ASRMichael Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 Sorry to throw this in at late stage, if other are not too bothered about additional height. Why can we not keep the footprint the same, but have it double the height? this way we could house a series of options on the 2nd tier? - HDPlex DC/DC - OCXO Clock board like Pinkfaun for CPU & Chipset (short cable connections) - LPS parts. For me taking a Sean Jacobs LPS parts for example, sitting them on the 2nd tier would mean very short cable runs. A two tier heatsink means we could add additional cooling to LPS. We're not talking much in height just enough for the height of Transformer. 100mm say. I believe the existing Turemetal is 150mm in height, so 250 height overall. -EtherRegen - Whatever you want really I think this gives the DIYers more flexibility. Link to comment
Hauser Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 Take a look at Taiko Extreme. They mount the transformer on end. The Toroidy 400 is 65 x 150 Dia. So long as the case internal is min 160 ht. should be good to go. Then can also orientate horizontally. Martin Link to comment
ASRMichael Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 My SJ 7 rails, 3 transformers take up lot more space than the extreme. Link to comment
dminches Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 4 hours ago, ASRMichael said: Sorry to throw this in at late stage, if other are not too bothered about additional height. Why can we not keep the footprint the same, but have it double the height? this way we could house a series of options on the 2nd tier? As is, the Sage motherboard won't fit into the case. If we are going to design something custom, all aspects of the size should be on the table. Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7s, 4 M&K ST-150Ts, 1 VCC-5; Amplification: 2 Vandersteen M7-HPAs, CI Audio D200 MKII, Ayre V-6xe; Preamp: Doshi Audio Line Stage v3.0; Phono Pre: Doshi Audio Phono Pre; Analog: Wave Kinetics NVS with Durand Telos composite arm; SME 3012R arm, Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement v2; Reel to Reel: Technics RS-1500; Doshi Tape Pre-Amp; Studer A810, Studer A812, Tascam BR-20; Multi-channel: Bryston SP-3; Digital: Custom PC (Sean Jacobs DC4/Euphony/Stylus)> Lampizator Pacific Link to comment
zerung Posted June 2, 2020 Author Share Posted June 2, 2020 5 hours ago, ASRMichael said: double the height? this way we could house a series of options on the 2nd tier? 17 minutes ago, dminches said: If we are going to design something custom, all aspects of the size should be on the table. Ultimately it needs to be a consensus. Based on agreed functionality, pitted against cost. We also want it to look cool. We could open this to Turemetal to comment on and cost. Ultimately we need to design this like Musk Not Job. What ever that implies... 😄 Qnap NAS (LPS) >UA ETHER REGEN (BG7TBL Master Clock) > Grimm MU1 > Mola Mola Tambaqui /Meridian 808.3> Wavac EC300B >Tannoy Canterbury SE HP Rig ++ >Woo WES/ > Stax SR-009, Audeze LCD2 Link to comment
Popular Post Nenon Posted June 2, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 2, 2020 @ASRMichael I suggest we leave the power supply outside of the box. The transformer impacts the sounds in two ways - it generates a lot of EMI and vibrations. Putting a transformer inside the motherboard chassis always degraded the sound quality in my system. I tried this many times and the result was always the same. Actually much more audible than I thought. Even while playing, moving the power supply closer to the motherboard has an audible impact. Based on multiple tests, with different transformers but mainly the Toroidy Supreme, I decided I would never host the transformer in the computer chassis. Somebody was preaching that this is the best way to go in the other thread. I can't disagree more but did not want to argue with him. Adding (good quality) connectors and umbilicals increase the output impedance of the power supply, but the impact of that impedance increase is nowhere near the damage the transformer does when in proximity to the motherboard. Taiko uses a thick plate (looks at least 5 mm, maybe more) and a thick piece of PANZERHOLZ wood to isolate the transformer. That provides both EMI and vibration treatment. I did try a 3 mm plate between the transformer and the motherboard as well as a 25mm heatsink. But I could always hear sound quality degradations to some extent. Positioning the transformer changes the level of impact. With a lot of testing you can find a position (i.e. vertical or horizontal and at a specific angle) where the transformer would have less impact. But you need to do that in a prototype case and then design the case accordingly. Starting with the final version of the case without having the option to make changes after careful testing is not the best way to go if you are to place a transformer inside. That position of the transformer and a thick plate would help with EMI. Vibration isolation also helps. I have even tried putting the transformer on a set of Stillpoint Ultra 6 feet. But I could never get it to the point where there is no impact if the transformer is inside the chassis. I feel like placing the transformer inside the Extreme was a carefully measured compromise. The Extreme chassis is the most expensive part of the server. If they had to make it in two chassis it would add a lot more to the cost and shipping. It would also make the server so big and heavy that it would not fit in many systems. My guess is with careful placement and isolation the overall result was satisfactory at the end. With the transformer outside the chassis, we can do other improvements. For example, if we are talking about a Sean Jacobs power supply, we could host the regulators inside the motherboard chassis and use super short cables for the ATX and EPS connectors. Yes, that is certainly a good idea, but we have another problem - heat. The cooler we keep the power supply and the computer components, the better. They would last longer and sound better. Let's take Sean's DC4 for example, his best LPS. For the amount of current my dual Xeon Asus Sage draws, a DC4 would have to dissipate at least 50W. That would keep the overall temperature of the Turemetal case several degrees higher. I don't think that's a good idea. So for a dual CPU configuration the right balance for me is to keep the power supply external and use good DC connectors and umbilicals. A 65W TDP single CPU system is another story - I would put the regulator inside fot best performance on such system. But a dual CPU build has its own set of challanges that need careful consideration. Having said all that, it might be a good idea to add space (and preferable predrilled holes) for two connectors in the chassis - one for the EPS and one for the Hdplex. Jaeger 536603006 is a good option - Paul Hynes uses them as an optional (XLR) upgrade to his custom dual regulated SR-7. And if you want to go crazy, the Jaeger 533760006 is a monster overkill connector. I use it, and it's the best connector I have seen (don't often look at connectors, so there might be better ones). For those who don't want to use connectors, the two connector openings (holes) can be used to run cables through them. Last thing to say. Accounting for power supply components in the chassis would create a lot of challenges as I don't think we would find 10 people who would like to use the exact same LPS in the exact same configuration. I feel like it would make this project impossible to complete. My recommendation is to stay away from that. Focus on the requirements we already agreed. And if people like my idea about connector holes, let's add that to the wishlist. You need 5 holes for the Jaeger connectors and they are not easy to do manually. That turned out to be a long post - sorry. StreamFidelity, ASRMichael and shahed99 2 1 Industry disclosure: https://chicagohifi.com Dealer for: Taiko Audio, Conrad Johnson, Audio Mirror, and Sean Jacobs Link to comment
zerung Posted June 2, 2020 Author Share Posted June 2, 2020 @Nenon Our build needs to be as democratic as possible. But a design by consensus may just be that. An acceptance of a base standard, one that I am not necessary supportive of. You have illustrated your views in a concise manner and I am fully behind this. I also think that there may be some resonance issues too. All power parts (TX in particular) hum, these are sure to have some effect on the motherboard and the parts therein. But if we are able to have the case just wide enough, then few of the 10 could put what they want in that and rest not. I would personally follow your recommendation and put the regulators inside, possibly clock too. We are firming up, I feel. I hope we can have one more show of faith, Then wish for the 5 people with wavering commitment to tip over. Lets get this case done - soon! Incidentally: 1. Turemetal noted that they are fully confident of their TDP design. They have tested their heatsink design to ~280W. 2. They recommend max outer height of 150mm. Cost will be a big issue after that. 3. They want us to give them the internal dimension. Then they can propose the way forward. ASRMichael 1 Qnap NAS (LPS) >UA ETHER REGEN (BG7TBL Master Clock) > Grimm MU1 > Mola Mola Tambaqui /Meridian 808.3> Wavac EC300B >Tannoy Canterbury SE HP Rig ++ >Woo WES/ > Stax SR-009, Audeze LCD2 Link to comment
Popular Post Nenon Posted June 2, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 2, 2020 Here are my requirements: - A chassis based on the Turemetal UP10 design - same quality parts, thickness, look and feel. - Support for the Asus Sage motherboard - predrilled holes and mounting accessories to be provided. - Support for dual Intel Xeon 4210 CPUs with all necessary mounting components, copper cooling blocks, and cooling pipes. - Utilize one heatsink per CPU. - The overall cooling implementation should be able to cool down those two 80W TDP CPUs sufficiently. - Support for 7 x full height PCIe slots. - Support to vertically mount one HDplex 800W DC-ATX to the back of the front plate. - Cut out for two Jaeger connectors on the back right side (the side where the ATX and EPS connectors on the motherboard are). - Dimensions not to exceed 400 mm. If they can do this for $1,000, I am in. And I think I would be able can convince at least two other people who are not participating in this thread to join as well. ASRMichael and Peter Avgeris 1 1 Industry disclosure: https://chicagohifi.com Dealer for: Taiko Audio, Conrad Johnson, Audio Mirror, and Sean Jacobs Link to comment
ASRMichael Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 ThankS @Nenon, all makes sense. I certainly wouldn’t want something that degrades the sound. Your testing is so valuable. I’ll take it back cheers Link to comment
Popular Post gerardiw Posted June 2, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 2, 2020 Nenon's comments are sensible. My only comment for consideration would be to have as many ventilation holes in the base as is sensible. The only photo I have seen of the base shows some but not many. zerung and Nenon 2 Link to comment
bobfa Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 I am still following along. I like where this is going. Keeping the requirements simple helps. Someday,... I. may be tempted.... My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post adamaley Posted June 4, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 4, 2020 Please put me down as committed. dminches and zerung 2 Link to comment
Popular Post zerung Posted June 6, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted June 6, 2020 Here is the UPDATED list. 1. @zerung 2. @dminches 3. @shahed99 4. @ASRMichael 5. @gerardiw 6. @adamaley 7.5 @Nsxturbo 8.5 @AudioDoctor 9.5 @Nenon 10.5 @Nenon 11.5 @Nenon The list looks sweet. I have transmitted our requirement, Turemetal will do some drawings, send us the details next week for the next steps. Nenon, adamaley and The Computer Audiophile 1 1 1 Qnap NAS (LPS) >UA ETHER REGEN (BG7TBL Master Clock) > Grimm MU1 > Mola Mola Tambaqui /Meridian 808.3> Wavac EC300B >Tannoy Canterbury SE HP Rig ++ >Woo WES/ > Stax SR-009, Audeze LCD2 Link to comment
basillus Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 Hi, I just saw and read this thread now and I must say, that it’s sound and looks good, so if I am not to late, I am in, If they can do this for about $1,000. zerung 1 Link to comment
Nenon Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 48 minutes ago, basillus said: Hi, I just saw and read this thread now and I must say, that it’s sound and looks good, so if I am not to late, I am in, If they can do this for about $1,000. You are actually number 10.5 in the list :). On 6/5/2020 at 11:04 PM, zerung said: Here is the UPDATED list. 1. @zerung 2. @dminches 3. @shahed99 4. @ASRMichael 5. @gerardiw 6. @adamaley 7.5 @Nsxturbo 8.5 @AudioDoctor 9.5 @Nenon 10.5 @Nenon 11.5 @Nenon You were one of the two I had in mind. On 6/2/2020 at 12:40 PM, Nenon said: If they can do this for $1,000, I am in. And I think I would be able can convince at least two other people who are not participating in this thread to join as well. zerung 1 Industry disclosure: https://chicagohifi.com Dealer for: Taiko Audio, Conrad Johnson, Audio Mirror, and Sean Jacobs Link to comment
zerung Posted June 18, 2020 Author Share Posted June 18, 2020 Folks, Turemetal is a one man band. He has been very busy, and has pushed us to the back...... He said he will send some drawings last week and I have been leaving him alone. Will update when I am given more information. Qnap NAS (LPS) >UA ETHER REGEN (BG7TBL Master Clock) > Grimm MU1 > Mola Mola Tambaqui /Meridian 808.3> Wavac EC300B >Tannoy Canterbury SE HP Rig ++ >Woo WES/ > Stax SR-009, Audeze LCD2 Link to comment
zerung Posted July 5, 2020 Author Share Posted July 5, 2020 So nothing from Truemetal. I have contacted him two weeks ago, when he was still keen. But I have now lost my patience and the interest that kept me going..... I will consider this thread to be in furlough, possibly dead? Apologies for the hope! Qnap NAS (LPS) >UA ETHER REGEN (BG7TBL Master Clock) > Grimm MU1 > Mola Mola Tambaqui /Meridian 808.3> Wavac EC300B >Tannoy Canterbury SE HP Rig ++ >Woo WES/ > Stax SR-009, Audeze LCD2 Link to comment
Tatomek7 Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 I could be interested, if it will happen. Anyhow I’m already in the process of building the server, so I will need the case. Link to comment
Popular Post Nenon Posted July 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 5, 2020 3 hours ago, zerung said: So nothing from Truemetal. I have contacted him two weeks ago, when he was still keen. But I have now lost my patience and the interest that kept me going..... I will consider this thread to be in furlough, possibly dead? Apologies for the hope! Thank you for trying! I am actually quite happy with the way I did the passive cooling as described here: On 5/25/2020 at 1:03 PM, Nenon said: Asus SAGE / dual Xeon CPU passive cooling Below is what I did to passively cool the dual Intel Xeon Silver 4210 CPUs in the Asus SAGE motherboard. I could not find a solution to passively cool the Intel Xeon Silver 4210 CPUs. Streacom, HDPlex, and some of the other common passive computer chassis do not provide a solution for LGA3647 sockets. Also, most of them are limited to 65W TDP or 95W TDP. Cooling down two 85W TDP CPUs is quite challenging. Turemetal UP10 looks like a really nice case, but the ASUS Sage motherboard (12'' x 13'') does not fit inside according to their specs. And even if it could fit, the mounting on the LGA3647 sockets is very unique. You need very precise parts to be able to mount the CPU without damaging anything. The first thing I did to get started was to buy 2 x Noctua NH-D9 DX-3647 4U CPU coolers. Those are active CPU coolers, but I wanted to make sure everything was working properly. The motherboard posted, both CPU tested well, so I started looking for a way to do the passive cooling. The LGA3647 comes in two variations - narrow and square. The Asus SAGE motherboard uses the square version. After some research, ordering some parts, returning some, I decided to use the Dynatron B9 CPU cooler as a base. This is how it looks - top and bottom: We don't need the fan, so that can be removed. But we need the mounting mechanism for the socket. After removing the fan, we end up with a heatsink that can be used as a base. The surface area on those Xeon Silver CPUs is much larger than a typical consumer CPU such as Intel Core or AMD Ryzen. I would need two HDPlex passive cooling kits to cover one CPU. I ended up getting four HDPlex H5 chassis for this project. An explanation of the process with pictures follows below. I started removing some of the material to make space for the HDPlex cooling kit. Now we have enough space for the copper HDPlex cooling block. We need the surface to be as smooth as possible. Sanded with 400 grit sandpaper, followed by 600 grit, 1000 grit, and 2000 grit. I used wet sandpaper from an auto parts store and some soap water. Here is the result. I did a little more fine sanding and polishing to prepare the surface. It's now ready to install the 2 HDPlex copper blocks. They fit perfectly. My research time was well worth, and the Dynatron B9 looks like the perfect solution. The next big research was on thermal epoxy. I needed to glue the two HDPlex copper blocks to the B9 with glue that would transfer the heat from one material to another as efficiently as possible. I picked the MG Chemicals 834HTC-A High Thermal Conductivity Epoxy for that. Cleaned the surface with 90% alcohol, let it dry, and applied a thin layer of the epoxy. I used two heavy duty clamps and let the epoxy cure in my oven on a low temperature for a few hours. All done with that part. Here is the final result. I repeated the same process for the second CPU. With two in place, it's time to install them. Here comes the second problem. No passive cooled chassis is designed to cool two CPUs. The HDPlex H5 (and most others) has two heatsinks, and typically only one is actually used for CPU cooling. The idea is to use one heatsink for each CPU. In order to do that, I had to buy new cooling pipes, a pipe bending tool, and learn how to bend them. I had to do some reading on cooling pipes, learn how they work, learn about the different designs, different materials, etc. I did not know any of that stuff before this project. There are quite a few things to consider - the shape, the materials, the quality, how you bend them, etc. They are filled with liquid and you can't cut them. Also, you have to be careful not to crack them when you bend them. The bending radius can impact the performance. They come in different lengths and some are better quality than others. I liked the products a company called "Advanced Thermal Solutions" makes. Bending pipes is a skill that I need to practice more. Here is my first attempt - looks ugly but it worked great. The CPU on the top uses the stock HDPlex cooling pipes. The CPU on the bottom with the six longer ugly-bended pipes is what I did. To my surprise when I turned on the computer, I realized that the bottom CPU's temperature is lower than the top CPU. One was in the low 40's after a couple of days of playing music and the other was in the high 40's. That's degrees Celsius obviously. We have to be careful with a dual CPU configuration, because one CPU could be hotter because it is doing more than the other. I made sure that was not why the top CPU was a few degrees hotter. I decided to replace the stock HDPlex cooling pipes with new ones. I did much better job with the bending, but I don't have a picture handy. You will have to trust me on that one :). One problem with the HDPlex cooling kit is that the pipes are short and don't cover the entire cooling block. I'll refer to this post for more info / picture: By replacing the stock cooling pipes I had the chance to use longer pipes and cover more surface. Not sure if the cooling pipes I used are better than the stock HDPlex or it was because they covered more surface area, but I saw about 7-8 degrees lower temperature with the new pipes. I am guessing it's both - better quality pipes and more surface area. In fact, now the top CPU is about 1-2 degrees cooler than the bottom CPU. The thermal epoxy also takes about a week to 10 days to settle completely. It gets more efficient over time. Overall quite happy with the result. CPUs stay in the 40's depending on room temperature. It is 84F degrees in Chicago today, and I saw them running as hot as 49C. I'll go deal with my A/C now that I am done with this post. My computer has been running like this for 3-4 months already, and it keeps getting better over time (not sure why but it's a fact). CPU temperature is in the low 40's now. You may also want to keep an eye on the thread below... It's still on, at least for now. Exocer and zerung 2 Industry disclosure: https://chicagohifi.com Dealer for: Taiko Audio, Conrad Johnson, Audio Mirror, and Sean Jacobs Link to comment
gerardiw Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 It seems a shame to have not got very far with Turemetal as it looked like an excellent solution. Is it worth trying them once more? Link to comment
Peter Avgeris Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 19 hours ago, Nenon said: Thank you for trying! I am actually quite happy with the way I did the passive cooling as described here: My computer has been running like this for 3-4 months already, and it keeps getting better over time (not sure why but it's a fact). CPU temperature is in the low 40's now. You may also want to keep an eye on the thread below... It's still on, at least for now. Yes. It is active. But first I need to have in my hands the Ram chips to power up the beast! This is what I have been waiting for... Design & Manufacture of High Fidelity Audio Equipment http://www.exoticaudiodesign.com/ Link to comment
Nenon Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 1 hour ago, Peter Avgeris said: Yes. It is active. But first I need to have in my hands the Ram chips to power up the beast! This is what I have been waiting for... RAM is coming. I have been waiting 4 months for it, but it's finally here! Industry disclosure: https://chicagohifi.com Dealer for: Taiko Audio, Conrad Johnson, Audio Mirror, and Sean Jacobs Link to comment
Tatomek7 Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 I’m still waiting. I hope, finally it will arrive. I ordered in Mouser, but they have no news from producer. Link to comment
ASRMichael Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 @zerung Is it worth trying to resurrect again? Exocer 1 Link to comment
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