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Is it possible for a power supply to affect sound quality?


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1 hour ago, SJK said:

Can a linear supply actually make any difference?  And if it did, then just use a gel-cell battery and charge it with a DC power supply set to the value specified by the battery manufacturer?

 Yes it can, however it is also possible to clean up SMPS sourced power as in PC's with additional LOW noise voltage regulation.

The main thing is to get very low noise combined with a FLAT output impedance from almost DC to 1MHZ.Unfortunately, many low noise voltage regulators such as the LT3045 when used as per their Data sheets have a considerably lower output impedance at >100kHz, which can exaggerate HF detail, and may result in a cold and clinical sound.

 You could use a Gel or 12V Lithium Ion battery, but don't connect it to the charger when playing, as this will lead to additional capacitance to A.C. Mains Earth and a resulting higher noise output..

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

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2 hours ago, SJK said:

SPICE is a great tool, but my question is are we really overthinking this whole thing?  

 

A full wave bridge, basic filter network and you get a DC power supply with a bit of ripple.  No electronics, no chips, old school power.  It works, and it works well.  All of the comments to my question are with a solution that involves some type of custom designed circuit that in a complex way does the same thing.  

 

And, the question still stands.  That old school rectifier/filter with a bit of ripple, does it sound better or worse than a boutique solution?

 

Sounds like we need to have a showdown, pardner.  

media_22d_22d1936b-f0d7-4801-8efb-fd09f8aaad98_phpElbXtk.png

 

 That old school power supply should only be the front end of a low noise PSU using very low noise voltage regulation.

 It doesn't even come remotely close to good enough by itself in today's  high performance DACs, Preamps etc..

 It has poor voltage regulation under load, accompanied by high levels of ripple at higher current draws .. It still isn't good enough these days in sensitive areas ,even when followed by the old workhorse LM317 voltage regulator

which can reduce lower frequency ripple by about  75dB at 120Hz. with a 10uF capacitor bypassing it's Adjust terminal but isn't very effective with even HF SMPS ripple..

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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42 minutes ago, SJK said:

On a scope, yes. Still waiting to hear how it makes my stereo sound better or worse. 
 

Remember, this is within the context of an external linear PSU, not something that is part of an integral design.
 

i apologize for not making that point earlier. .  

 

 It depends entirely on what the external Linear PSU is being used to power.

Even the type of filter capacitors used in this area can still affect the resulting sound AFTER going through a voltage regulator.

e.g. A low ESR Panasonic FC vs. an Elna for Audio of the same value and voltage ratings.

 Surprisingly, this even applies to items like a USB Regen which has it's own internal low noise voltage regulation ! 

 

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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48 minutes ago, SJK said:

think you're talking through your hat. 

 Try telling that to Alex C , E.E. John Swenson and many others, especially the majority of the posters in this thread

 .https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/#comments

 I did exactly what you demanded recently for a well qualified participant in this thread. via a PM.

 In this case it was powering a USB memory stick instead of using the PC's crappy SMPS +5V USB power.

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/54909-usb-audio-transmission-isn’t-bit-true/page/18/#comments

 

I would offer you some examples, but given an attitude like yours I doubt that your equipment is likely to be good enough to either see or hear the differences anyway.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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2 hours ago, SJK said:

 

What say you to that?  You can be abusive if you like, or you can stay on topic.  I'm fine with it either way.

 

Better still, I will completely ignore you, as you are simply not interested in anything that myself, AlexC (and in turn highly experienced E.E. John Swenson have to say on this matter)

 

 As this has been made into a technical discussion requiring Objective answers (Proof), it should be taken to the Objective area of the forum.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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9 hours ago, davide256 said:

I can't offer you explanations, only the observation that in my gear improving DC power supply has been crucial for improved resolution of lower db level signals

and elimination of USB digital irritants. And that the cost /benefit equation (~$500 per power upgraded component) has been far cheaper

than any next equipment upgrade

 

And the approximate level at which these improvements have been noted as the PSU area is further improved , are quite measurable as to the noise level and output impedance of the PSUs used.

IOW, In this case, Objective measurements are able to confirm Subjective reports.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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14 hours ago, Summit said:

 

This is not correct IMO. SMPS's advantage are its small size, low weight, high efficiency, low heat radiation and most important low cost per watt.

 

It’s not that simple that a linear power supply is always quiet electrically. Many LPS are sensitive to DC offset and both hum and radiate a lot of EMI.

 

Am not saying that SMPS is better sonically, but a quality SMPS is normally better than a low quality LPS for the same watts and price.

 

To answer the OP question, can a linear supply actually make any difference? Yes it can, but that it is linear is no guaranty. If it was, no respectable hifi manufacturer would use SMPS.

 

Hi Summit

 Gary is very well qualified in this area. His reply was about the typical use of generic SMPS as a cost cutting measure in many cheaper components, and also used to reduce the size of the equipment which also translates to a further cost advantage.

 The key word in your reply is a quality SMPS, with a few manufacturers having their SMPS made to improved specifications.

 

Alex

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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John Dyson who is qualified in this area also posted some good information in #27

Quote

Don't explain to me how I'm wrong, prove it.  Prove it with recordings of how this version sounds better than that version with this power supply or that power supply

 

 BTW, this was the reason I responded the way I did.

That was an unreasonable demand to make of the majority of members. 

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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50 minutes ago, Summit said:

 

Alex I have no interest in debating who is qualified. I share what I believe to be correct and will point out pros and cons of different technology, no matter what. I did not and have never liked cheap wall warts, but it’s a big difference between those cheap wall wart and a quality SMPS that is used in Linn’s or Chords DACs for example. That was my subject. I was pointing out that am not saying that SMPS is better sonically, only that a quality SMPS is normally better than a low quality LPS for the same watts and price.

 

  I agree that a quality SMPS is capable of outperforming a cheap Linear PSU, especially one  like that basic supply suggested by the OP, even if followed by a LM317 voltage regulator.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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47 minutes ago, StephenJK said:

Which nobody has done, except for Alex, who has explained "That was an unreasonable demand to make of the majority of members."

 

As I've stated before, you can post up articles until the cows come home.  Stereo gear is about the sound, not about the schematics.

 

As I also stated, I did just that recently (Thursday June 15) for another member who I know has equipment suitable of demonstrating these differences, in this case ALSO a decent external monitor instead of a cheap laptop, where he was then able to report both SEEING and HEARING differences at the same time. It's pretty hard to dismiss what both your eyes and ears are telling you at the same time.

As both Digital A and V use 1s and 0s they are both subject to PSU shortcomings.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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10 minutes ago, StephenJK said:

Dude,

 

You really need to stop with the capital letters and bold text - it adds no value.

 Dude

 Neither does posting  a photo like you have done, with no explanation as to what the actual components are, so  that others are able to

make their own minds up as to whether or not this is a great system.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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3 minutes ago, John Dyson said:

I think the reason why people who used to be engineers like me might mistakenly say 'no', a power supply cannot make a difference.  It is because the fact is: there is no good reason why a power supply should cause any problems, make even slight differences. (I am specifically discounting absurd small  parameter differences as being a 'difference'.)

 John

It is easily demonstrated by both measurements and using a C.R.O. that a simple  PSU like the OP posted, even with a LM317 voltage regulator following it, is incapable of rejecting HF rubbish such as the harmonics from an SMPS and is grossly inadequate for the best performance from a Digital front end, or even an Analogue Preamplifier , and more so the RIAA Phono Preamp for the TT in the photo ,

even though it MAY be satisfactory for the output stage of an amplifier.

 

Regards

Alex

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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3 minutes ago, StephenJK said:

The one thing that would be difficult to identify would be Jax - one of our Maine Coon cats.  Poor little guy just got diabetes and is having a hard time getting around, but he does love his tunes.

 

 That I can relate to, as my 18yo female cat also has Diabetes, and now a thyroid condition needing medication, as well as Arthritis  which responded well to Grainfree with Salmon, Whitefish and Olive oil.(Fish Oil also assists people like myself with Arthritis too.)

 Fortunately she loves this food. Royal Canin  Veterinary Diet  - Diabetic -Feline which may be worth asking your Vet. about.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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14 minutes ago, manueljenkin said:

Isn't a choke actually an R-L circuit (something like what is used in tube lights starters).

 

 

 

Chokes are used as part of the Power Factor Correction in Fluorescent lighting, most valve amplifiers for filtering the H.T. supply , and some very low noise Linear PSU designs such as the low noise +5V PSU by John Swenson.

Power factor correction.jpg

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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1 hour ago, Superdad said:

 

The problem I see there is that you are introducing copious amounts of leakage (common-mode AC traveling over DC connections) from use of an SMPS--and that's going tight into the USB input of your Schiit device.

 

And for anyone who does not think is an issue, look no further than the clever folks at Schiit:

For any of their products which run from an external supply, they put the rectifying diodes and regulators inside the component--and include an external 6V AC transformer wart instead of an AC>DC SMPS.

Unlike with an SMPS--where 'Y' capacitors right across from primary to secondary are required--the only coupling capacitance of Schiit's small transformer is whatever small amount passes on the windings.

 It is possible in many cases to improve performance by earthing the 0 volts side of an SMPS supply, but where there is a power amplifier used which uses an IEC 3 pin mains socket with the chassis earthed, it may be better to use a 10 ohm (or thereabouts) resistor to mains earth instead, as it may result in a minor Earth loop. Doing this instead with my STB resulted in a small but worthwhile improvement via Coax SPDIF Out over a direct  earth.

Pioneer DV575A SMPS.jpg

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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