Into the Future

[beerandmusic]

 

Any salesman that admits they have sold snakeoil may be worth listening to...

 

 

[beerandmusic]

3 minutes ago, SJK said:

Dude, you keep making this personal - we should be able to have a discussion without people being insulted.

 

My point wasn't that there's anything wrong with CD players, but more that most system design today does not include that element.  While all CD players can read the digital data well, the implementation of the analog side is where the true art form exists.  The CD players that do analog very well tend to be expensive units and for good reason.

 

However, by ripping a CD to a digital file, the key element now becomes the quality of the DAC that you have in your system.  If your stereo has a DAC already, and within any budget, you can buy a much better DAC because you no longer need that CD player with a DAC that likely isn't as good as a standalone unit.  That's why high-end CD players can be had at a reasonable cost, it's the buggy whip of the past.  

 

And, by ripping the CD to a digital file you have many more options on how that file can be played back with different software programs that allow for a system to be tweaked, upgraded or changed for a desired goal.  

 

many times a cd transport can sound better (either using their internal dac or an external one) than playing the same file from a software player.

[StephenJK]

6 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

many times a cd transport can sound better (either using their internal dac or an external one) than playing the same file from a software player.

I only ever owned one transport - can't remember what it was as I didn't have it very long as part of a "transitional" system.  I agree that a transport allows you to play the CD without the built-in DAC getting in the way.  I'm not clear as to how that could be better than playing back a file from software.  

 

To your mind, is that because the software is inadequate or do you think the file ripping process is the culprit?

[Digi&Analog Fan]

That could be useful info if I ever try that route in the future. I am always modding my CD players, including the analog stage. When I take a CD player to a high end shop and have them hook it up to hear an amp or speakers, they always want to look inside my player after. My ideas are in there though. I once told a dealer if you let me take out the midrange driver of that over $100,000 speaker (very well known high end brand) and let me see the driver make and model on back of the magnet, I'll let you look inside my CD player. The midrange was a $260 driver, from a European driver manufacturer which also makes a $400, $600, $800, $1,000, $1,200  driver and those even higher up. If this company is the rule rather than the exception, then what's inside is a shortchange too, for the fortune that someone foolish enough gives them.

[beerandmusic]

34 minutes ago, SJK said:

I only ever owned one transport - can't remember what it was as I didn't have it very long as part of a "transitional" system.  I agree that a transport allows you to play the CD without the built-in DAC getting in the way.  I'm not clear as to how that could be better than playing back a file from software.  

 

To your mind, is that because the software is inadequate or do you think the file ripping process is the culprit?

 

no problems with ripping if you use dbpoweramp (one of only a dozen programs i have ever paid for)...shows if rip is accurate along with checksum.

 

i am sure it has to do with timing and power.

 

I am not sure i have ever got better sound from a source than playing a bluray audio or sacd from a marantz sacd player regardless of what dac i had it hooked up to....and i know there are a lot more expensive transports out there....even plain cd players.

 

Edit to add....

 

Even Mike Moffat (sp?) of Schiit DAC engineering, is working on a CD transport that he "suggests" will sound better than anything he has ever heard and I don't know if he said in jest or not, but his remark was something like "I dunno it's only 1's and 0's, right?"...   If  a DAC engineer can't suggest why a transport can sound better than a software player, then who knows....but I have experienced similarly... I really don't know about audio engineering....it either has "relatively" plateaued and is almost all snakeoil, but all these supposed "BIG WOW" moments are hardly impressive to me, and I am not convinced that you can't piece together some of the best vintage equipment in a dbt against modern day stuff and see a 70%+ concensus....but again, i think they can do it a lot cheaper today though....

[The Computer Audiophile]

23 minutes ago, Digi&Analog Fan said:

That could be useful info if I ever try that route in the future. I am always modding my CD players, including the analog stage. When I take a CD player to a high end shop and have them hook it up to hear an amp or speakers, they always want to look inside my player after. My ideas are in there though. I once told a dealer if you let me take out the midrange driver of that over $100,000 speaker (very well known high end brand) and let me see the driver make and model on back of the magnet, I'll let you look inside my CD player. The midrange was a $260 driver, from a European driver manufacturer which also makes a $400, $600, $800, $1,000, $1,200  driver and those even higher up. If this company is the rule rather than the exception, then what's inside is a shortchange too, for the fortune that someone foolish enough gives them.

We get it, you believe you're smarter and more competent than the people who build this stuff for a living. You've also determined how much they pay in employee healthy care, retirement, facility rent, cabinet costs etc, to determine the products are way over priced. 

 

Perhaps you should start a Digi&Analog Audio Company and sell the stuff at a fraction of the price and be the savior of all high end audio. 

[beerandmusic]

5 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

We get it, you believe you're smarter and more competent than the people who build this stuff for a living. You've also determined how much they pay in employee healthy care, retirement, facility rent, cabinet costs etc, to determine the products are way over priced. 

 

Perhaps you should start a Digi&Analog Audio Company and sell the stuff at a fraction of the price and be the savior of all high end audio. 

 

That sounds almost border-line like personal attack?

Not saying you are wrong...just sounds personal.

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, beerandmusic said:

 

That sounds almost border-line like personal attack?

 

What about it is a personal attack. The guy/gal always says he can do things much better than the manufacturers and his comments about the costs of materials are also along the same lines. I can only go by what s/he says. 

[beerandmusic]

3 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

What about it is a personal attack. The guy/gal always says he can do things much better than the manufacturers and his comments about the costs of materials are also along the same lines. I can only go by what s/he says. 

 

I think you could express your point without using "attack" words...take a moment and see if you could word it differently?  Sounded "off the cuff"

[beerandmusic]

The biggest issue is the time in engineering costs.  It's not the BOM....people forget this....new designs have to include "cost of engineering".

[The Computer Audiophile]

6 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

I think you could express your point without using "attack" words...take a moment and see if you could word it differently?  Sounded "off the cuff"

Please let me know what the personal attack words are.

[beerandmusic]

7 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Please let me know what the personal attack words are.

"you believe you are smarter and more competent"

"you have determined"

"be our savior"

"start your own company"

 

could be:::

 

Is it possible that there are more costs involved in running a business and that the BOM is the least of the expenses?

Have you ever owned your own business and know the costs that are involved?

 

My mom used to always say to try and phrase your remarks as questions as to be less confrontational....not that i ever listened to my mom (smile).

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, beerandmusic said:

"you believe you are smarter and more competent"

"you have determined"

"be our savior"

"start your own company"

 

could be:::

 

Is it possible that there are more costs involved in running a business and that the BOM is the least of the expenses?

Have you ever owned your own business and know the costs that are involved?

 

My mom used to always say to try and phrase your remarks as questions as to be less confrontational....not that i ever listened to my mom (smile).

 

 

No comment.

[Digi&Analog Fan]

Its extremely "bizzare" to be attacked by the owner of a forum for simply stating my personal experience. I never said I was smarter than all or any manufacturers. There are certain things that manufacturers do not bother to do inside their products that would be too labor intensive that I know how to do, and can implement and improve upon. And yes, in my decades of experiments I'm sure I have learned some things that very few if any have also discovered. When a worthwhile, creative, funny, knowledgeable interesting person joins your mostly rather boring forum, do you harass them instead of being ggrateful? Do you think it would be a traumatic experience or just awful to be removed from a forum like this? What is your IQ? By the way the ultra expensive speaker brand I was talking about is one that I am sure you personally and intimately know.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, Digi&Analog Fan said:

Its extremely "bizzare" to be attacked by the owner of a forum for simply stating my personal experience. I never said I was smarter than all or any manufacturers. There are certain things that manufacturers do not bother to do inside their products that would be too labor intensive that I know how to do, and can implement and improve upon. And yes, in my decades of experiments I'm sure I have learned some things that very few if any have also discovered. When a worthwhile, creative, funny, knowledgeable interesting person joins your mostly rather boring forum, do you harass them instead of being ggrateful? Do you think it would be a traumatic experience or just awful to be removed from a forum like this? What is your IQ? By the way the ultra expensive speaker brand I was talking about is one that I am sure you personally and intimately know.

I'll let you words speak for themselves. 

[beerandmusic]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

No comment.

You asked, i just gave you my opinion...i am not stating I am any more perfect...i just found it funny that you just said "no personal attacks". 

 

I guess it is just "relative".

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, beerandmusic said:

You asked, i just gave you my opinion...i am not stating I am any more perfect...i just found it funny that you just said "no personal attacks". 

 

I guess it is just "relative".

 

 

I didn't attack anyone. When someone says they know more than others etc... It isn't an attack to say it back to them. 

[beerandmusic]

3 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I didn't attack anyone. When someone says they know more than others etc... It isn't an attack to say it back to them. 

Chris, I haven't followed this guys posts but based on his last post questioning your IQ, i would give him the boot...clearly he is a trouble maker...

I am sure you got your wilsons for a dance, and I am envious...this guy is just trouble.

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

Chris, I haven't followed this guys posts but based on his last post questioning your IQ, i would give him the boot...clearly he is a trouble maker...

To be honest, I couldn't even finish reading the entire thing until you said that. I went back to look. It's par for the course these days. Many people believe they are much more important than they are and feel like everyone owes them something. As an example, here is a PM I received not too long ago. I hope you can see how this gets really old. 

 

 

[beerandmusic]

11 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

To be honest, I couldn't even finish reading the entire thing until you said that. I went back to look. It's par for the course these days. Many people believe they are much more important than they are and feel like everyone owes them something. As an example, here is a PM I received not too long ago. I hope you can see how this gets really old. 

 

 

You earn much more than whatever you make, that is for sure!  People are just envious.  You have a successful business that is a service to the community...you couldn't be more proud.

[NOMBEDES]

Silly rabbit. It is not the equipment you remember it is the time, the place, it is what you were when you were there.

 

When I listen to an early Beatles song, I can still remember her perfume, her touch, the pure joy of a powerful 390 ford V8 on a back road in the Santa Maria Valley.   The excitement of getting someone to buy us a case of Coors beer.  The music came out of a car radio from a station in LA which we could only hear on a good night.  No one cared about the speakers, no one knew what Hi Fi was.  We only waited for the DJ to play the "full length" version of the song.

 

Just like my parents would listen to big band (WW2) music until their death, we will listen and remember the songs of our youth filtered through the memory of that perfume, that kiss.

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, NOMBEDES said:

Silly rabbit. It is not the equipment you remember it is the time, the place, it is what you were when you were there.

 

When I listen to an early Beatles song, I can still remember her perfume, her touch, the pure joy of a powerful 390 ford V8 on a back road in the Santa Maria Valley.   The excitement of getting someone to buy us a case of Coors beer.  The music came out of a car radio from a station in LA which we could only hear on a good night.  No one cared about the speakers, no one knew what Hi Fi was.  We only waited for the DJ to play the "full length" version of the song.

 

Just like my parents would listen to big band (WW2) music until their death, we will listen and remember the songs of our youth filtered through the memory of that perfume, that kiss.

I love it!

[ARQuint]

2 hours ago, Digi&Analog Fan said:

When a worthwhile, creative, funny, knowledgeable interesting person joins your mostly rather boring forum, do you harass them instead of being ggrateful?

 

Sigh.

Another audiophile with low self-esteem.

[Norton]

4 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

many times a cd transport can sound better (either using their internal dac or an external one) than playing the same file from a software player.

There certainly seems to be something of a small revival of interest in CD players and transport across various forums.  I don’t know whether this is just clever pre- marketing from the likes of Schitt or something more.  A back to back test of SOTA CDT/CDP vs file based replay would  be interesting.  Personally I find  that file playback from a custom thumb drive  or SD card  card transport beats both streaming and disc SQ wise, and is more convenient than a CD player too.

[StephenJK]

2 hours ago, Norton said:

There certainly seems to be something of a small revival of interest in CD players and transport across various forums.  I don’t know whether this is just clever pre- marketing from the likes of Schitt or something more.  A back to back test of SOTA CDT/CDP vs file based replay would  be interesting.  Personally I find  that file playback from a custom thumb drive  or SD card  card transport beats both streaming and disc SQ wise, and is more convenient than a CD player too.

I think that the world of digital music playback has moved beyond the hardware and well into the software/configuration side of things.  

 

I don't claim to be an expert on the topic - like most here I'm an enthusiast, a music fan, an audiophile and the member of a like-minded community.  

 

Playback of an accurate digital file, where that original file is never changed, is with so many combinations and permutations as to make your head spin.  Man.  I've jumped from laptops to digital players to DACs to streaming DACs and back to laptops.

 

The most telling point I can share with anyone here is when I was doing a test drive with Roon, and admittedly with hardware that was "Roon Ready" - with Devialet Expert Pro 440 monoblocks.  

 

We've been using JRiver Media Center for years, and have always supported their every upgrade - because they need the support.  It's all they do, and they do it well.  They use the Devialet AIR driver as an output. 

 

Roon, with their association with Devialet have developed their own driver that enables streaming directly with an embedded driver.

 

The difference was subtle, but certainly an improvement if that makes any sense - it just sounds better.  The point is, and key words here - if you have the hardware capable of fully resolving your music, significant gains can be made on the software side.  

 

I wouldn't have believed it years ago.  I do now.