Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[R1200CL]

I have found manufacturers on Alibaba that probably have rectangular versions at a nice price. 
 

I guess there is a limit how much weight that ought to added on top of the clock. 
As an example 3x5x8 cm is 2 kg. 
 

I didn’t measure my clock before powering up. Can anyone supply me with anticipated max height? (From top of clock to surface of cover). 

And length and width of the clock ?

 

Here is a useful tool to calculate. 
https://www.mttm.com/customer-resources/weight-calculator

 

I would like to request  @AfterDark. during his development of new clock to make measurement with and without a tungsten rectangular cube added on top. I will continue that request on his forum. 
 

 

[R1200CL]

55 minutes ago, GMG said:

Tungsten has a natural property of vibration damping, and powder form (of any material) has the additional capability to dampen vibration since it can more efficiently transform vibration to movement and then to heat.

I like the idea of powder. Would small balls be equal you think ?

Im asking cause maybe adding balls to a small bag will achieve required or similar damping. 
This will also more or less give you the opportunity to better cover the whole clock. 

 

I guess powder also can be added to a plastic bag or similar with good results ?

[R1200CL]

4 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Can anyone supply me with anticipated max height? (From top of clock to surface of cover). 

And length and width of the clock ?

I found neasurements online for the Symmetricom 159-00057-000 is 5x5 cm, so that’s require approximately 3 cm hight for a kilo. (2.6 pounds). 
 

I’m in dialog with manufacturer to make a version to this cheap clock. As I don’t know anything about clocks in AfterDark’s clocks I don’t know how well they will fit in there. 
 

I would assume a kilo is more than enough in order to achieve what we’re after. Maybe to much. 

[R1200CL]

On 11/7/2020 at 7:03 PM, MartinT said:

I ordered a 20mm cube of tungsten on eBay and it arrived this morning.  I used 2-part epoxy to tightly bond it to the top of the DAPU OCXO can.  It didn't take long to harden as the clock runs at about 70°C.

This is only 130 gram. So if not more is needed, a 50 mm x 50 mm x 30 may be a total overkill. 15 mm hight is still 600 grams. 

http://www.huazhoucn.com/propic/O55A.pdf

 

 

[R1200CL]

9 minutes ago, sgr said:

So I was hoping to get a similar result by using two EtherREGENs. Perhaps not?

My understanding is that a switch with less phase noise upfront EtherRegen is known to make the EtherRegen even sound better. You can’t get better than two 😀

 

Several has used the Cisco 2960 and others the opticalModule.

 

Fiber is both good for health and SQ 

 

If you search John post, you will find that he has written about how phase noise travel. Maybe there is something in the white paper tread. 

[R1200CL]

@GMG

You should really start to search John Swenson’s posts. 
 

Also we must be clear if we’re using the correct terms. 
Jitter or phase noice. 
https://www5.epsondevice.com/en/information/technical_info/pdf/techl_notes_jitter0416.pdf

https://www.eetimes.com/phase-noise-and-jitter-a-primer-for-digital-designers/#

 

Do you know how to use the advanced search function?

https://audiophilestyle.com/search/?&q=“Jitter” or “phase noise”&author=JohnSwenson&search_and_or=or&sortby=relevancy

[R1200CL]

18 hours ago, sgr said:

I’m using separate linear power supplies for each EtherREGEN and the  Dapu clock. 

 

But you’re only using one clock. With a (copper) cable to each EtherRegen. What does that tell you ?

(And we know the clock outputs isn’t isolated). 

[R1200CL]

8 hours ago, ambre said:

Superdad becomes SuperBad. 

It’s SuperSad 😀

 

Also everyone shouldn’t jump to order this clock, as there is an improvement coming.

Let’s be patient and give Adrian some time to sort things out. 

[R1200CL]

On 1/30/2021 at 4:56 PM, Ponkbutler said:

FWIW my system sounded better with the Cisco removed. Others have found the same thing. It could be system-dependant 

 

On 1/30/2021 at 11:37 PM, Argon said:

I can’t recommend enough an upstream fiber “filter” using either simple tp-link MC modules of make use of the sfp option of the ER.

I do think a Cisco upfront beat a cheap TP-link. However no need to start a huge discussion about this. It’s a $50 test basically. (Either item). 
I think the consensus is a god switch upfront the EtherRegen is highly likely to improve SQ. Also confirmed by the designer himself. (Phase noise can travel IIRC). 
And as usual, every system is different, as is ears, so no big deal. 
 

Those who want to dive further into this will probably get necessary information from the novel trad.

[R1200CL]

48 minutes ago, ambre said:

there is an improvement coming.

You can read my answer in AfterDark’s own forum. I sometimes myself find it useful to read a treads last 10 or so pages a second time. Often I missed or misinterpreted things. Especially since English isn’t my native language. And I admit there’s sometimes good red wine 🍷assisting my posts 🌬

 

Andreas

[R1200CL]

50 minutes ago, Roasty said:

Keces P8

Cost ?

 

Edit found it. 
https://www.kempelektroniksshop.nl/keces-audio-p8-ultra-low-noise-linear-power-supply.html

 

Edit2

Why not go JS-2 then ?

 

Edit3

The principles is every device has its own PS and clock. 
Numerous exceptions may exist. 
Do you already have a Farad or ?

 

Edit4

To be sure I suggest as many LPS 1.2 you can afford ! 😀

[R1200CL]

32 minutes ago, Roasty said:

I just intend to use it to power two clocks (from Aliexpress and AfterDark). I do have farad super 3 (for my other peripherals) but I don't want to spend that amount ie two more super 3 units.. 

 

If your serious about purchasing a Keces, which look very beautiful with that display, I would suggest you do some private emails with Alex first and discuss a JS-2 purchase. 
Also not fully understand your whole system, there may be possibilities to move power supplies around in order to make sure no moat is broken. All this can Alex help you with out in an email exchange. 
 

I have no idea how good the Keyes is, and never heard about it, but those displays etc is adding up to the cost and not the SQ. Also just to bring in another very good PS is the Paul Hynes ones. But I understand you’re after a dual PS output.

 

Further it seems your budget allows for one AfterDark PS plus’s either of the following 

LPS 1.2 (Here is a cheap one). 

Farad

SR4T

That is opening up for more flexibility.  Just saying. 

[R1200CL]

On 1/30/2021 at 9:56 AM, GMG said:

2nd the purpose is not to just add mass on top of the device to add damping by weight alone. 
Tungsten has a natural property of vibration damping

Do you happen to know if there is a difference between a pure tungsten block and a alloy with 10% copper mixed in, considered what we’re after. Will EMI/RFI change ? 

 

I been offered cubes 5x5x2 cm

Pure tungsten is $99

W90Cu10 Is $63

 

Anyone an idea of what to choose ?

Any taught of the price offered ?

 

The pure option weight is around 950 grams 

The W90Cu10 is around 850 grams

 

Is it to heavy ?

This is custom made items, so thickness and weight can be adjusted. 

 

Is anyone interested in testing this (one or both), and maybe compare against tungsten 2 cm cube that some already has tested with success. 

I haven’t asked the manufacturer yet, but I would suppose the ultimate option is to also to create the item as a cover that also cover sides. (Think MuMetal box). There may be ways to do this. Like a separate rectangular pipe glued to the rectangular cube. 

 

[R1200CL]

52 minutes ago, magnuska said:

As many of us in this thread (including myself) already has this inexpensive clock it would be of interest to many to compare with Afterdark clock. But I´m sure it will come eventually. 🙂

Well, by only looking numbers, AfterDark is a better clock. Also I think we don’t know phase noise at 1Hz for the cheap version. I assume John’s announced clock paper will add understanding to how evaluate a clock at least on paper.

I have high expectations for Adrian’s new upcoming clock. 

[R1200CL]

Tungsten cube 5x5 cm between 400 to 500 grams including shipping looks like maximum $60 at the moment. 

[R1200CL]

21 hours ago, James Stephens said:

Hi there did you make a typo? A 5cm cube of tungsten has a mass of 2.3 kg and would also cost a lot more.

 

I'm a granite slab guy myself ..

With ref to post previous page, we’re talking about one cm thick. 

I don’t expect granite to have same effect. If you tried, do you have pictures?

[R1200CL]

@ambre

Which version of AfterDark clock did you buy. 

[R1200CL]

https://www.nelfc.com/email/NEL01201.html
 

I wonder if it’s possible to have a generic PCB design, and just switch clocks mounted on another small PCB ? (As I expect the above example isn’t cheap). 

And if possible: How easy is it to alter between a 50 ohm clock and 75 ohm ?

[R1200CL]

@Superdad once said

Quote

 

As was mentioned, we took an informal poll early on—and also I surveyed the impedance of all the popular, commercially available 10MHz reference clocks—and it was determined that 75 ohm would suit the vast majority. I guess we’ll see how that all shakes out. 

 

I’ve been looking at some OCXO clocks data sheets lately. The all seems to have 50 ohm. 

Maybe @JohnSwenson can answer this:

 

Would it really matter in an clock design, if a native 50 ohm clock is “converted” to an 75 ohm output ?

(or visa versa). 

 

Or would a discussion 50 ohm vs 75 ohm as a audiophile standard for 10 MHz clocks has any meaning at all ?

 

Maybe even 30 ohms is ideal for our purpose, but it would be hard I guess to find suitable connectors and cables.

Or maybe not using a coax at all is ideal, but something else ? I think in the early days some high end companies used a special fiber optics. Could fiber optics be the ultimate solution to and audiophile clock interfaces ? 

https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00714491/document

 

[R1200CL]

1 hour ago, Ponkbutler said:

I think we could speculate endlessly on this when in the end - as audiophile consumers - it's really just a matter of what offers the best compromise or ultimate performance here and now, or what we criteria we set to determine how long to wait before pulling the trigger.

 

FWIW an acquaintance uses a SOtM Master Clock on his ERs (so sine not square wave output) and is very pleased with the result...

Which raises the question if it’s better to convert sine at the receiver end, rather than in the senders end (the clock).

About pulling the trigger for a clock I personally will wait and see how or if new products from Sonore and Uptone has external clock input. 

I think Uptone also has stated there won’t ever be made a clock from them, but who knows, maybe the latest developments of OCXO’s change that, or they make high end versions of their products with better clocks incorporated. 
It seems good clocks is now the area where digital audio can be improved. Still I don’t understand at what cost. And it’s just not cost of the clock itself. New case, new packing, higher shipping weight and size. It all adds up. And in addition higher price may lower the volume. (And profit). 

EDIT 

Found this about OCXO:

Quote

Manufacturers have to spend $500 and up to obtain OCXO clocks with significantly lower phase-noise than the Crystek we use.

 

[R1200CL]

What about the cheapest AfterDark clock instead ?

[R1200CL]

21 hours ago, DarqueKnight said:

I recently ordered an Afterdark Giesemann Triple Output (75 ohm square wave) OCXO with integrated linear power supply.

What version did you purchase ?

How long time from order to receive ?

[R1200CL]

4 hours ago, DarqueKnight said:

After the AliExpress seller confirmed that they could change the square wave output to 75 ohms, for an additional charge of $8 USD, I placed an order for one. I paid an additional $13.98 for AliExpress Premium shipping, with an expected delivery date of March 21, 2021.

Why aren’t you purchasing the same clock as the rest of us ?

 

Here is my shipping time:

 

 

[R1200CL]

6 hours ago, FIndingit said:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/333541364404
 

a premium alternative among the Chinese ocxos. 

I think it’s best to purchase an AfterDark clock, as it’s equal price. And highly likely better quality and support. As well as second hand value. He is also supplying measurements for each clock, and his clocks is new. Not 12 years old. 
 

[R1200CL]

13 minutes ago, FIndingit said:

Their origin remains a trade secret. 

Not so sure you’re correct. He says https://www.oscilloquartz.com/. 
However I’m struggling to find any clocks there.