Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[R1200CL]

@AfterDark.

Is it the same clock in all variants? And if yes, is it possible to explain what makes the difference?

 

[R1200CL]

@AfterDark.

Is it the same clock in all variants? And if yes, is it possible to explain what makes the difference?

Does use of mu metal and similar help on phase noise ?

And sound isolation material ?

 

I noticed you’re using these techniques. Can the effect be measured ?

 

Can pictures of inside be posted ?

 

I think the majority would like a square wave 75 ohm version with only 12V supply. 
Maybe dual clock output.

 

[R1200CL]

Deleted

[R1200CL]

2 hours ago, ambre said:

After several chats with Adrian of Afterdark I like to share their latest ideas and proposals especially for Audiophilestyle members.

This is very interesting what you’re trying to do. I understand the clock is same as being used in the one several of us has already purchased well below $100. 

I would however suggest you could investigate the possibility to somehow involve John in the design. Like a verification or even a suggested design as a joint venture between John’s company and AfterDark.

 

Maybe you can start another tread just for a group buy of this clock.

I think leave power supply (and cable) out at the moment, and only focus on a 12V input version.

And of cause you can’t marketing a switch here 😀

In short, my understanding of this AfterDark clock is just a used $20 to max $40 XCXO mobile tower device added with power supply electronics around a PCB, possible with some very good EMI/RFI properties. 
We need something much better than we can tweak ourselves in the already purchased $100 clock.

 

We also need pictures of the inside. And an understanding of the difference in AfterDark’s various clocks. 

 

 

[R1200CL]

42 minutes ago, ambre said:

That’s a really firm statement hopefully you can underpin this too!! 

Ps The same as Mutec E10 uses costing 36x more😎

I have several times asked what clocks is in use. As well as pictures. So far no info has been given. This is an area of concern. Unless some documentation soon showing up, my statement will be what everyone believes.

So the evidence is not on me. 

[R1200CL]

@Roasty

I think you should request a new clock from HamRadioShop.

Yes, any 75 ohm coax works. But as you probably know, the idea is to keep the cable short.

What I’m wondering, is if aJSSG360 version, is expected to have a positive effect. I know Ghent can make from Belden 4694R upon request. (Or could). 

[R1200CL]

One interesting observation is that the clocks we get from Ham is sine wave that’s converted to square wave. At least that’s my understanding. 
 

So I’m asking myself why he isn’t using pure square wave clocks ?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MORION-OCXO-MV102-10MHz-squarewave-Crystal-Oscillator-12V-EFC/143856696386?hash=item217e86fc42:g:vp8AAOSwkz1eYVRS

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DAPU-O55F-ASDD-10MHz-OCXO-Crystal-Oscillator-12V-EFC/143045716607?epid=28026910829&hash=item214e306a7f:g:a8YAAOSwW4hceKjd
 

Maybe something to ask Ham about. 
(I just tried via eBay). 
 

Maybe data sheet will indicate that sine version is better ?

[R1200CL]

@AfterDark.

Is it possible to have internal pictures of your clock, and some explanations of the variants?

Is it an option for you to offer a pure DC version ?

 

What is your point of view in suppling dual clock outputs ?

[R1200CL]

2 hours ago, MartinT said:

As previously posted, I am using the BG7TBL DAPU OCXO clock for both the ER and Mutec MC-3+ USB. After many trials, I can confirm that it enhances the performance of both. It is a better clock than the internal Mutec one to my ears.

Are you using Mutec MC-3+USB as a USB reclocker or as a USB/SPDIF converter ?

 

Won’t using the clock possible break the moat of the EtherRegen ?

 

[R1200CL]

On 1/22/2021 at 10:15 PM, pietka08 said:

Thank you very much.
So I do not have a power supply for BG7TBL. I think the best option is Farad 12V to BG7TBL, and ER with its power supply. Sorry to litter the subject.

Farad is OK, but you may consider Uptone LPS 1.2 (I’m using serial of LPS 1), or Paul Hynes SR4T. 
These are all more expensive PS than your clock. There is good cheaper options. Like Gophert. 

[R1200CL]

On 1/22/2021 at 9:32 PM, MartinT said:

Yes, I'm aware that I'm potentially breaking the moat via the clock cables. However, it sounds best with both reclockers fed from the master clock.

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/57686-the-etherregen-thread-for-various-network-cable-power-experiences-and-experiments/?do=findComment&comment=1104439

 

On 1/22/2021 at 9:32 PM, MartinT said:

I am feeding the LKS DAC with AES so yes, it's reclocking and USB/SPDIF converting.

I’m also using a converter (Singxer SU1). I’m hoping one of products John is developing is a ethernet to SPDIF converter. Or at least a USB to SPDIF converter. Both with external clock input. 
Also, if a new version of opticalRendu is coming, I would expect it would have external clock input. 
(Or a Rendu with SPDIF AES/EBU out).

 

In any case I see a need for a clock with isolated outputs or several clocks. Minimum 2, possible 3 outputs. Square wave. 
And it may be nice if such a clock could use 7V input, so the LPS 1 can be used.

So I’m waiting to see what products will come, hopefully during 2021, and then maybe upgrade my clock. 
AfterDark’s clocks seems to be best option. I just hope a new version can be made later this year.
 

 

 

 

[R1200CL]

1 hour ago, AfterDark. said:

Last week, we designed and build a 3 outputs model for you. They are all isolated, 10M Master out with Square Wave @75ohm. The linear power supply will be build in for this combo outputs version. 

Sounds great. I hope a 2.1 mm DC plug is added if one like to bypass your build in LPS. However I’m still thinking an pure DC version will save money, or possibly give an option to better clock for the same money. 
 

What can this new clock be compared with in your present available clock options ?

 

[R1200CL]

21 minutes ago, pietka08 said:

There are many Gophert models, will this one be good?

https://audiophilestyle.com/search/?q=Gophert&author=Cornan&updated_after=any&sortby=newest&search_and_or=and

Gophert csp-3205II should be good enough. Use the treads I linked to for more questions. 

[R1200CL]

On 1/14/2021 at 11:43 PM, FIndingit said:

R-core, EI and split bobbin transformers often vibrate, maybe not in the factory, but when imported to 230V countries they do. Toroids less, in my experience. A vibrating transformer in the same chassis next to the clock module would be disastrous. 

Thanks, hence why I like to eliminate internal 220 VAC in a clock. Also good transformers can be expensive, and since digital circuits have special power demands, and more critical than analog circuits, I really like to use me own supply in digital equipment.

 

As an example, JS-2, Paul Hynes SR4T, and LPS-1.2 gives an indication of price range of quality PS needed to be implemented in a clock. This is more or less the only PS I trust in my digital chain. Farad may also be good.

 

@MartinT use of tungsten and isolations is to me a prove that vibration can be an issue even without a transformer inside the clock. 
 

[R1200CL]

On 1/14/2021 at 3:19 AM, AfterDark. said:

For 10M clock, we agreed with Alex that, the good OCXO Clock should be at least above -130dBc at 10Hz & -107dBc at 1Hz

 

The reference point is on -125dBc/Hz @10Hz is about what it takes for a 10Mhz clock to audibly surpass the EtherREGEN's. 

 

The OCXO performance can further tested by phase noise @ 1Hz and Allan Derivation which indicate short-term stability with respect to time (1s) 

 

 

For example, the above Phase Noise graph is measured by Symmetricom 5125A is showing phase noise of the OCXO clock is -140dBc@10Hz / -113dBC@1Hz. 

 

I understand this is the Crown model. Is the measurement done with or without your external LPS ?
 

How will the measurement change if an LPS 1.2 change the result ?

 

Looking at a double Crown, I noticed the phase noise at 1Hz change most. 
How important is this number ?

 

To move from 140 at 10Hz to 145 at top model seems quite expensive. But moving from 113 to 117 in double crown at 1Hz doesn’t drive the price to much, so this is why I’m interested in understanding the importance of these numbers. Top model maxes out at 121. 
 

[R1200CL]

On 1/11/2021 at 12:38 PM, ambre said:

Found also this Masterclock from well known company Paul Pang.

Does somebody tried this in combination with EtherRegen?

 

https://audiopc.shop/en/winkel/accessories/paul-pang-ocxo-10mhz-external-master-clock/
 

Did you contact him to get numbers for measurement and verification of galvanic isolation of outputs ?

(There is a used one for sale in Germany). 

[R1200CL]

42 minutes ago, ambre said:

See earlier post and reply Superbad on specs PP - clock 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/59419-master-clock-for-your-etherregen/?do=findComment&comment=1102343

OK, then that clock isn’t as good as the $92 AliExpress option. 
So no reason to continue finding other clocks to evaluate. Within price range well below HK$ 8000, I think AfterDark is the only option. 
 

Rember it’s only phase noise figures that counts in order to find the best clock. 

We still don’t know which version John has for evaluation. Even John doesn’t know.

@AfterDark. Can you tell us ?

 

 

[R1200CL]

3 hours ago, MartinT said:

Do we know that for sure?

I guess you did click on the link 😀

I find your other question valid, but let’s just be patient and wait for John. 
AfterDark is not designing these PCB on clocks himself. He has help.

In an earlier post I even suggested if he could find a way to use John’s expertise. 
Waiting for a product and also knowing I will pay (included in sale price) royalties to John is what I prefer if possible. I like to know what products is arriving during 2021 before deciding on a clock. 

[R1200CL]

3 hours ago, AfterDark. said:

So, powered with UpTone LPS1.2 or JS-2, it will perform even better. 

Can I hope for a phase noise measurement with LPS 1.2 and your own PS on this new Crown or double Drown version later ? (No need for Allan Deviation). 
 

Since the new clock is square wave, how do you access the sine wave, and at the same time have the clock operating as it will under normal conditions ? 

(I assuming just measure clock without the chassis and various isolation will make the clock not perform optimal).

 

Is the double Crown an option for the new clock, or is those 4 extra dBc at 1Hz not worth the cost and effort ?

 

https://blog.bliley.com/the-double-oven-controlled-crystal-oscillator-when-to-use-it

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_variance

 

[R1200CL]

@AfterDark.

Do you like us to create a new tread discussing your clocks ?

Especially the new version developed and a possible group buy. 

 

[R1200CL]

2 hours ago, PYP said:

I hesitate to respond since Alex has asked to keep this about the benefits of clocks in general vs. a particular clock,

When looking at the numbers, there’s isn’t any clock coming close the numbers (obtained phase noise vs price) compared to what AfterDark is producing. 

 

That’s a fact !!!

 

The AliExpress one is a good option, since the price is only $90.

Maybe it’s good enough. Maybe there is a upper limit of phase noise number required to keep most of us happy. (Like the sample rate discussion). 

@Avalfa

I also remember something similar as you. I don’t own a JS-2, but several LPS 1 and LPS 1.2.

The advanced search function should help you finding several posts about this.

 

I expect several new products will have the option of an external clock input. I also need to plan correctly for further upgrades. Things can start to be complex. A good clock may be the best way to upgrade your digital chain in the future. 
 

When thinking about all efforts John and Alex has done in order to create moat and isolation, I also would like to have some sort of confirmation that a three output square wave clock actually is a totally isolated device. 

Also seeing how reluctant AfterDark is to discuss technical details like how to measure the sine wave from a square wave clock, doesn’t make me comfortable. (I write this in a hope he can communicate more openly. He has a good product. So no need to keep potential customers in the dark). 

 

Why should a clock isolation be simpler to make, compared to technology used in the EtherRegen. 
How can it be measured and trusted. 
 

Maybe it’s safer to use several clocks with a good PS ?

I hope not, it’s getting to expensive.

[R1200CL]

33 minutes ago, AfterDark. said:

That is good idea.

@MartinT Maybe you can write a nice opening post for a new tread. Or you  @ambre ?

Summarize from various post and knowledge collected in this tread. 

[R1200CL]

@sgr

You could make a sketch 😀

[R1200CL]

@AfterDark.

Maybe you should start the first tread in your new area/forum. Start to introduce yourself, product range and maybe also treads related to specific products. We will probably be most interest in your own clocks (not so much other manufacturers). A separate (clock) cable tread, as I’m sure that will be an issue. As well your PS. 

[R1200CL]

1 hour ago, GMG said:

if I get the Tax sorted out to my favor the total cost for 1 foot will be $175, and the weight of each will be 1.2KG 😃

 

Why not put a cube of one kg diving lead on top ? Will cost you less than 1/10 of that price.