Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

@MartinT Maybe you can write a nice opening post for a new tread. Or you  @ambre ?

Summarize from various post and knowledge collected in this tread. 

Please tag me in the new thread. Thanks guys. 

[AfterDark.]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Hi Adrian:

You do not have to pay any subscription fees in order to create a new topic on Audiophile Style.  It is a pubic forum.

 

However:

 

a) You are not permitted to make promotional posts about your products--unless you pay $3K/year to establish an entire Sponsored Forum area. Such would be at equal level to this UpTone Audio sponsored forum area.

 

b) If you do wish to make a modest post--or reply with answers to questions in a new thread about AfterDark clocks that someone else might start--you can do so. But I request that such a topic start in a forum other than the UpTone sponsored area. That way there is no appearance of conflict or about my allowing or not allowing you to promote--and I do not have to be moderator.  Audiophile Style site owner @The Computer Audiophile would the be the only moderator of what you can post in such a thread.

 

Thank you for understanding.

--Alex C.

 

Hi! Alex,

 

Thanks for your information. We are establishing a Sponsored Forum with Chris now. 

[MartinT]

7 hours ago, R1200CL said:

@MartinT Maybe you can write a nice opening post for a new tread. Or you  @ambre ?

Summarize from various post and knowledge collected in this tread. 

 

I will leave this to @AfterDark. to do as it will be their sponsored area and I do not have one of their products.

[sgr]

Grounding Questions
 

I’m using two EtherREGENs, the clock this thread is all about, a JS2, a LPS 1.2, and 2 SFPs in each EtherREGEN. 
 

The Ethernet Chain looks like this. 
 

Server > BlueJeans CAT 6 >  ER1B 
via 1.5 ft. single mode fiber connects the ER1 SFP to ER2 SFP. 
 

ER2B > Revelation Audio CAT > Aries G2. 
 

Clock Chain

The Clock > Apogee Wyde Eye cable ER1 Clock input. 
The Clock > JSSG cable > ER2 Clock input. 
 

 

Power Chain

JS 2 > LT 3045 Module > ER 1

JS2 >  Clock

 

LPS 1.2 > ER 1

 

Ground

ER2 is grounded to outlet. 

 

Have I still isolated the grounds in this way? No compromises to grounds? What could I do to improve this? 
 

This set up sounds out standing. 

 

 

[R1200CL]

@sgr

You could make a sketch 😀

[soares]

7 hours ago, R1200CL said:

@sgr

You could make a sketch 😀

About sketches (and I am sorry Alex for this post) could someone kindly indicate a suitable program to ilustra-te my setup? Tks

Jorge

[MartinT]

I use PowerPoint, which has easy tools to use.

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Guys, you can now move the @AfterDark. conversation to the new AfterDark sponsored forum!

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/forum/133-afterdark-sponsored/

 

[R1200CL]

@AfterDark.

Maybe you should start the first tread in your new area/forum. Start to introduce yourself, product range and maybe also treads related to specific products. We will probably be most interest in your own clocks (not so much other manufacturers). A separate (clock) cable tread, as I’m sure that will be an issue. As well your PS. 

[JohnSwenson]

On 1/26/2021 at 10:55 AM, sgr said:

Grounding Questions
 

I’m using two EtherREGENs, the clock this thread is all about, a JS2, a LPS 1.2, and 2 SFPs in each EtherREGEN. 
 

The Ethernet Chain looks like this. 
 

Server > BlueJeans CAT 6 >  ER1B 
via 1.5 ft. single mode fiber connects the ER1 SFP to ER2 SFP. 
 

ER2B > Revelation Audio CAT > Aries G2. 
 

Clock Chain

The Clock > Apogee Wyde Eye cable ER1 Clock input. 
The Clock > JSSG cable > ER2 Clock input. 
 

 

Power Chain

JS 2 > LT 3045 Module > ER 1

JS2 >  Clock

 

LPS 1.2 > ER 1

 

Ground

ER2 is grounded to outlet. 

 

Have I still isolated the grounds in this way? No compromises to grounds? What could I do to improve this? 
 

This set up sounds out standing. 

 

 

You ARE shorting the moat of both ERs. You have a direct leakage current path to the DAC with this configuration.

 

First off the two outputs of a JS-2 share the same ground. The power input goes to the A side of an ER. The clock connection is on the B side. Thus powering the clock box from the same JS2 shorts the moat on the first ER.

 

All the outputs on that clock box are connected to the same ground, so by using the same box for both ERs you are shorting the moat on ER2.

 

The easiest way to get around this is to just buy a second clock box so each is connected to its own clock box. But in order to work that needs an isolated separate supply for the new clock box. you cannot use the same supply as powering ER2, UNLESS that supply has fully isolated outputs. You could us an LPS-1.2 powered from the 12V out of the JS-2, that will isolate the new clock box.

 

That still will leave the moat of ER1 shorted, but at least the moat of ER2 will still be isolated.

 

John S.

[PYP]

5 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

You ARE shorting the moat of both ERs. You have a direct leakage current path to the DAC with this configuration.

 

First off the two outputs of a JS-2 share the same ground. The power input goes to the A side of an ER. The clock connection is on the B side. Thus powering the clock box from the same JS2 shorts the moat on the first ER.

 

 

My current configuration is a JS-2 powering an eR and an external clock, so it seems I am defeating the moat (if I understand you correctly).  That isn't what my ears are telling me though, which is puzzling.  The following are the additions to my basic system.  Since I was aware of the JS-2's shared ground, I tried variations to see which sounded best.  

 

Each addition below resulted in progressively improved sound:

 

1.  Add eR, using the stock SMPS.  

2.  Power eR with JS-2.

3.  Add OpticalModule, powered by SMPS.

4.  Power eR and oM with JS-2.

5.  Power eR with JS-2 and power oM with separate LPS.

6.  Add external clock to eR.  Power eR with JS-2 and power clock with SMPS.

7.  Power both eR and clock with JS-2.  

 

 

 

[JohnSwenson]

This why there is no hard and fast rule. One of the primary reasons for the moat is to stop leakage current from SMPS powering network equipment form getting to endpoint and or DAC. Yes you have shorted the moat by using the same JS-2 to power the ER and clock, BUT you have blocked the network leakage by using the optical interface to the ER. So in this case shorting the moat is not that big of a deal. The galvanic isolation does have a small impact on the clock phase noise isolation, so un-shorting the moat might give a small improvement.

 

John S.

[GMG]

On 1/27/2021 at 8:38 AM, MartinT said:

I use PowerPoint, which has easy tools to use.

 

 

Nice sketch and impressive power management!

 

I see you have ground connection from all front end boxes, some seem to be signal ground and some are chassis/safety. Where do they all connect to?

Also, why did you chose to feed ER with sine and Mutec with square? I thought ER prefers square and Mutec sine.

[GMG]

27 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

This why there is no hard and fast rule. One of the primary reasons for the moat is to stop leakage current from SMPS powering network equipment form getting to endpoint and or DAC. Yes you have shorted the moat by using the same JS-2 to power the ER and clock, BUT you have blocked the network leakage by using the optical interface to the ER. So in this case shorting the moat is not that big of a deal. The galvanic isolation does have a small impact on the clock phase noise isolation, so un-shorting the moat might give a small improvement.

 

John S.

Hi John,
Given the fiber on A side (no leakage from upstream) and since the clock goes into the B side why does it matter if the clock is fed from the same power supply as the ER or an identical but separate power supply? any leakage from such a power supply feeding the clock would reach the B side over the clock BNC cable in both cases no? So as long as the power supplies (double, or 2 singles) are of high quality (low leakage) isn't the result the same? 

 

Or, did you mean that the clock phase noise travels on the shared power rail and therefore reaches the ER B side (and then the DAC)? does that mean the clock phase noise doesn't travel on the clock cable and using sperate power supplies prevents this phase noise from reaching the ER?

 

Lastly - would it make sense to design the clock input (and GND terminal) to be on the A side of the ER and pass the signal internally over the moat to the B side, therefore keeping the B side purely for output, preventing any potential moat breaching?

 

Hope I didn't make a mess out of your explanation :-) 

[MartinT]

2 hours ago, GMG said:

 

Nice sketch and impressive power management!

 

I see you have ground connection from all front end boxes, some seem to be signal ground and some are chassis/safety. Where do they all connect to?

Also, why did you chose to feed ER with sine and Mutec with square? I thought ER prefers square and Mutec sine.

 

Thanks!

 

All of those front end ground connections are to individual grounding boxes - Black Ravioli Eflos or SGS, connected to signal ground planes.  They are independent and not connected together.

 

My OCXO has one square and two sinewave outputs.  I did first of all give the ER square and Mutec sine, then I swapped them around and preferred it that way.  Listening impressions always win!  I suspect the Mutec, being closer to the DAC, needs the best possible clock signal as it does power and DC cable.

[PYP]

6 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

This why there is no hard and fast rule. One of the primary reasons for the moat is to stop leakage current from SMPS powering network equipment form getting to endpoint and or DAC. Yes you have shorted the moat by using the same JS-2 to power the ER and clock, BUT you have blocked the network leakage by using the optical interface to the ER. So in this case shorting the moat is not that big of a deal. The galvanic isolation does have a small impact on the clock phase noise isolation, so un-shorting the moat might give a small improvement.

 

John S.

Thank you, John.  Finally realized I forgot what I assume is an essential fact:  The external clock's ground is floated.  I assume a floated ground would "fix" the moat shorting.  (The clock's ground/float switch provides the ability to experiment.  When I received the clock, the switch was in the floated position and it sounded so good I left it there. Completely forgot about it).

 

I'm not sure if the eR + Om + JS-2 should be called the John S. trifecta or triple play, but this is a powerful combination of three of your designs!

 

Thanks for your time.  Know you are working on creating other incredible gear.  

[sgr]

On 1/27/2021 at 6:05 PM, JohnSwenson said:

You ARE shorting the moat of both ERs. You have a direct leakage current path to the DAC with this configuration.

 

First off the two outputs of a JS-2 share the same ground. The power input goes to the A side of an ER. The clock connection is on the B side. Thus powering the clock box from the same JS2 shorts the moat on the first ER.

 

All the outputs on that clock box are connected to the same ground, so by using the same box for both ERs you are shorting the moat on ER2.

 

The easiest way to get around this is to just buy a second clock box so each is connected to its own clock box. But in order to work that needs an isolated separate supply for the new clock box. you cannot use the same supply as powering ER2, UNLESS that supply has fully isolated outputs. You could us an LPS-1.2 powered from the 12V out of the JS-2, that will isolate the new clock box.

 

That still will leave the moat of ER1 shorted, but at least the moat of ER2 will still be isolated.

 

John S.

Thanks. 
If I use a LPS 1.2 for for the clock and just use one output from the clock to one EtherREGEN that fixes that. Can I use the JS 2 to power both EtherREGENs? 
 

Is it ok to use fiber and SFPs to connect the two EtherREGENs? A to A. 

 

Then it would be Server> EtherREGEN 1B. 

 

Then EtherREGEN 2B > into the DAC?

[JohnSwenson]

1 hour ago, sgr said:

Thanks. 
If I use a LPS 1.2 for for the clock and just use one output from the clock to one EtherREGEN that fixes that. Can I use the JS 2 to power both EtherREGENs? 
 

Is it ok to use fiber and SFPs to connect the two EtherREGENs? A to A. 

 

Then it would be Server> EtherREGEN 1B. 

 

Then EtherREGEN 2B > into the DAC?

Yes you can do that. But by using the same JS-2 for both ERs you ARE shorting the fiber, you don't get any isolation advantage from the fiber. You DO still have the full isolation from both ERs.

 

So whether to go fiber or Ethernet cable depends on which you think sounds better. In THIS case even using a cable that shorts the shields won't make any difference because you already have the A to A shorted by the JS-2. You certainly can use the fiber, it just depends on what you like the best.

 

John S.

[sgr]

6 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

Yes you can do that. But by using the same JS-2 for both ERs you ARE shorting the fiber, you don't get any isolation advantage from the fiber. You DO still have the full isolation from both ERs.

 

So whether to go fiber or Ethernet cable depends on which you think sounds better. In THIS case even using a cable that shorts the shields won't make any difference because you already have the A to A shorted by the JS-2. You certainly can use the fiber, it just depends on what you like the best.

 

John S.

What a shame that the js-2 outputs are not electrically isolated from each other. I’m sure when it was designed there was no need as lots of this stuff was unknown. 

 

I think the js2 sounds better than the lps1.2 with the clock or the EtherREGEN. It seems a shame to waste an output. 
 

Drat. I guess I’ll connect the js-2 to the clock and use two LpS 1.2s  one for each EtherREGEN. 
 

Thanks for your trouble shooting. 
 

 

[sgr]

22 minutes ago, sgr said:

What a shame that the js-2 outputs are not electrically isolated from each other. I’m sure when it was designed there was no need as lots of this stuff was unknown. 

 

I think the js2 sounds better than the lps1.2 with the clock or the EtherREGEN. It seems a shame to waste an output. 
 

Drat. I guess I’ll connect the js-2 to the clock and use two LpS 1.2s  one for each EtherREGEN. 
 

Thanks for your trouble shooting. 
 

 

Can I use the second JS2 output to power a LPS 1.2?

The other JS 2 output is powering the clock. 

Is it ok to still use the fiber connection via SFPs between the two EtherREGENs or does it compromise the ground/isolation as well? 
 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ricardo007]

On 1/16/2021 at 11:05 PM, GMG said:

Since suggesting the tungsten cube was such a success it gave me another idea

Glad to share another tungsten DIY

This time went for isolation feet filled with Tungsten powder. 

pretty much cheaper than these ones:

https://www.analogueseduction.net/isolation/tungsten-grooves-d70-h33-vibration-isolation-feet.html

1400 euros each feet

[GMG]

11 minutes ago, Ricardo007 said:

pretty much cheaper than these ones:

https://www.analogueseduction.net/isolation/tungsten-grooves-d70-h33-vibration-isolation-feet.html

1400 euros each feet

Yes, exactly. 
 

since the ones I made from cutting up steel pipe was a bit rough on the edges, I sourced for custom sized (5.7cm diameter, 2.5cm height) Tungsten crucibles from China and will fill those with Tungsten powder. Seel them off with sorbothane disks, top and bottom. 
 

I am going to make 6 feet. 
if I get the Tax sorted out to my favor the total cost for 1 foot will be $175, and the weight of each will be 1.2KG 😃

[Ricardo007]

On 1/28/2021 at 1:05 AM, JohnSwenson said:

The easiest way to get around this is to just buy a second clock box so each is connected to its own clock box. 

@JohnSwenson

The MUTEC Ref10 has galvanic isolation between each clock output (at least SE model)

so I guess this comment does not apply for that case ???

[JohnSwenson]

5 hours ago, sgr said:

What a shame that the js-2 outputs are not electrically isolated from each other. I’m sure when it was designed there was no need as lots of this stuff was unknown. 

 

I think the js2 sounds better than the lps1.2 with the clock or the EtherREGEN. It seems a shame to waste an output. 
 

Drat. I guess I’ll connect the js-2 to the clock and use two LpS 1.2s  one for each EtherREGEN. 
 

Thanks for your trouble shooting. 
 

 

The only way to isolate the outputs is to have two completely separate set of components. The transformer, two big chokes, two sets of the large capacitors. You would be putting two sets of JS-2 guts into one much bigger box. It wouldn't save anything.

 

John S.

[JohnSwenson]

3 hours ago, sgr said:

Can I use the second JS2 output to power a LPS 1.2?

The other JS 2 output is powering the clock. 

Is it ok to still use the fiber connection via SFPs between the two EtherREGENs or does it compromise the ground/isolation as well? 
 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes you certainly can use one output of the JS-2 to power an LPS-1.2, that does provide isolation from the other JS-2 output. It works very well.

 

Using the fiber connection between the two A sides works fine and by itself does not compromise isolation, but it doesn't ADD isolation in your situation because the power connections are already connecting the two A sides together.

 

John S.