Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[bernardl]

At this point, knowing what we know, if budget were not too much of a concern, would there be any reason not to select the Cybershaft OP21A as external clock for the EtherREGEN?

 

- it has the lowest reported noise of any clock

- it has multiple outputs with selectable impedance

- it has a dedicated external linear power supply

- the company has a great reputation

 

Am I missing something?

 

Cheers,

Bernard

 

[RickyV]

43 minutes ago, bernardl said:

At this point, knowing what we know, if budget were not too much of a concern, would there be any reason not to select the Cybershaft OP21A as external clock for the EtherREGEN?

 

- it has the lowest reported noise of any clock

- it has multiple outputs with selectable impedance

- it has a dedicated external linear power supply

- the company has a great reputation

 

Am I missing something?

 

Cheers,

Bernard

 

What is the price? 

[bernardl]

10 minutes ago, RickyV said:

What is the price? 

 

Around 7,000 US$.

 

http://www.cybershaft.jp/a-products/op20a.html

 

Cheers,

Bernard

[LowMidHigh]

1 hour ago, bernardl said:

At this point, knowing what we know, if budget were not too much of a concern, would there be any reason not to select the Cybershaft OP21A as external clock for the EtherREGEN?

 

- it has the lowest reported noise of any clock

- it has multiple outputs with selectable impedance

- it has a dedicated external linear power supply

- the company has a great reputation

 

Am I missing something?

 

Cheers,

Bernard

 

 

Bernard,

 

You'd better do a more thorough research:

- Selectable impedance doesn't yield the correct impedance either way. It's a faulty solution, hands-down.

- It generates a sinuous wave while audio equipment expects a square wave.

 

Perhaps the Cybershaft has the lowest phase noise, but when connected to your equipment, it will suffer from the aforementioned deficiencies. Also bear in mind that both Cybershaft and Mutec swore by -116db is the lower limit for sound improvements to could be perceived. Then marketing took over, and both companies introduced a -120/121db to up the ante. In essence, I suspect, we're in the flat region of the phase noise/SQ curve.

 

I suggest you take a deep breath and study the various offerings again. In my opinion, Mutec Ref10 is the best option, and the SE is the one if you have the have the "Best" 

 

Good luck!

 

 

 

 

[AnAndGate]

2 hours ago, bernardl said:

At this point, knowing what we know, if budget were not too much of a concern, would there be any reason not to select the Cybershaft OP21A as external clock for the EtherREGEN?

 

- it has the lowest reported noise of any clock

- it has multiple outputs with selectable impedance

- it has a dedicated external linear power supply

- the company has a great reputation

 

Am I missing something?

 

Cheers,

Bernard

 

 

At least for me, as someone who has never used an external reference clock, this thread is all about offering an accessible, low cost option to experiment/tweak,  and see if I could discern any benefit of such a set up.

 

Different goals I think. Maybe a gateway drug to Mutec and Cybershaft at some point, we will see!

[bernardl]

1 hour ago, LowMidHigh said:

 

Bernard,

 

You'd better do a more thorough research:

- Selectable impedance doesn't yield the correct impedance either way. It's a faulty solution, hands-down.

- It generates a sinuous wave while audio equipment expects a square wave.

 

Perhaps the Cybershaft has the lowest phase noise, but when connected to your equipment, it will suffer from the aforementioned deficiencies. Also bear in mind that both Cybershaft and Mutec swore by -116db is the lower limit for sound improvements to could be perceived. Then marketing took over, and both companies introduced a -120/121db to up the ante. In essence, I suspect, we're in the flat region of the phase noise/SQ curve.

 

I suggest you take a deep breath and study the various offerings again. In my opinion, Mutec Ref10 is the best option, and the SE is the one if you have the have the "Best" 

 

Thanks.

 

Would you have a reference to a document showing that the Cybershaft clocks emit sinusoidal signals and not square waves? I wasn't able to find such information on their site.

 

Cheers,

Bernard

 

[AnAndGate]

15 minutes ago, bernardl said:

 

Thanks.

 

Would you have a reference to a document showing that the Cybershaft clocks emit sinusoidal signals and not square waves? I wasn't able to find such information on their site.

 

Cheers,

Bernard

 

I think it is implied by the spec of the  OCXO 10MHz clock 4 divider/ distributer... actually it is in the specification section of the  clock as well 

[LowMidHigh]

33 minutes ago, bernardl said:

 

Thanks.

 

Would you have a reference to a document showing that the Cybershaft clocks emit sinusoidal signals and not square waves? I wasn't able to find such information on their site.

 

Cheers,

Bernard

 

 

It used to be on their website, and Kinji wrote to me as much.

 

When I first embarked on my ref clock journey, I gave his products a close look. Going by his own words, the products didn’t cater to the audio market specifically, but to any application that required a high precision clock in an affordable price. He emphasized that point when I inquired about a return policy: “Can't guarantee audio relate performance, so no returns.” As you can deduct from the impedance selectors and impedance convertors, delivering the purest signal isn’t a top priority for him. Furthermore, to my chagrin, he conflicted himself in our exchange too many times to build trust. 

 

Anecdotally, later on, when he realized demand in the audiophile market was building up, he started gearing his clocks accordingly: More outputs, better encasement, and initiating a war-of-tug with Mutec vis-à-vis phase noise. 

 

[bernardl]

30 minutes ago, LowMidHigh said:

 

It used to be on their website, and Kinji wrote to me as much.

 

When I first embarked on my ref clock journey, I gave his products a close look. Going by his own words, the products didn’t cater to the audio market specifically, but to any application that required a high precision clock in an affordable price. He emphasized that point when I inquired about a return policy: “Can't guarantee audio relate performance, so no returns.” As you can deduct from the impedance selectors and impedance convertors, delivering the purest signal isn’t a top priority for him. Furthermore, to my chagrin, he conflicted himself in our exchange too many times to build trust. 

 

Anecdotally, later on, when he realized demand in the audiophile market was building up, he started gearing his clocks accordingly: More outputs, better encasement, and initiating a war-of-tug with Mutec vis-à-vis phase noise. 

 

 

Thanks.

 

Have you ever tried one of his recent high-end clocks vs Mutec?

 

I read recently a comparison performed in HK where the conclusion was clearly in favor of the Cybershaft vs the Mutec Ref10 (or perhaps Ref10 SE120 not sure).

 

Cheers,

Bernard

[LowMidHigh]

1 hour ago, bernardl said:

 

Thanks.

 

Have you ever tried one of his recent high-end clocks vs Mutec?

 

I read recently a comparison performed in HK where the conclusion was clearly in favor of the Cybershaft vs the Mutec Ref10 (or perhaps Ref10 SE120 not sure).

 

Cheers,

Bernar

 

I've seen the synopsis of that A/B.

I take this kind of exercises with a grain of salt. (I don't insinuate insensirty, but I can't rule out expectation bias). And I would certainly not spend $7,000 based on thier opinions, especially since the upgameship of the East has profoundly affected people's outlook nowadays.

(Even if Cybershat had the phase noise edge, its suboptimal selectors and shape of wave would likely render the signal more jittery. John S and another contributer above, with testing equipment, poisted as such).

Personally, since Mutec accepts returns and it hails from the pro industry with several complementary products, I would go with them. Mind you, the 8 ports can become very handy. I'm using 5 and I can see 2 mores put into service in the future. Lastly, presale, I communicate quite extensively with Chris, their CEO, and felt absolutely comfortable with my decision.

[LowMidHigh]

3 hours ago, bernardl said:

 

Thanks.

 

Would you have a reference to a document showing that the Cybershaft clocks emit sinusoidal signals and not square waves? I wasn't able to find such information on their site.

 

Cheers,

Bernard

 

Again, I just want to point out the business practices of Cybershaft, which omits such basic information from their literature. 

[zerung]

2 hours ago, LowMidHigh said:

 

.........especially since the upgameship of the East has profoundly affected people's outlook nowadays.
 

@LowMidHigh  That statement....care to expand your views?

[LowMidHigh]

29 minutes ago, zerung said:

@LowMidHigh  That statement....care to expand your views?

 

This is solely my observation and opinion and reflects no prejudice whatsoever.

 

I reside in Thailand and I run into many people from Chinese, Hong Kong and Taiwan. I also read English issued Chinese publications. There’s a palpable sprit of competition on their behalf, with the aim of superseding anything that is western. Think China 2025. It’s a fascinating and foreboding process that stokes chauvinism and involves politics, big industry, commerce, education and culture perceptions, all which are beyond the scope of our discussion. What’s germane is that oriental consumers—in our case a Hong Kong based forum—are likely to show preference to the Japanese Cybershaft over the German Mutec. 

 

[zerung]

10 minutes ago, LowMidHigh said:

 

This is solely my observation and opinion and reflects no prejudice whatsoever.

 

I reside in Thailand and I run into many people from Chinese, Hong Kong and Taiwan. I also read English issued Chinese publications. There’s a palpable sprit of competition on their behalf, with the aim of superseding anything that is western. Think China 2025. It’s a fascinating and foreboding process that stokes chauvinism and involves politics, big industry, commerce, education and culture perceptions, all which are beyond the scope of our discussion. What’s germane is that oriental consumers—in our case a Hong Kong based forum—are likely to show preference to the Japanese Cybershaft over the German Mutec. 

 

@LowMidHigh Sorry I dont buy this.

You need to be careful with your views.

I live in HK and if anything, there is a strong bias towards European things....(which is definitely changing), if anything else. Which to me is based on an individual preference, driven by analytical analysis of sound (Using the instruments on the sides of ones head) and not necessary objective inference based on a  test data's....

To push the whole of Asia off the map with a swathe of your 'Non Prejudicial' statement is alarming.

[Ponkbutler]

11 minutes ago, zerung said:

@LowMidHigh Sorry I dont buy this.

You need to be careful with your views.

I live in HK and if anything, there is a strong bias towards European things....(which is definitely changing), if anything else. Which to me is based on an individual preference, driven by analytical analysis of sound (Using the instruments on the sides of ones head) and not necessary objective inference based on a  test data's....

To push the whole of Asia off the map with a swathe of your 'Non Prejudicial' statement is alarming.

 

Neither do I, from the UK. Many techies worldwide are into the bigger and better whether or not it has an impact on sound quality or quality of life. It has nothing to do with location, politics or race. It's just sadly human....

[LowMidHigh]

24 minutes ago, zerung said:

@LowMidHigh Sorry I dont buy this.

You need to be careful with your views.

I live in HK and if anything, there is a strong bias towards European things....(which is definitely changing), if anything else. Which to me is based on an individual preference, driven by analytical analysis of sound (Using the instruments on the sides of ones head) and not necessary objective inference based on a  test data's....

To push the whole of Asia off the map with a swathe of your 'Non Prejudicial' statement is alarming.

 

No one has pushed the whole of Asia off the map, and I don't have to be careful with my views, unless promoting violence or hate. 

 

The only interesting tidbit in your rebuttal is this:

"...is a strong bias towards European things....(which is definitely changing),"

The words in bold are actually in agreement with the process I've been witnessing.  Thank you.

[Superdad]

31 minutes ago, LowMidHigh said:

No one has pushed the whole of Asia off the map, and I don't have to be careful with my views, unless promoting violence or hate. 

 

Enough please!  This is my forum area and I won’t permit it to devolve into geopolitical generalization.

 

It is also inappropriate for you or others to defame Cybershaft here. Opinions about their products are fine to express, but to impugn the company or its owner—who is not here to defend—is not something I will allow.

 

Thank you.

[PYP]

6 hours ago, bernardl said:

I read recently a comparison performed in HK where the conclusion was clearly in favor of the Cybershaft vs the Mutec Ref10 (or perhaps Ref10 SE120 not sure).

 

It would be interesting to know where the diminishing returns are in Cybershaft's lineup.  Of course, if you want the best, the OP21A makes sense.  I opted for the low end - the OP13 - and should have it today.  My only need is feeding the eR, so no need for more than one connection.  The cost is about $1,400 (fluctuates with currency exchange, of course).  Only had a few, brief exchanges with Kenji Hasegawa, but it seems clear to me he is serious about providing a good product.  

 

My gear comes from the U.S., Britain and the Netherlands, and they all get along just fine. I expect the Japanese gear will too.   

[bernardl]

Thanks a lot for the feedbacks.

 

I gather from this that Mutec has a great track record in terms of providing studio equipment tuned for audiophile needs and is a safe bet.

 

Cybershaft is a recognized clock expert but is a more recent entrant in the audio high end sector and may need to improve the way they communicate in terms of how the specs of their equipment addresses the perceived needs of high end audio reclocking.

 

Both product lines have fervent fans in terms of real world performance. The only comparison btwn the respective top of the line offers I know of leans in favor of Cybershaft but there are theoretical reasons to believe that the Mutec should be even better.

 

what made me aware of Cybershaft in the first place is a comment from the CEO of Shunyata Research a few weeks ago where he commented that he considers their clocks the best and only use them for all their design and testing activities. I happen to value his opinion.

 

Being based in Japan for more than 20 years and speaking fluent Japanese it’s also a convenient solution but Mutec is imported here also and I could go that way also (although the SE120 isn’t listed yet).

 

cheers,

bernard

[PYP]

1 hour ago, bernardl said:

what made me aware of Cybershaft in the first place is a comment from the CEO of Shunyata Research a few weeks ago where he commented that he considers their clocks the best and only use them for all their design and testing activities. I happen to value his opinion.

 

That is very interesting and quite a testimonial given their testing activities.    

 

My initial impression of the Cybershaft OP-13:  well packed, straightforward and informative manual, very solid build quality, the included test results and certificate are a nice touch.  Clearly, a lot of time and thought has gone into providing a quality product.  

 

I've never used an external clock, so my only comparison will be the eR with its internal clock and live music.  According to the manual, the clock stabilizes over the next month (from what I've read, this is true of all clocks).  I'm intrigued by what the clock might add.  Last night, before adding the Cybershaft, the music was beautiful and I didn't have any desire for an "improvement" to what sounded like an exciting live performance.  

 

The design of the eR made it very simple to connect the clock.  I'm starting to understand first-hand the point Rajiv made in his comprehensive review:  the eR is both an endpoint and a platform which can accommodate an LPS,  external clock, and fiber input.    If you are happy with the eR as is, you are done and have beautiful music.  If you want to experiment, the design allows for that.  👍

[Chrome]

Forgive my ignorance about master clocks, but I hope someone can help me. I am currently using an eR with my dCS Bartok streamer/DAC. The Bartok has a master clock output that is 44.1 kHz. Can I use this output with the eR?

[Superdad]

2 minutes ago, Chrome said:

The Bartok has a master clock output that is 44.1 kHz. Can I use this output with the eR?

 

Hi:

Sorry, but the EtherREGEN accepts only a 10.00MHz clock as an external reference. Will not sync to audio sample-rate related clock frequencies.  So no, you will not be able to utilize the word-clock output of your Bartok with your EtherREGEN.

 

Best,

--Alex C.

[Chrome]

13 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Hi:

Sorry, but the EtherREGEN accepts only a 10.00MHz clock as an external reference. Will not sync to audio sample-rate related clock frequencies.  So no, you will not be able to utilize the word-clock output of your Bartok with your EtherREGEN.

 

Best,

--Alex C.

 

 

Thanks!

[MartinT]

My Canare LV-77S clock cables finally arrived. They are pretty substantial and come with very nice Canare BNC connectors. I slotted them in place of the LV-61S cables. It's early days but right away I can hear even more vibrancy, snap and another layer of low level soundstage.

 

Never mind good acoustic recordings, what it does for well constructed electronic creations like Yello's Flag, a truly wonderful album, has to be heard to be believed. Incredible layering and depth.

 

Who would have thought clock cables could make such a difference?

[PYP]

8 hours ago, MartinT said:

My Canare LV-77S clock cables finally arrived. They are pretty substantial and come with very nice Canare BNC connectors.

 

Who would have thought clock cables could make such a difference?

 

I wonder if for clock cables the connectors are more important than they are for analog ICs, for example.  I'm using the LV-61S while my clock stabilizes (thanks for the recommendation - nice cable, especially for the price).  

 

Your clock seemed to have an immediate impact, which is interesting.  The folks at Cybershaft estimate 30 days for their clock to stabilize fully.  So far (1 week +), the Cybershaft is better than the eR's internal clock, but I've only had a few, temporary instances when I heard what it might be able to do.  If those instances are a taste of what is to come, I'm going to be very, very pleased.  Thanks for starting this thread.  It made me research clocks and, given Alex's recommendation, pick a clock that seems a reasonable investment.