Sounds Great - inexpensive, no fancy computer or power supplies

[beerandmusic]

Of course, everything is relative, and in most cases you will get the best sound with a higher budget,

but i am curious if anyone is content with the way their relatively low cost system sounds and

without a fancy computer and power supplies?

 

If you think you have a decent sounding solution for under $3K excluding speakers and amp, please share it.

 

I personally would prefer something you can buy (vs DIY), but would consider DIY if could be done in a day with little skill and knowledge...but of course anyone is free to share.

[beerandmusic]

14 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Of course I do - and I'm documenting how it's progressing, here,

 

You get everything but the source device for peanuts, and it turns out that a basic DVD player does a good enough job, so far, at driving it. How good is it? It impressed me from the very first moment I fired it up, and it only keeps getting better ... to put it into perspective, the last time I went to an ambitious high end store, @Audiophile Neuroscience knows the one I mean, 😜 - every rig I listened to there was a bit of a dud; having obvious issues with the sound; no matter how expensive it was.

 

This cheapy has no hit you in the face problems - what it lacks, so far, is the ability to throw up a very deep, fully filled soundstage when cold. So in the sense of having a system that I could live with without doing anything to it, this is pretty damn good for the money!

 

I am confused, what is the front end you are using that you are happy with?

 

I have found MANY very inexpensive source solutions that have sounded far superior to most external dacs connected to my noisy pc via usb (even trying $2k solutions).  I am willing to spend up to 2-3K on a new front end system if it will give me even 10% more quality than what I currently get just playing native DSD files streamed to any one of several different marantz streamers I have used (currently using an SR6013).  I must have tried 20 different front ends, none of which I could confidently say sounded better than any of the cheap marantz or sony streamers I have tried...and they all sounded better than usb dacs (although the unison is very close if not equal).

[beerandmusic]

24 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 Frank

 You are deluding yourself if you believe that a basic DVD player does more than a basic job. They all use  an SMPS and their S/N is usually well below what can be achieved for audio with a higher quality player. Some years ago Silicon Chip magazine did a group test of several basic players where the measurements confirmed this, and worse still, if they were connected to a Power Amplifier which was earthed ,

quite often there was a low level background hum. 

 

Alex

ok, i am not sure how i overlooked that he said a basic dvd player....i guess it depends on what he has had to compare it to.  I wouldn't knock it, depending on his budget...not everyone can afford "stuff".  I know I am on limited income and can't afford a lot of the higher end stuff.

 

My guess is that players i have used have all had used cheap smps power supplies as well, but they all beat external dacs i have connected to my noisy pc.  They actually have always sounded excellent, my last one being a marantz nd8006 and I have had some of their SACD players as well.

 

Whats nice about the players i have used, they all have supported playing DSD via DLNA.

 

I have yet to spend big bucks on an LPS to see if it would really give me a "wow" moment, mainly out of skepticism.

[beerandmusic]

I would be willing to spend $2-$3K on a front end (streamer & dac OR combo unit) if:::

 

1. I didn't have to do any DIY

2. i could return it easily if it didnt get a "wow" moment over my current front end

 

I also am in the market for some new towers. 

I sold my B&W 803s awhile ago (but still have some 805s paired with a velodyne sub)

Willing to spend up to 5K.

I want something full range that will sound good with both rock and jazz ballads.

Kind of spoiled right now with ATC SCM 19 for jazz....but they don't do much for rock.

 

Thinking i want to audition tekton but have heard mixed reviews.

 

[beerandmusic]

38 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 Sheesh !

 That's far removed from what Frank is talking about. They weigh 17.6lbs and sell for US$1299 and almost double that in Au.

 

That's why i say it is relative to what he compared it to....i believe that it is very likely that i would have been more impressed with expensive dacs if i had built a high end pc with a linear power supply, but i had no desire to do that.....I can see a cheapo used sony bluray player streaming dsd via dlna beating the crap out of a $2K usb dac connected to my "noisy" every day pc for example. 

[beerandmusic]

7 minutes ago, Ajax said:

Hi Beer,

Your question is a good one. I don't participate in the forum that much anymore as I favour a more objective approach as propagated by Archimago and Amirm from Audio Science. If you are looking for good gear for less than US$3k then I strongly suggest you visit their sites (as well as Computer Style) to get a more "rounded" view that does not include the nonsense surrounding power supplies, cables and purpose built servers.

 

 

+1 AMEN - Given my left brained thinking, I usually follow the more objective approach (it usually is cheaper too-grin), but I am a loyalist here and always will be, but i do occasionally peruse other sites as well...just curious where you have landed?

[beerandmusic]

14 minutes ago, Ajax said:

Streaming:   I stream Tidal incorporated in an Auralic Mini (I have 3 - US$400 each) using the free Lightning DS app or using Spotify Connect. In some systems I use the Mini's internal DAC and in others its digital out. I also use Chromecast Audio (I have 2 - $US30 each). These are both discontinued but you can find them second hand.... both are bit perfect.

 

I am curious regarding streaming, have you ever "tried" any comparison of higher end streamers or the use of SOTM or ultras with power supplies? 

I am keeping my opinon open until I have at least tried and not willing to discount it "may" sound better...but what % better  and what cost.

 

I have tried a few different streaming methods, and given the same source, i haven't noticed any appreciable difference (it already sounds damn good)....but i will reserve the position that an SOTM or RENDU with fancy power supply "may" sound better until i actually try it....

[beerandmusic]

27 minutes ago, Ajax said:

 

 

 

In my experience a combination that would sit within your budget (if you are OK with second hand gear) and provide excellent sound would be:

 

iPhone   >   Mini   >   Topping 50s  >  Hypex NC252mp   >   KEF LS 50   >   SVS SB 2000

 

You could easily swap out the Mini / Topping 50s for a Chrome-cast / Benchmark combination ... ignore the on-line comments about the jitter from the Chrome-cast as the Benchmark will handle it with ease. You could leave the Topping in and add a second sub to mitigate the room nodes.

 

As we are all aware the speakers and room acoustics will have the biggest bearing on sound quality and is where the majority of the money should be spent, however, If anyone has better suggestions for the streamer I would appreciate hearing about them.

 

 

Thanks for your input.  Hypex is an interesting thought, one that i contemplated when talk first arose about them.  I actually have heard some class Ds that actually have sounded wonderful at shows.  I also have heard good things about the KEFs and heard them at shows as well...I can't get past the look of them though (grin).  I envy your SCM40s (i bought some used 12's recently), but the first pair i heard were 40's and absolutely fell in love with SCM150s. 

I will almost always buy used, so no problems there at all.  Thanks for sharing...agree with everything you have shared...and yes, eq and room accoustics can never be discounted.  I recently moved, and still have not done EQ or hooked up my subs.  One of my wifes and mine shared hobbies is buying/selling, which is actually how i first got into audio...I have probably auditioned 5000 different pieces of audio gear over the past 10 years.  Anyway your recommended chain sounds great and along the lines I consider...i will have to audition a class D some day.

[beerandmusic]

45 minutes ago, firedog said:

IMO, ethernet to USB streamers have one of the steepest curves of cost to SQ in audio. For very little you can get something very good sounding, and improvements from more expensive devices are small, and sometimes they don't exist.  If your DAC has a well isolated and designed USB input, this is especially true, IMO.

Thanks for sharing...have you actually tried enet->usb streamers? 

I haven't, but i have used much less expensive streamer solutions.

I believe that if you are using a general use non-optimized windows pc to a good dac, that you will likely get better SQ using a streamer.  I haven't tried enet->usb streamers, but realize these are mostly mom/pop type retailers, and am skeptical that they will sound "much better" (esp for the $) than other much less expensive enet solutions that don't claim you need a high dollar PS for better performance.

[beerandmusic]

16 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

If I had to start from scratch, I'd go with a Naim Atom, can be found refurbished, demo or used for between $2-3K (new just over I believe). All you would need in one box. 

 

I am DEFINETELY in this camp.  I don't want spaghetti.  I want simplicity...i know manufacturing is moving in that direction, by the amount of them that keep popping up.  I actually have found the SR6013 (that i am using as preamp) that does it all, sounds as good I have heard(insert your own flavor amp for fronts), and am skeptical that something can beat it for less money.  Besides the SR6013 having built in DSD streamer, it also has AUDYSSEE eq and alexa capability (smile), and even Jriver can control it if you don't want to tell alexa what to do...i actually enjoy the ability to be able to tell it to turn on/off/mute/next track, etc...I usually start every day saying "computer, shuffle playlist" which will turn on my amp and start playing music...

[beerandmusic]

52 minutes ago, Ajax said:

 

Hi Beer,

 

Your question is a good one. 

 

I don't participate in the forum that much anymore as I favour a more objective approach as propagated by Archimago and Amirm from Audio Science. If you are looking for good gear for less than US$3k then I strongly suggest you visit their sites (as well as Computer Style) to get a more "rounded" view that does not include the nonsense surrounding power supplies, cables and purpose built servers.

 

I have a variety of systems of varying expense. 

 

Interface:     Personally I find using either my iPhone or an iPad as a remote the most flexible and user friendly approach.

 

Streaming:   I stream Tidal incorporated in an Auralic Mini (I have 3 - US$400 each) using the free Lightning DS app or using Spotify Connect. In some systems I use the Mini's internal DAC and in others its digital out. I also use Chromecast Audio (I have 2 - $US30 each). These are both discontinued but you can find them second hand.... both are bit perfect.

 

DAC:           2 x Benchmark DAC2 second hand), a Topping 50Ds and an SMSL M8a

 

Amp:           Nord Hypex Ncore 500MP, Parasound Halo A21, Marantz PM 5006 (Integrated), Devialet 200

 

Speakers:   KEF LS50,  ATC SCM 40, ATOHM G1 with 2 x SVS SB2000 subs , B&W AM1 (outside), 

 

In my experience a combination that would sit within your budget (if you are OK with second hand gear) and provide excellent sound would be:

 

iPhone   >   Mini   >   Topping 50s  >  Hypex NC252mp   >   KEF LS 50   >   SVS SB 2000

 

You could easily swap out the Mini / Topping 50s for a Chrome-cast / Benchmark combination ... ignore the on-line comments about the jitter from the Chrome-cast as the Benchmark will handle it with ease. You could leave the Topping in and add a second sub to mitigate the room nodes.

 

As we are all aware the speakers and room acoustics will have the biggest bearing on sound quality and is where the majority of the money should be spent, however, If anyone has better suggestions for the streamer I would appreciate hearing about them.

 

Good luck,

 

Ajax

 

 

Archimago doesn't host his own music forums does he?  I know he has his blog that i visit at least monthly and see his most recent blog is about this NC252 amp you speak of....I am not a DIY'er...is that available pre-built?  Looks nice!

[beerandmusic]

4 hours ago, firedog said:

1. SBTouch
2. SMS-100
3. mRendu
4. Fanless Nuc running standard Windows 10.
5. Raspberry Pi
6. Bricasti-M5
7. embedded streamer in Matrix DAC

Various power supplies, including some pretty pricey ones,  several different USB "cleaners-regenerators" between streamer and DAC, etc.

I think it's a pretty good cross section of the market over the the past decade plus.

 

Again, IME, the most significant factor is the quality of the USB input on the DAC. The streamers, regenerators, and power supplies made a small difference or not one I could consistently notice with a well engineered USB input. I am presently using a Pi4 fed cleaned up power.  Without comparing or blind testing, it sounds fine. Maybe if I directly compare it to an "audiophile" unit I will hear a difference, maybe not. Without that I'm not conscious of anything lacking. Based on impression, my system sounds no less "audiophile" than it did with a front end costing about 25-30 times the price of the Pi. 

 

I will probably upgrade to a Sonore Optical streamer at some point, or an updated Kii Controller/preamp/streamer if they come out with the rumored device -  even though I'm not 100% certain either will improve SQ . There are, of course, reasons besides SQ to change or upgrade a streamer. 

 

wow you have tried quite a few streamers...

so the pi is connected directly to a usb dac, and where is the storage and how do you control it? there is no enet streaming in your current solution?

[beerandmusic]

11 minutes ago, Ajax said:

Hi Beer,

 

I have not heard any other streamers besides the Auralic Mini & Chrome-cast, however, I share the views of Firedog and Archimago (he doesn't host a forum just a blog) in that if you can guarantee bit perfect into a well engineered DAC (such as a Benchmark) then little else is required except for DSP.

 

Check out Archimago's review of the inexpensive Chrome-cast Audio - his main argument is that it is irrelevant what jitter etc is produced by the streamer (as long as it is bit perfect), with the final result from the DAC being what is important, which makes a lot of sense to me. 

 

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2016/02/measurements-google-chromecast-audio_27.html#more

 

Another product that looks very interesting is the relatively new SHD series from Minidsp as it it provides several different combinations (all with built in Dirac DSP) so you can set up your system properly allowing for room acoustics. There are 3 types of units depending on how much flexibility you want. If you are looking for a one box solution you can have the DAC & power built in.... refer to the bottom of this link.

 

https://www.minidsp.com/products/streaming-hd-series/shd-series

 

Check out Amirm's review here:

 

https://www.audio “science” review/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-minidsp-shd-dac-dsp-and-streamer.4286/

 

Finally, there are several sources of assembled Hypex amps - Nord Acoustics in the UK. Audiophonics in France, March Audio in Aus and Apollon in Austria. I have the Nord NC 500 in a stereo format and it drives my ATC SCM 40s without issue. Audiophonics is the least expensive - about US$600. Here is link to the same hypex module that Archimago reviewed, which in his opinion was "good enough: and is now his reference.. For another US4100 you can get the 502 with a lot more power. I don't know about quality as have only dealt with Colin from Nord, who is a good fellow, and I can vouch forays gear. You can find reviews for all this gear below - the March looks really good (reviewed by Amirm) but expensive relative to Audiophonics' offering.

 

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/power-amplifier/audiophonics-mpa-s250nc-xlr-class-d-stereo-amplifier-ncore-2x250w-4-ohm-p-14185.html

 

https://www.nordacoustics.co.uk/nord-one-hypex-ncore-mpxxx-stereo-p

 

https://www.marchaudio.net.au/p252

 

https://www.apollonaudio.com/apollon-ncmp400-hypex-based-class-d-amplifier/

 

I'm happy to purchase streamers, DACs and amplifiers on line without being heard based on measurements however, speakers are such a personal part of the chain (I really like the the look of the KEF LS50 and you obviously don't) and you definitely must listen prior to purchase preferably in your own home.

 

I have just retired and bought a property in the country, 15mins outside Byron Bay in Australia (check it out), and for fun I'm going to embark on a DIY project and build the Linkwitz designed LXmini by the late great Seigfried Linkwitz. I have absolutely no carpentry skills but it looks like such an interesting project and I have heard the LX minis in a garage with brick walls and concrete floors (hostile environment) and they sounded superb.

 

Anyway lots of ways to skin the cat and I have only touched the surface

 

https://www.linkwitzlab.com/LXmini/Introduction.htm

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

thanks for sharing will read through it later tonite...just got home from outing to fallbrook...always a fun drive...found a lot of unique cd's to go through...

[beerandmusic]

4 minutes ago, firedog said:

the storage is a pc acting as a NAS. it streams to the Pi, the Pi to the DAC via USB. I use Roon. 

ok, that makes sense then...it's always been my experience that i get best results when streaming...

 

does raat allow you to fast forward and rewind?  or is it kind of quirky like DLNA?

[beerandmusic]

3 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

3B + with Case, 32GB Samsung SD, Case, and PoE 802.11af splitter for $59

 

Behringer UM204HD for $79 (now $129 😞 )

 

 

JBL 308p MKII for $149 each ($300 total) 

 

JBL LSR310S 10" subwoofer for $270 per ($540 total)

 

TRS and XLR cables for $40 to connect everything.

 

$1020 for everything and they are active monitors and subs. Sound is phenomenal. Considering they it's $510 a channel is just crazy.  

do you also stream to the pi and use dlna?

I know jriver has a downloadable image "id" which i believe is for a pi, which i contemplated trying at one time.

 

 

[beerandmusic]

13 minutes ago, firedog said:

RAAT works really well. You can do whatever you want with it. Not quirky at all - that's the point.

 

Does hardware have to support RAAT to work with it?  I guess I am asking will it work with my marantz reciever or would i have to use roon with dlna instead of raat for it to work?  Not sure if that even makes sense??

[beerandmusic]

31 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

I use JRiver and Ropiee

Ok thanks...i googled and find many references to ropiee with roon but not jriver...can you share a link if one exists on how to create this solution?

[beerandmusic]

1 minute ago, plissken said:

Ropiee is just a DNLA client. You download the image and use etcher to create the bootable SD card. About 10 minutes start to finish. 

 

When you boot the Pi you'll need to check your DHCP server for it's ip address. 

ok that sounds like something worth trying. 

With that solution are you able to ff and rew in jriver by using the slidebar?

 

I don't know if it's an issue with using dlna on my marantz or a dlna shortcoming where I am not able to use the slidebar to change position of the song?

 

[beerandmusic]

27 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

Auralic Altair G1 

 

I looked at the original altair, but they only supported apple...is that still the case?

[beerandmusic]

35 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

I have two Chromecast streamers, a Raspberry Pi 3B+ and SOtM sMS-200. The sms is clearly in another price range but sounds best. The Pi sounds better than Chromecast, with any of my DAC's. I believe this is an opinion you will see on any audiophile site that has compared them. Of course if you just look at measurements and don't listen, you may come to a different conclusion.

do you have the sms-200 and the altair??

[beerandmusic]

2 hours ago, audiobomber said:

Ah, if it were only that simple; read the measurements, buy the gear. For some, it is that simple, but by my definition, they are not audiophiles, they are in an adjacent hobby.

 

I bought the Topping D50s, for my headphone system, based on great measurements but also because I already owned the matching P50 LPS. Unfortunately, it sounded worse than Schitt, and by Schitt, I mean the much cheaper Modi 3. It also did not compare well with my Korg DA-DAC-100M, which has a pretty nice headphone amp. I sent the Topping back to Amazon.

Yea, i have tried several DSD dacs, korg being one of probably 10...i loved it for the audiogate software and it sounded really good to me when using audiogate.  There is something magic about the schiit sound, but apparently (according to miska and pkane) it is crap by measurements and can't even accurately recreate a 1k sine signal.

[beerandmusic]

thanks for all who assisted including the private pm's....

Seemed most people that responded like going to a remote computer or pi connected directly to dac.

I happen to have a half dozen asus vivo mini computers here, and i googled "asus vivo roon rock" and did find some have had success using it with roon rock, so i gave it a shot...i had a few initial problems, but got it working.  As much as I have bad mouthed ROON (mainly because it is subscription based) it does look pretty cool...not sure I am willing to pay the monthly subscription but i have 14 days to check it out, so i will give it a shot.  I think that it may sound a little better than jriver playing on my local every day windows computer (but not as dramatic as i had hoped), and I don't think it sounds better than me streaming dsd to my marantz...but i like the interface more and i can ff/rew music again.   Been a long day, going to bed....but I have a new toy to play with tomorrow (roon rock on asus mini)....if i do stick with roon rock, at least i didn't have to buy new hardware.

[beerandmusic]

15 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

My gist of it was that a 16 bit R2R @ 192 Fs would produce measurable differences at the DAC output and in the audible range. This is not the same as saying it is audible. I believe the main thrust from @Miska was that DA conversion could be improved with DSP algorithms/ upsampling/ filters and this may or may not yield subjective SQ improvements (many apparently do hear improvements). All that said the choice of DAC is still important as all dacs do not perform the same.

Measurements do not not tell the whole story. There is no free lunch - only you can decide what you like - measurements can help guide you decide what to listen to, sometimes they will correlate with what you hear, sometimes not.

Yea, I am not sure what the schiits do differently that (at least to my ears) make them sound more lively, more like "real music" compared to about 10 different dsd dacs i have tried.  I even stuck with DSD for a several years, thinking that the schiit sounded better in some way, and recently bought another one just to see if I was missing something, and again, it just seemed to make the music come more "alive"...that is when i started reading more about the benefits of DSD (previously believing that with more samples you get more music) and to find out that is not true....that the only purpose of upsampling is to push the noise that is created during analog conversion out of the hearing spectrum....and i also believe I read that for a 44.1K that you can push this noise out of the hearing spectrum by upsampling to only 192k...anyway, i clearly have to read more to better understand.  But i do want a dac that does what it is supposed to do, and that is to accurately reproduce the recorded signal, and if DSD dacs do that better, then i will likely be back in the DSD camp again, and likely miss the schiit sound (grin).  Actually I still prefer streaming DSD to my marantz better than any other method I have tried...it probably has more to do with no pc noise than the dac itself.

[beerandmusic]

10 hours ago, audiobomber said:

I don't have a definitive answer, I'm still investigating. The new Altair is on my list due to SQ, but the question of how to control it is a sticking point, especially since I am an Android phone user and will never change. From the Auralic site:

 

Music can be sourced from virtually any source - locally stored files on your network, Internet radio, Airplay™, Bluetooth, USB drive, an optional integrated hard drive or a playlist of favorites from a subscription-based streaming service such as Qobuz or TIDAL. Control is via either the proprietary Lightning DS app, or the manual intuitive control on the front panel with all functions clearly shown on the high-resolution 4" colour display.

 

I am not clear on whether I can use UPnP/Android or DLNA/Windows from my NAS, as I usually do. Also, no remote wand? Maybe the reviewer can help clarify, @The Computer Audiophile?

about 3-4 years ago, I was very close to buying the original altair (good clocks, lps) when i found out the only control method was apple, and like you, no apples in my house....back then i heard they were working on something for andoid, but don't know if they ever resolved for that.  I really don't want android either.  I want something i can run with windows (without an emulator).

I wish there was some player that just used a web browser, that would be nice....right now, i think volumio is the only one that does that??

[beerandmusic]

Well i created a volumio image and i really like the interface!!

 

I really wanted a player I could manage from any browser, as I pretty much live on my computer.  I rarely use my smart phone because i should wear glasses, but too lazy to put on reading glasses on and off...

Anyway, I am going to cancel roon trial, because i don't want to pay a subscription...it was a nice interface, but going to try volumio for awhile...anyone know if you can use hqp with volumio?

 

I haven't done any critical listening yet, but for every day use, i think this will be my keeper solution!

 

I really LOVE that you can control all aspects (configuration and player) from a web browser...sweet!