TUREMETAL Case for Dual CPU. EOI

[Nenon]

I like the UP10 case a lot. Would that include the needed accessories to passively cool down two Xeon CPUs? If he can include that and design mounting space for a hdplex 800W dc to dc convertor, I believe we can easily get 10 people to join.

Probably best if he can put together a simulation/drawing and give us a price. Then we can gather a group of people who are interested and collect a payment before he does the manufacturing. 

And then there is the other thread started by Peter Avgeris, so we have some options. 

[Nenon]

1 hour ago, zerung said:

To provoke some thoughts, discussion. Here are some sketches.

 

I like it!

[Nenon]

17 minutes ago, bobfa said:

Is anyone putting music storage in their system?  How?  @Nenon I forgot to ask you that before??

 

 

My Euphony / Stylus system is built around NAS storage and with my optimized network and running Euphony in ramroot and buffering each track in RAM before playing, it actually sounds better than local storage.

 

My Windows / Roon system does NOT sound as good playing from NAS as it does with local storage. That's because both Roon and Windows perform a lot of I/O activity while playing - network and OS activity. If full height PCIe cards are supported, the ASUS Hyper M.2 X16 with some M.2 NVME cards in it would be a good option for local storage. It's a better option than the M.2 slot on the Asus Sage motherboard.

[Nenon]

We need to utilize the heatsinks on both sides. The latest drawing suggests that only one side is used.

I would suggest we install the HDplex 800W DC-ATX standing on the back of the 10mm from panel instead of laying on the bottom plate. This way the case does not have to be so deep. All cables can be run on side like on the HDPlex case. This will ensure shorter cable runs too. 

[Nenon]

@ASRMichael

I suggest we leave the power supply outside of the box. 

 

The transformer impacts the sounds in two ways - it generates a lot of EMI and vibrations. 

Putting a transformer inside the motherboard chassis always degraded the sound quality in my system. I tried this many times and the result was always the same. Actually much more audible than I thought. Even while playing, moving the power supply closer to the motherboard has an audible impact. Based on multiple tests, with different transformers but mainly the Toroidy Supreme, I decided I would never host the transformer in the computer chassis.

Somebody was preaching that this is the best way to go in the other thread. I can't disagree more but did not want to argue with him. 

Adding (good quality) connectors and umbilicals increase the output impedance of the power supply, but the impact of that impedance increase is nowhere near the damage the transformer does when in proximity to the motherboard. 

 

Taiko uses a thick plate (looks at least 5 mm, maybe more) and a thick piece of PANZERHOLZ wood to isolate the transformer. That provides both EMI and vibration treatment. I did try a 3 mm plate between the transformer and the motherboard as well as a 25mm heatsink. But I could always hear sound quality degradations to some extent. Positioning the transformer changes the level of impact. With a lot of testing you can find a position (i.e. vertical or horizontal and at a specific angle) where the transformer would have less impact. But you need to do that in a prototype case and then design the case accordingly. Starting with the final version of the case without having the option to make changes after careful testing is not the best way to go if you are to place a transformer inside. That position of the transformer and a thick plate would help with EMI. Vibration isolation also helps. I have even tried putting the transformer on a set of Stillpoint Ultra 6 feet. But I could never get it to the point where there is no impact if the transformer is inside the chassis.

I feel like placing the transformer inside the Extreme was a carefully measured compromise. The Extreme chassis is the most expensive part of the server. If they had to make it in two chassis it would add a lot more to the cost and shipping. It would also make the server so big and heavy that it would not fit in many systems. My guess is with careful placement and isolation the overall result was satisfactory at the end. 

 

With the transformer outside the chassis, we can do other improvements. For example, if we are talking about a Sean Jacobs power supply, we could host the regulators inside the motherboard chassis and use super short cables for the ATX and EPS connectors. Yes, that is certainly a good idea, but we have another problem - heat. The cooler we keep the power supply and the computer components, the better. They would last longer and sound better. Let's take Sean's DC4 for example, his best LPS. For the amount of current my dual Xeon Asus Sage draws, a DC4 would have to dissipate at least 50W. That would keep the overall temperature of the Turemetal case several degrees higher. I don't think that's a good idea. So for a dual CPU configuration the right balance for me is to keep the power supply external and use good DC connectors and umbilicals. A 65W TDP single CPU system is another story - I would put the regulator inside fot best performance on such system. But a dual CPU build has its own set of challanges that need careful consideration. 

 

Having said all that, it might be a good idea to add space (and preferable predrilled holes) for two connectors in the chassis - one for the EPS and one for the Hdplex. 

Jaeger 536603006 is a good option - Paul Hynes uses them as an optional (XLR) upgrade to his custom dual regulated SR-7.

And if you want to go crazy, the Jaeger 533760006 is a monster overkill connector. I use it, and it's the best connector I have seen (don't often look at connectors, so there might be better ones). For those who don't want to use connectors, the two connector openings (holes) can be used to run cables through them. 

 

Last thing to say. Accounting for power supply components in the chassis would create a lot of challenges as I don't think we would find 10 people who would like to use the exact same LPS in the exact same configuration. I feel like it would make this project impossible to complete.

My recommendation is to stay away from that. Focus on the requirements we already agreed. And if people like my idea about connector holes, let's add that to the wishlist. You need 5 holes for the Jaeger connectors and they are not easy to do manually. 

 

That turned out to be a long post - sorry. 

[Nenon]

Here are my requirements:

- A chassis based on the Turemetal UP10 design - same quality parts, thickness, look and feel. 

- Support for the Asus Sage motherboard - predrilled holes and mounting accessories to be provided.

- Support for dual Intel Xeon 4210 CPUs with all necessary mounting components, copper cooling blocks, and cooling pipes.

- Utilize one heatsink per CPU. 

- The overall cooling implementation should be able to cool down those two 80W TDP CPUs sufficiently.

- Support for 7 x full height PCIe slots. 

- Support to vertically mount one HDplex 800W DC-ATX to the back of the front plate.

- Cut out for two Jaeger connectors on the back right side (the side where the ATX and EPS connectors on the motherboard are). 

- Dimensions not to exceed 400 mm. 

 

If they can do this for $1,000, I am in. And I think I would be able can convince at least two other people who are not participating in this thread to join as well. 

[Nenon]

48 minutes ago, basillus said:

Hi, I just saw and read this thread now and I must say, that it’s sound and looks good, so if I am not to late, I am in, If they can do this for about $1,000. 

 

You are actually number 10.5 in the list :). 

On 6/5/2020 at 11:04 PM, zerung said:

Here is the UPDATED list.

1.     @zerung

2.     @dminches

3.     @shahed99

4.     @ASRMichael

5.     @gerardiw

6.     @adamaley

7.5   @Nsxturbo

8.5   @AudioDoctor

9.5   @Nenon

10.5 @Nenon

11.5 @Nenon

 

You were one of the two I had in mind. 

On 6/2/2020 at 12:40 PM, Nenon said:

If they can do this for $1,000, I am in. And I think I would be able can convince at least two other people who are not participating in this thread to join as well. 

 

[Nenon]

3 hours ago, zerung said:

So nothing from Truemetal. I have contacted him two weeks ago, when he was still keen. But I have now lost my patience and the interest that kept me going.....

I will consider this thread to be in furlough, possibly dead?

 

Apologies for the hope!

Thank you for trying!

 

I am actually quite happy with the way I did the passive cooling as described here:

On 5/25/2020 at 1:03 PM, Nenon said:

Asus SAGE / dual Xeon CPU passive cooling

 

Below is what I did to passively cool the dual Intel Xeon Silver 4210 CPUs in the Asus SAGE motherboard. 

 

I could not find a solution to passively cool the Intel Xeon Silver 4210 CPUs. Streacom, HDPlex, and some of the other common passive computer chassis do not provide a solution for LGA3647 sockets. Also, most of them are limited to 65W TDP or 95W TDP. Cooling down two 85W TDP CPUs is quite challenging. Turemetal UP10 looks like a really nice case, but the ASUS Sage motherboard (12'' x 13'') does not fit inside according to their specs. And even if it could fit, the mounting on the LGA3647 sockets is very unique. You need very precise parts to be able to mount the CPU without damaging anything. 

 

The first thing I did to get started was to buy 2 x Noctua NH-D9 DX-3647 4U CPU coolers. Those are active CPU coolers, but I wanted to make sure everything was working properly. The motherboard posted, both CPU tested well, so I started looking for a way to do the passive cooling. 

 

The LGA3647 comes in two variations - narrow and square. The Asus SAGE motherboard uses the square version. After some research, ordering some parts, returning some, I decided to use the Dynatron B9 CPU cooler as a base. This is how it looks - top and bottom:

 

 

We don't need the fan, so that can be removed. But we need the mounting mechanism for the socket. After removing the fan, we end up with a heatsink that can be used as a base.

 

The surface area on those Xeon Silver CPUs is much larger than a typical consumer CPU such as Intel Core or AMD Ryzen. I would need two HDPlex passive cooling kits to cover one CPU. I ended up getting four HDPlex H5 chassis for this project. 

 

An explanation of the process with pictures follows below.

 

I started removing some of the material to make space for the HDPlex cooling kit.

 

Now we have enough space for the copper HDPlex cooling block.

 

We need the surface to be as smooth as possible. Sanded with 400 grit sandpaper, followed by 600 grit, 1000 grit, and 2000 grit. I used wet sandpaper from an auto parts store and some soap water. Here is the result.

 

I did a little more fine sanding and polishing to prepare the surface. It's now ready to install the 2 HDPlex copper blocks. They fit perfectly. My research time was well worth, and the Dynatron B9 looks like the perfect solution. 

 

The next big research was on thermal epoxy. I needed to glue the two HDPlex copper blocks to the B9 with glue that would transfer the heat from one material to another as efficiently as possible. I picked the MG Chemicals 834HTC-A High Thermal Conductivity Epoxy for that. 

 

Cleaned the surface with 90% alcohol, let it dry, and applied a thin layer of the epoxy. I used two heavy duty clamps and let the epoxy cure in my oven on a low temperature for a few hours. All done with that part. Here is the final result. 

 

I repeated the same process for the second CPU. With two in place, it's time to install them. 

 

Here comes the second problem. No passive cooled chassis is designed to cool two CPUs. The HDPlex H5 (and most others) has two heatsinks, and typically only one is actually used for CPU cooling. The idea is to use one heatsink for each CPU. In order to do that, I had to buy new cooling pipes, a pipe bending tool, and learn how to bend them. I had to do some reading on cooling pipes, learn how they work, learn about the different designs, different materials, etc. I did not know any of that stuff before this project. 

There are quite a few things to consider - the shape, the materials, the quality, how you bend them, etc. They are filled with liquid and you can't cut them. Also, you have to be careful not to crack them when you bend them. The bending radius can impact the performance. They come in different lengths and some are better quality than others. I liked the products a company called "Advanced Thermal Solutions" makes.

 

Bending pipes is a skill that I need to practice more. Here is my first attempt - looks ugly but it worked great.

 

The CPU on the top uses the stock HDPlex cooling pipes. The CPU on the bottom with the six longer ugly-bended pipes is what I did. 

To my surprise when I turned on the computer, I realized that the bottom CPU's temperature is lower than the top CPU. One was in the low 40's after a couple of days of playing music and the other was in the high 40's. That's degrees Celsius obviously. We have to be careful with a dual CPU configuration, because one CPU could be hotter because it is doing more than the other. I made sure that was not why the top CPU was a few degrees hotter. 

 

I decided to replace the stock HDPlex cooling pipes with new ones. I did much better job with the bending, but I don't have a picture handy. You will have to trust me on that one :). 

 

One problem with the HDPlex cooling kit is that the pipes are short and don't cover the entire cooling block. I'll refer to this post for more info / picture:

 

By replacing the stock cooling pipes I had the chance to use longer pipes and cover more surface. 

Not sure if the cooling pipes I used are better than the stock HDPlex or it was because they covered more surface area, but I saw about 7-8 degrees lower temperature with the new pipes. I am guessing it's both - better quality pipes and more surface area. 

In fact, now the top CPU is about 1-2 degrees cooler than the bottom CPU. 

 

The thermal epoxy also takes about a week to 10 days to settle completely. It gets more efficient over time. Overall quite happy with the result. CPUs stay in the 40's depending on room temperature. It is 84F degrees in Chicago today, and I saw them running as hot as 49C. I'll go deal with my A/C now that I am done with this post. 

 

My computer has been running like this for 3-4 months already, and it keeps getting better over time (not sure why but it's a fact). CPU temperature is in the low 40's now. 

 

You may also want to keep an eye on the thread below... It's still on, at least for now. 

 

 

[Nenon]

1 hour ago, Peter Avgeris said:

Yes. 

It is active. But first I need to have in my hands the Ram chips to power up the beast! This is what I have been waiting for... 

RAM is coming. I have been waiting 4 months for it, but it's finally here!