioDoctor]

25 minutes ago, davide256 said:

I haven't heard one but after 40 years of watching the market and listening to tube designs, I don't see anything that shouts "this punches above its weight class". The only

serious review that I can find is from Positive Feedback. Exceptional buys attract reviewers like flies with  comparisons to other gear they like, I'm not seeing that.

 

You didn't look very hard for other reviews did you? I found this one in seconds, right on the Schiit website.

 

http://fairhedon.com/2019/10/08/listening-to-the-schiit-freya-preamplifier/

[davide256]

1 minute ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

You didn't look very hard for other reviews did you? I found this one in seconds, right on the Schiit website.

 

http://fairhedon.com/2019/10/08/listening-to-the-schiit-freya-preamplifier/

Thanks! never seen this reviewer before but great format and comparing it to Manley gets my attention.

[davide256]

11 minutes ago, bluesman said:

Purely out of curiosity: if they're sub audible, how do you know they're there and what's generating them?

the lowest bass is a felt pressure wave. Easiest way to experience the effect is drop a heavy textbook flat on a cement floor or be in the audience

when the concert bass drum is used. Two pieces of music I use for test, Reference Recordings, Fanfare for the Common Man, track 1 or

soundtrack to "Princess Mononoke" track 1, both have loud concert bass drum passages. A lot of gear seem to truncate these frequencies,

probably because smaller speakers can't handle them well.

[The Computer Audiophile]

13 minutes ago, davide256 said:

never seen this reviewer before

You may have seen him here in the form of a person banned for outrageous behavior and using a couple different names. 

[AudioDoctor]

20 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

You may have seen him here in the form of a person banned for outrageous behavior and using a couple different names. 

Schiit, I had no idea, sorry. 

[botrytis]

1 hour ago, davide256 said:

A good recommendation. They make tube pre's that do transients right. Are they as sensitive to 12xx pre tube rolling as other tube designs?

 

I do not know that information. I do my my SP-16 was a very well reviewed at the time but for the digital volume control on the low end, which is not linear. I also like this pre because of the use of 12AX7 tubes which are more common and easier to obtain than others. I bought my from a friend, who basically had it since new and treated it with kid gloves.

 

I only have the stock tubes (EH tubes) and a set of NOS 1950's RCA's. I am currently using the RCA's because, based on blind testing, they highs were much crisper and not as rolled off. According to what I have read on other sites, yes, the sound can be tailored by tube rolling. The Pre part has 3 tubes and the integral phono stage also uses 3.

[davide256]

22 minutes ago, botrytis said:

 

I do not know that information. I do my my SP-16 was a very well reviewed at the time but for the digital volume control on the low end, which is not linear. I also like this pre because of the use of 12AX7 tubes which are more common and easier to obtain than others. I bought my from a friend, who basically had it since new and treated it with kid gloves.

 

I only have the stock tubes (EH tubes) and a set of NOS 1950's RCA's. I am currently using the RCA's because, based on blind testing, they highs were much crisper and not as rolled off. According to what I have read on other sites, yes, the sound can be tailored by tube rolling. The Pre part has 3 tubes and the integral phono stage also uses 3.

Ouch.  NOS 12AX7 tubes are hard to get and expensive, I could never afford NOS 12AX7 when I had the PV10A. You may want to try rolling in some new Tungsol tubes,

I liked them best out of the current common pre tubes vs the GL's and EH's. Telefunken remains my favorite NOS 12xx tube for neutrality and transient response or

the rare Holland Bugle Boys if you can find them. The Telefunken 12AU7's are still out there, I have 2 extra pairs squirreled away among the 50+ pairs of different NOS 12AU7/12AT7 tubes Ive tried. I have some NOS RCA clear top 12AU7's, 6SN7, they do have a nice top end. But I'm just not willing to pay $100+ for NOS

12AX7 tubes.

[botrytis]

22 minutes ago, davide256 said:

Ouch.  NOS 12AX7 tubes are hard to get and expensive, I could never afford NOS 12AX7 when I had the PV10A. You may want to try rolling in some new Tungsol tubes,

I liked them best out of the current common pre tubes vs the GL's and EH's. Telefunken remains my favorite NOS 12xx tube for neutrality and transient response or

the rare Holland Bugle Boys if you can find them. The Telefunken 12AU7's are still out there, I have 2 extra pairs squirreled away among the 50+ pairs of different NOS 12AU7/12AT7 tubes Ive tried. I have some NOS RCA clear top 12AU7's, 6SN7, they do have a nice top end. But I'm just not willing to pay $100+ for NOS

12AX7 tubes.

I had a buddy who is a tube collector and I got 6 NOS tubes that tested new (and in boxes) and within 10% of each other (testing wise) for 75 USD. Not too bad

 

Well EH are stock for all ARC pre's, I think. 

[firedog]

2 hours ago, davide256 said:

I haven't heard one but after 40 years of watching the market and listening to tube designs, I don't see anything that shouts "this punches above its weight class". The only

serious review that I can find is from Positive Feedback. Exceptional buys attract reviewers like flies with  comparisons to other gear they like, I'm not seeing that.

http://fairhedon.com/2019/10/08/listening-to-the-schiit-freya-preamplifier/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iAmj_ptVaw

plus users impressions