Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[R1200CL]

@lxgreen

But you shipped everything back already without an accept from Adrian ?

[R1200CL]

On 8/5/2021 at 3:19 PM, AfterDark. said:

We have planned to purchase another Mutec MC3 (with or without USB) to cascade with the existing Mutec MC-3+USB. Both unit will be moded, the connection will be AES output (First Mutec MC-3+USB) then 2nd unit will connected to AES Input, both units optimise with 10M Master Clock. Then final AES output will connect to DAC. This should improve like addeding a reclock device, we expected music will be more refined. 

Adrian

 

It would be interesting to know how an SU-2 upfront the Mutec will do. As you probably know, the SU-2 has an external 50 ohm 10 MHz clock input. Perfect for your product line 😀. 
The SU-2 is also more reasonable priced and have already a LPS inside. 
 

I find my SU-2 with your King quite good. 
 

Maybe my next upgrade is a Mutec or a better clock. I’m investigating. 

[R1200CL]

On 7/21/2021 at 11:01 PM, jean-michel6 said:

Have you ever used a clock signal splitter to clock two devices with only one master clock .

 

On 7/22/2021 at 8:56 AM, AfterDark. said:

We tested the adaptor, this is only for 10M Master Reference Clock at Imedance matching with 50ohms signals.

 

It is really important to match the Imedance for all connectors and cables. So we found the adpator can degrade the sounding if the 10M Master Clock signal is on 75ohms instead of 50ohms. We suggested MartinT not to use it. So his 2 clocks system is way better when there is the ER moat issue. 

I’m using this Cybershaft splitter. 
In the beginning it was problematic, as I also added the Mini Circuits 50 ohm filters. Got dropouts. 
Now it’s been working fine for long time. 
 

The splitter is 50 ohm. So is clock and the SU-2. Not my EtherRegen. I don’t think I tried only applying the filter on EtherRegen in this scenario. 

 

I think the splitter is a possible reasonable way to achieve clocking on two devices. (Can’t remember price now). 
 

@MartinT

I understand you’re using two clocks now. Can the Mutec output 10 MHz? How are you using the Mutec ?

Do you happen to know Mutec’s phase noise numbers?

 

As you see from schematics below, my use of splitter is highly likely to break some isolation. However it may not be a huge issue, since Uptone’s isolating power is in use everywhere possible.

 

I would like to hear your and others opinions of how I could refine and upgrade my digital chain any further. 
It’s obvious a better clock will do. But maybe reclock my AES/EBU using Mutec is something to consider. 
 

What isn’t obvious is if a second King will help in present configuration. (Only purpose is to remove the splitter, and better isolation, I think). Adrian has finally confirmed he has the King in stock. 

@Iving

Your previous answer is interesting. Dual AES/EBU reclocking using the Mutec. I guess the Mutec is the only AES/EBU reclocker available with external 10Mhz input, anyone know ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[R1200CL]

@MartinT

Thanks for replying. How is the Mutec implemented in your chain ?

 

Hi @Iving

Thank you for long answer. I need some time to think and understand everything 😀

 

[R1200CL]

59 minutes ago, Iving said:

I read somewhere, sometime that women judge men by their shoes. Does that help?

He, he, you (or the female reading this tread) should see my blue shoes. Bought in Paris many ears ago. Used twice 😂

 

1 hour ago, Iving said:

imo the AD Triple is good value

You do understand this is also braking any moat ?

 

1 hour ago, Iving said:

Eventually I'm probably heading towards a second Mutec - mainly to double re-clock

Thanks. Ya, I will remembering the shoe metaphor. (And let’s not start a tread about women and shoes). 

[R1200CL]

I’m planning to verify my clocks. I don’t have access a Symmetricom 5125A. I know the Symmetricom 5125A can be rented. Not an option for me. 
 

My question to the community is if the HP4395A is sufficient ?

https://www.digchip.com/datasheets/download_datasheet.php?id=2844459&part-number=4395A

 

I also have access to HP3563A and HP4195A, but I think the HP / Agilent 4395A is my best option.

 

 

 

[R1200CL]

40 minutes ago, Oggo said:

Before I daisy-chained 2 ER, I had tested the  BG7TBL on 1 ER - SQ was degraded too. Seems as if the chinese clock cannot improve SQ of ER...

The quality of the BG7TBL is a lottery. 
 

We’re paying Adrian for an exercise to select the best among many cheap similar clocks. (And adding the case etc.). 
 

[R1200CL]

16 hours ago, sakso136 said:

I was thinking to go with AD clock the EDC with 3 output to clock su1 and ER.

Your SU1 doesn’t have 10 MHz clock input. The SU2 has. It’s a good upgrade. Especially with a King AfterDark clock. Mutec (the USB / SPDIF converter) may be an option at twice the price. 
 

I recommend you not to purchase the AfterDark 3 output clock. And no square wave clock from him. Only sine wave. Then it’s better with 2 clocks, or even start with a splitter. I’m using splitter.

Have Adrian give you the phase noise numbers upfront for the King.

 

Also, I think the way you have powered things, you may break the moat of the EtherRegen. 
In general EtherRegen should not share power with items further upstream in the chain towards the DAC if it’s in a A>B configuration. 

The SU2 and AfterDark King both have 50 ohm, which is good. So does the splitter Adrian sells.

 

The top one clock you linked to has horrible phase noise numbers. 
1Hz ≤-70 dBc/Hz
10Hz ≤-87 dBc/Hz

The most expensive Mutec in same price range is way better. 

 

[R1200CL]

59 minutes ago, sakso136 said:

By the way does that mean i can clock another device by the su1???

Yes, but NOT the EtherRegen. Word clock is different. And it’s not 10mhz. Also I have no idea of the quality of that output. Where would you like to use it and why ?
 

59 minutes ago, sakso136 said:

so i should start with AD king 50 ohm ,splitter,2 bnc cables and clock both ER and the su2

Yes, that’s what I’m doing. I don’t think EtherRegen is 75 ohm is an issue. 
You highly likely to break the moat this way. But it may not be an issue. Use of LPS 1.2 isolating power, may reduce the risk. 
 

59 minutes ago, sakso136 said:

then may be add another AD king further the route?

Yes, that’s what I’m considering. But since I’m using the EtherRegen in a B>A configuration, I’m not sure how much effect the clock has in my case. 
 

Also, don’t forget a modified AfterDark  Mutec as an more expensive alternative to the SU2. I have no idea if it is a better USB/SPDIF converter.

The SU2 is on sale this week. 
https://shenzhenaudio.com/products/singxer-su-2-dsd1024-usb-digital-interface-femtosecond-clock-interface

 

[R1200CL]

Just like to add that isolation of items may better be discussed in the isolation tread. 
 

In my opinion such things need supported drawings, in order understand if the moat of EtherRegen is broken or not. I’m not even 100% sure I’m doing it myself 😀

[R1200CL]

23 minutes ago, richard_crl032 said:

Please advise how you are using the splitter from single AD clock to ensure not breaking the moat as well as the 50ohm and 75ohm mismatch if you are not only custom 50ohm ER.

 

It can be discussed if I’m braking the moat or not. Hopefully not as I’m using both fiber and isolating power supplies from Uptone. 
 

The EtherRegen is 75 ohm. Clock, splitter and SU-2 is 50 ohm. I’m not using the Mini Circuits adapter. I think I had some problems when using it. This impedance miss match isn’t a issue I think. 
 

I hope you did order the 50 ohm EtherRegen then ?

[R1200CL]

5 hours ago, FIndingit said:

Looks like you believe dac is the least important link in the chain. 😁

Since you brought it up, what would your preferred DAC be ? Assuming price is from $1500 (same as the GUSTARD X26 PRO) to $2500

 

 

[R1200CL]

8 hours ago, aubreybobb said:

4) One ER is A->B, but second B->A. 

Which one has an external clock ? And is the clock used anywhere else ?

 

Are you doing A>B>B>A og B>A>A>B ?

[R1200CL]

1 hour ago, Rasputin said:

Does this mean the power supply circuits should be different before and after ER moat?

The circuits (PCB)can be equal on all power supplies You just need enough power supplies 😉

But the power supplies can share the same circuit breaker, if that’s what you’re asking. 

 

1 hour ago, Rasputin said:

the network devices can be powered from the same power distributor sharing the ground? 

Your house has same ground plane all over. Hopefully. So yes, the power supplies itself can and ought to have same ground plane. Preferably from same circuit breaker. You shouldn’t ground or connect devices together. Especially if the devices is on different side of the moat. 

 

Which is interesting if you ground dual EtherRegen in a A>B>A>B together 🤪(Don’t). 
 

If this theme isn’t clear to you, please draw an example.

[R1200CL]

10 hours ago, Rasputin said:

Thanks, clear now;) I might try to float the ground for regen and the streamer that is connected to the dac optically and let the rest of the system be grounded, would it be theoretically better? 

Can you draw a simple sketch ?

What is the Farad powering ?

Please also read the user guide for EtherRegen regarding the ground screw if that’s what you’re asking. 
What is your streamer and how is it powered ? And how is your BG7TBL powered ?

 

How shall we understand that the ground is floating for the EtherRegen? (In your case). 

[R1200CL]

1 hour ago, aubreybobb said:

to high end ones

Which ones ?

[R1200CL]

2 hours ago, aubreybobb said:

Using Dueland 99.999 silver

The only Duelund silver i can find on internet is flat ones. Except this one:

https://jimsaudio.com/duelund-dca-ac0-4-0-4mm-bulk-silver-wire-sell-at-per-meter/

https://duelundaudio.com/cable/

https://www.aurealisaudio.com.au/digital-cables/
 

I guess you use 75 ohm BNC plugs ?

 

[R1200CL]

On 12/10/2021 at 9:29 AM, lyndonlim said:

Any alternatives or do you think $75 for the 25mm2 is worthwhile? 

 

[R1200CL]

36 minutes ago, Oggo said:

Will it brake the moat, if connect a second output of the BG7TBL to the second ER?

(I assume you men first EtherRegen).
You will probably break the last EtherRegen moat, as you “short” the moat from first EtherRegen B side to the second EtherRegen B side. But if that matters is another question. 
 

36 minutes ago, Oggo said:

If yes, would there be any kind of difference, if I would run a>b>b>a?

Yes, cause both B sides is on same “domain”, so there isn’t any moat to break. 

However my experience is that reverse the EtherRegen isn’t a good solution, as the moat degrades the phase noise. 

[R1200CL]

50 minutes ago, Oggo said:

How would you go (abab, abba)? Separate clocks for both ERs? Stay with internal clocks?

Not knowing your endpoint, I would do ABAB, and probably only external clock last EtherRegen. 
 

So far I haven’t seen anyone posting about clocking each EtherRegen with separate clocks. But of cause, one can do, but it’s starting to get expensive. I suggest you purchase one AfterDark King 50 ohm, for your second EtherRegen. And have him add one of his stiff 50 ohm clock cables. 
 

Experiment with the BG7TBL on the first one. 

[R1200CL]

20 minutes ago, sakso136 said:

Am i braking the moat?

No, cause the EtherRegen isn’t sharing its PS with anything and you’re also doing A>B, and you’re not using an external clock. 

 

Why don’t you use the EtherRegen at your endpoint ?

[R1200CL]

2 hours ago, sakso136 said:

Thks alot!

I also have su1 feeding my dac wich i m planning to replace by su2 and planning also to buy a clock to feed both ER and su2.. is it going to brake the moat ,and is it a good idea?

The SU-2 is nice. I have it myself with external clocking. 
 

The SU-2 has its own LPS. So there won’t be any loops going that way. 

Are you planning to use a 50 ohm splitter? And an AfterDark clock. 
 

This is what I’m doing.

 

But I don’t understand your network, cause presently your EtherRegen is going to a server and not an endpoint. So where is the SU-2 going to be ? Are you purchasing a second EtherRegen ? Or you have two already?

Buy 50 option, as both SU-2 and the Cybershaft splitter is 50 ohm. 
 

Yes, in theory you will wave some sort of possible unwanted loop via Y-splitted clock cable, but it may not be an issue at all. 

[R1200CL]

38 minutes ago, sakso136 said:

AD emperor 3 output.

This clock doesn’t have isolated outputs, no matter what Adrian would claim. 

[R1200CL]

3 hours ago, sakso136 said:

My network:

Edge router x then via copper( in wall) --- wall ethernet ---- vodka aq ------OM powered by ifi 5 v -------fiber------ ER SIDE A------ sablon copper----server----- usb---- su1----coax---- dac 

My plan is su2 instead of su1 in order to receive clock input.

Clock choice between ref10 or AD emperor 3 output.

So either clock will feed seperately ER nd su2 

; )

I like to suggest to you adding a endpoint with the EtherRegen before it. Try to isolate the server from the DAC. 
 

A external clock will lift the SQ on the SU-2. 
 

If you like to add a clock as suggested, I think you must have the Ref10 with isolated outputs. Or two AfterDark clocks. 

[R1200CL]

1 hour ago, sakso136 said:

usb xe

https://jcat.eu/product/usb-card-xe/
 

OK, that’s definitely not a normal computer motherboard USB 😀

 

I have no idea how good this card would be compared with a high quality endpoint like the rendu’s.

Maybe there is some indications in the Novel thread.