Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[MasterWarzombie]

On 3/5/2021 at 3:40 PM, PYP said:

just one opinion:  since everything sounds great, and to keep it simple, use the W4s to power the clock and don't change the orientation of the eR or how you use the JS2.  Then let everything settle in for a month before trying any other configuration (we may not want to by then .  Remember that the clock needs to be connected and powered on, before you power the eR, so the steps are:  

 

1.  disconnect the JS2 power cord to the eR 

2.  slide the switch on the eR that indicates you now have an external clock

3.  connect clock to the eR with clock cable (push in and then twist the metal connector to lock into place.  sometimes it is easier to do the clock side first before it is placed in your rack, just be careful not to stress the cord)

4.  power up the clock 

5.  check that any LEDs on the clock that indicate it is now working

6.  reconnect the JS2 cord to the eR

 

enjoy!

 

My clock too 1 month to completely stabilize.  AfterDark has most likely told you how long its clock will take.  In the meantime, you will most likely already have better sound than before.  Everything smooths out over the month and then blossoms.  Fun stuff!

 

 

5.  check that any LEDs on the clock that indicate it is now working ?????????????

 

on the Afterdark clock, there is no light indicating its operation.

[MasterWarzombie]

5 hours ago, LowMidHigh said:

 

Sorry, but you should do more research. The MC3+USB data sheet explicitly states 75ohm for its clock input BNC. 

 

John S. discusses in one thread the difference between the 2 wave shapes at length, expressing the superiority of the square one. For that reason, I suppose, both the MC3+USB and the ER expect square input. 

 

Theoretically, you should match both impedences and wave shapes between the master and the slave. Feel free to do A/B or A/Bx in your copious free time. Would appreciate your report. 

Your words reassure me a little because I made the choice of newbie to buy the AfterDark Queen Square Wave clock in 75 ohm to match with my ER 75 ohm even if I am well aware that it is a cheap clock in comparison with some higher end models. I had an eye on the Sotm solution but the price was disproportionate for the moment with my first experience.

[MasterWarzombie]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

I’m testing various apps for iOS to make sketches on my iPad.
 

I just draw this one. I’m posting the sketch as an input to understand or plan a digital chain where clocks will be a part of it. I would assume a DCC isn’t the most common item, as most people seems to have USB DAC’s these days. Several have still found a DCC can make a DAC sound better. 
 

I’m not sure if it’s possible to make some general rules how to avoid braking isolation. What I state below is just my personal assumption. It may contain several errors. 
 

There is an isolation between A and B side. (As well as B to A). 
Same LPS to power two or more units may create loops. 
The use of LPS 1.2 (or the early LPS-1) will create isolation.

I assume some endpoints (The Rendu’s) has isolated USB out ?

The use of separate power will help, but still an ethernet cable or clock cable can create loops. 
It should be possible to power a clock with an LPS-1.2 and use a spitter to clock two items, if one of them is powered by a LPS 1.2

Grounding of EtherRegen is left out. As user guide says it’s normally not needed. 

 

I have left out clocks with isolated outputs for now. (It may seem as a optimal solution, but I don’t know).  
I have on purpose not said what’s between DCC and DAC. It shouldn’t matter. 

I can try to draw some more (generic) diagrams upon request in order to make examples so hopefully we getting some good guidance of what should work.

 

 

 

 

What does DCC please mean?

[MasterWarzombie]

BNC Oyaide DB 510 cable change from Japan. Thank you my wife.
I took the opportunity to move my AfterDArk Clock.
Continued Cable modification, Afterdark off ....... New Burn in in progress!

[MasterWarzombie]

4 hours ago, fsmithjack said:

Hello guys,

Recently purchased AfterDark OCXO Queen Square Wave 75Ohm Master Clock and love it.
 

Love it so much I want to move up the chain. 
 

I’m going to pick up a Emperor Double Crown 75Ohm Audiophilestyle special that ships with 75Ohm and BNC Cable.

 

Has anyone upgraded from Queen to Emperor Double Crown? Anyone own the Emperor Double Crown? Thoughts?

 

Adrian recommend this upgrade path to me. Told me it’s the sweet spot and the 75Ohm versions are now ready to ship. 
 

I emailed / texted Adrian and just waiting to hear back and get the invoice. Looking forward to it. 
 

I’m ordering their power supply also for my friend. I already own a JS-2. Anyone try their LPS? 
 

 

Hi ,

 

Etherregen should preferably be used with a square wave, but this is still an audiophile debate.
However, your new clock is certainly 75 ohms, but not a square wave.
I'm sure Afterdark will come out in square wave afterwards.

You have not yet completely burned your Queen Square Wave. it's a shame I think.

[MasterWarzombie]

Hi :)

I am a novice in this field.
I note from reading you that this question of the clock is a complex subject, which I do not control and I do not have this pretension of being a knowing.
However, it is fascinating. When I do not master a subject, I like to learn and understand. This is one of my faults.
To tell the truth these notions of square or not, it is complex for me.
I was very attracted (and still for that matter) by the Sotm clock but for a first step into this audiophile world, it was expensive. I turned to a Queen Square wave to begin with because intended for Etherregen and I thought to you that for the ER it was square wave.
I think the Sotm is sine.

I would like my questions to find answers for the future choice of another more "qualitative" clock even if the Afterdark clock is serious in its construction.

I am very passionate about cinema, and I realize that audio and digital are complex.
But as some say: I have to try to take a step back, appreciate and criticize my system. Everyone has almost a different system too and we all have different ears.

 

 

Thank you

[MasterWarzombie]

On 4/4/2021 at 1:25 AM, DarqueKnight said:

Road Trip

 

I removed the triple square wave 75 ohm output BG7TBL from my home stereo system and evaluated it in my stereo system at work.

The sonic improvements were similar to those achieved at home.

 

In the home stereo system, the DAC and digital player are locked to a dCS Puccini word clock. I have not (yet) taken the Puccini word clock out of the chain and re-evaluated the BG7TBL's performance in that scenario. There is no master clock in the work stereo system.

 

Figure 1. Ready to travel: BG7TBL clock, TeraDak DC-30 linear power supply, Signal Cable 10 AWG 10 foot long power cord for, DC cable, Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy Cryo-Silver 75 ohm digital cable.

 

Figure 2. Office system, top to bottom: Bryston BDP-2 digital player, Bryston BDA-3 DAC, Bryston BP-26 preamplifier. At the left is a docked Dell VenuePro 7140 tablet computer used for controlling the BDP-2 digital player. The following components are under the desk: TeraDak DC-30 linear power supply for the EtherREGEN switch, TeraDak DC-150 linear power supply for the Synology DS718+ NAS, Synology DS718+, Bryston MPS-2 power supply for the Bryston BP-26 preamplifier, and PS Audio P10 AC regenerator. Loudspeakers are a pair of highly modified Polk Audio SDA CRS+ bookshelf speakers.

 

Figure 3. The EtherREGEN sits beind the Bryston equipment stack.

 

Figure 4: Office system BG7TBL evaluation setup.

 

Every aspect of stereophonic performance was enhanced by the addition of the BG7TBL: sound stage size, image weight, clarity, detail, bass articulation, tactile sensation, etc. The thing I appreciated the most was the improvement in detail at low listening levels. Assuming the AfterDark Giesemann clock works out in my home stereo system, the BG7TBL will be permanently reallocated to the work system.

 

 

hi ,

I see you are using Wireworld starlight RJ45 cables like me.
Did you measure the impact on the ground loop that these cables can produce and break the B side of the etherregen because some say that this type of cable is "bad" although it is called audiophile.
I would like to have your specialist opinion?

Laurent

[MasterWarzombie]

The crazy thing is that for months people have been buying things at high prices. The returns were always a never-so-good SQ. In: conclusion: stratospheric. some are even poets!

And there a small filter because recommended, and there it is again "crazy from crazy."
It makes you wonder if it was that good before.

I wonder if the human ear is so sharp to hear such differences.

Ah yes, it seems that if you hold the clock with a bat wing, the effect is even better.

I tease but I wonder about the feelings of each one. We buy a basic etherregen, which is actually not that good basic for audiophile experts because you have to add 4 times the price of etherregen to get a real result .....

[MasterWarzombie]

10 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Hi:

Rereading my earlier response to you I want to be sure that I did not hurt your feelings. 

I know and appreciate that you enjoy our products, and that you take seriously the never ending quest for musical perfection. 

 

My post was to address a complaint which we have seen before—and to dispel the notion that one must spend more money in order to realize the benefits of the EtherREGEN’s 100% unique design. 

 

We see see many other switches coming to market—some at reasonable cost, some at astronomical prices—yet when we look inside at the boards most all we see are conventional switch circuits with either/both power supply or unknown OCXO.

 

UpTone is more about innovation and addressing issues at the root cause.

Proof of that is the fact that we seem alone in attempting to explain the underlying electrical effects and why they are heard—as well as how our products work to cure the problems. 

(See our ‘white paper’ from a year ago:)

 

[Above is just the first page; full paper is here:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0660/6121/files/UpTone-J.Swenson_EtherREGEN_white_paper.pdf?v=1583429386 ]

 

(Am on my phone relaxing at campsite by a lake...)

 

 

Do not worry .
I really appreciate your products (My JS2 and Etheregen) and I would surely buy your future USB product even if I already have a Sotm solution to reclock USB.

The object was not to openly criticize the etherregen since I am satisfied with it. I have followed many tips and buying products to hone my quest for a better SQ.

I just find it crazy to read the same people with ultra qualitative products continuing to write like poets on the contribution of a mini circuit filter for example following John's white paper.

The differences can only be subtle or minimal with each addition, but some people have the impression that it is day and night with each change!
Human memory can play surprises.

Afterwards I realize that we are only at the beginning of the understanding of dematerialized music even if some think that it is only 0 or 1.

I take advantage of my products including your products, it is essential for me even if music is not my greatest passion.

[MasterWarzombie]

9 hours ago, ambre said:

Hallo Martin,

 

Fully agree the addition of the Mini Circuit filter can be heard immediately and with such an ease that “ subtile” isn’t a correct description at all.
 

After playing now for two days my brains tell me that’s even improved!😇🥰😇 

 

Another tip: add  upfront ER additional switches and you will be amazed  and rewarded again. 
Why and how I do not know ??? 
Very best regard, Andreas

I assumed your clock had been unplugged to install this filter. Have you started a new initial burn in period?

 

the sine wave seems to be the solution with this filter.
We should not recommend a square wave because the latter is only for a sine wave.
However, the SQ increases in wave sine and this will no longer be the case with the square wave.

[MasterWarzombie]

2 hours ago, owldiscourse said:

Just a heads up with the digital cable connecting the clock to etherregen. Was rummaging through a drawer this morning and found a 75ohm cable (a Nordost Silver Shadow) that I decided to replace the new one ($75) that I ordered from Amazon when I picked up the AfterDark square wave clock - and oh boy was I surprised! Had been playing Biko prior to that and could barely make out the African singers at the beginning. Swapped the cables and was making out the number of singers and their words DISTINCTLY... even at a much lower volume level.  What a pleasant surprise - things are more transparent, detailed and clear than they already were. My toe is tapping and I'm on the edge of my seat again... I know Alex said to pay attention to the quality of this cable but OH MY!

I have a DR 510 oyaide cable. I think this is a suitable cable for my square wave.
I will stay with the belden cable provided by After Dark afterwards to make a comparison again, but I no longer want to burn in the clock again because as soon as you turn off, you start over. It is painful this story besides.

[MasterWarzombie]

35 minutes ago, owldiscourse said:

Interesting...if you don't turn the clock off and simply swap cables does it restart the whole burn-in process as well?

This is the procedure indicated by @AfterDark.
it is not advisable to disconnect the bnc cable from the clock if it is on .

[MasterWarzombie]

5 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

This requires explanation. 
 

Can you short the signal, which lead to damage ? Maybe John can enlighten us ?

 

5 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

This requires explanation. 
 

Can you short the signal, which lead to damage ? Maybe John can enlighten us ?

I quote afterdark !

 

 

Hi! GMG,

 

Thanks for your question. The OCXO is design to work with powers on all the time, the Giesemann clock will reach its performance around 3 hours, up to 7days and 35days to reach its max performance. The waiting is all rewarding and worth it. The sounding will be more laid back and silky smooth after runs in. 

 

For moving the clock or unplug the BNC clock cable from the devices , we recommended to switch the power off first. It is for safety reason for audiophile devices. So, it is suggested to connect every clock cables to all devices, before power on the Giesemann Clock. The Giesemann Clock will be operated in 1 second. However, the burn-in time will be re-start agains. 

 

Best Regards,

Adrian

AfterDark. 

[MasterWarzombie]

1 hour ago, PYP said:

Alex had mentioned that shielding is the important quality for sine wave clocks.  These work well for you so I assume they are well shielded.  Seems I've seen double and triple shielded cables too...

@Superdad indicated that the quality of the cable was important for a square wave. Not for a sine wave with the filter for example.

On the other hand, the posts do not have much to do with the master Clock.
It would be a good idea to create a specific topic. this is just my basic consumer opinion.

Otherwise it's quite funny all these measures because it is forgotten the musical listening

[MasterWarzombie]

1 hour ago, mikeg said:

Laurent, 

 

Where did you hear Wireworld Starlight Ethernet cables impact the ground loop and break the B side of the EtherRegen?  I have the Wireworld Platinum Starlight 8 Twinax in my system (3 x 2m cables) and EtherRegen in my stereotimes reviewing system and I have not experienced this cable to break the B side of the EtherRegen or create a ground loop.  Just wondering the source of this....

My Wireworld Starlight ethernet does not break the B side" because I prefer the sound with this cable than the cable bought from ghenaudio JSSG360.

there is certainly the theory but I prefer my feeling to the listening and it is impossible for me to measure if there is a ground loop or that the B side is broken etc.
Enjoy your music with your cable.:)

[MasterWarzombie]

18 minutes ago, owldiscourse said:

I have this same Wireworld cable and do recall seeing Alex posting some time back that cables with exposed metal plugs were not good to use but still prefer it and have continued to use it as well. 

https://www.ghentaudio.com/pc/et11.html

this cable has been recommended and is stamped as good for the B side. However the plugs are metallic.;)

 

I'm going to stop the off topic because this is the masterclock

 

 

 

[MasterWarzombie]

45 minutes ago, DarqueKnight said:

AfterDark Giesemann Emperor Double Crown Clock Square Wave With Seven Different 75 Ohm Cables

 

Listening evaluations and oscilloscope square wave plots of seven 75-ohm digital cables were done.

 

Figure 1. Top to bottom, arranged in order of decreasing sound quality: 1. Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy Cryo-Silver BNC-BNC (2015 version, 1m, $449), 2. Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy Cryo-Silver BNC-BNC (2009 version, 1.5m, $349), 3. Oyaide DB-510 BNC-BNC (1.3m, $200), 4. Belden 1865A BNC-BNC (1m, $10), 5. Prosig PSG00542 BNC-BNC (2m, $5), 6. Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy Cryo-Silver BNC-RCA, with RCA-BNC adapter (2015 version, 1m, $449), 7. Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy Cryo-Silver RCA-RCA, with RCA-BNC adapters (2011 version, 1m, $449).

 

Figure 2. The two cables with RCA terminations and RCA-BNC adapters were the worst sounding. The black-jacketed Revelation Audio Labs BNC-to-RCA cable is identical to the best sounding Revelation Audio Labs BNC-to-BNC cable, except for one end terminated with an RCA connector.

 

Figure 3. Connectors of the five BNC-to-BNC cables. Left to right: 1. Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy Cryo-Silver BNC-BNC (2015 version, 1m, $449), 2. Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy Cryo-Silver BNC-BNC (2009 version, 1.5m, $349), 3. Oyaide DB-510 BNC-BNC (1.3m, $200), 4. Belden 1865A BNC-BNC (1m, $10), 5. Prosig PSG00542 BNC-BNC (2m, $5).

 

The following oscilloscope square wave pulse plots are shown in order of decreasing sound quality. Sound quality detriments were:

 

1. Decrease in the sense of space between sound images.

2. Decrease in the depth of the sound stage.

3. Decrease in the "weight" of sound images.

4. Decrease in the clarity and detail of background percussion instruments.

5. Decrease in the details of chest, throat, lip, and tongue sounds of singers.

6. Decrease in bass detail, speed, and articulation.

7. Decrease in clarity and detail of sound images at the far rear and far sides of the sound stage.

8. Decrease in tactile sensation.

 

On a relative best to worst scale of 100 to 0:

 

Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy Cryo-Silver BNC-BNC (2015 version): 100.

Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy Cryo-Silver BNC-BNC (2009 version): 85.

Oyaide DB-510 BNC-BNC (1.3m): 60.

Belden 1865A BNC-BNC (1m): 40.

Prosig PSG00542 BNC-BNC (2m): 30.

Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy Cryo-Silver BNC-RCA, with one RCA-BNC adapter (2015 version): -10.

Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy Cryo-Silver RCA-RCA, with two RCA-BNC adapters (2011 version, 1m): -30.

 

The two last-place cables are good quality cables, but the RCA-to-BNC adapters did something ugly to their sound. The adapters were purchased from a local electronics supply store.

 

The Oyaide and all of the Revelation Audio Labs (RAL) cables use silver conductors. The 2015 version RAL cables have heavy noise shielding, including a conductive carbon outer jacket shield, and extensive vibration damping.

 

Figure 4. Best sound - Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy Cryo-Silver BNC-BNC (2015 version).

 

Figure 5. Second best sound - Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy Cryo-Silver BNC-BNC (2009 version). This cable distorted (rounded) the square wave so much that the scope interpreted it as a sine wave.

 

Figure 6. Third best sound - Oyaide DB-210 BNC-BNC.

 

Figure 7. Fourth best sound, by a wide margin - Belden 1865A, the cable supplied with the Giesemann EDC clock.

 

Figure 8. Fifth best sound - Prosig PSG00542, the cable supplied with my dCS Puccini word clock.

 

Figure 9. Sixth best sound, by a wide margin - Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy Cryo-Silver BNC-RCA (2015 version) with RCA-to-BNC adapter on the receiving end. This was unlistenable.

 

Figure 10. Seventh best sound, by a wide margin - Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy Cryo-Silver RCA-RCA (2011 version) with RCA-to-BNC adapters at each end. This was unlistenable.

 

The following oscilloscope square wave pulse train plots are shown in order of decreasing sound quality.

 

Figure 11. Best sound - Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy Cryo-Silver BNC-BNC (2015 version).

 

Figure 12. Second best sound - Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy Cryo-Silver BNC-BNC (2009 version). This cable distorted (rounded) the square wave so much that the scope interpreted it as a sine wave.

 

Figure 13. Third best sound - Oyaide DB-210 BNC-BNC.

 

Figure 14. Fourth best sound, by a wide margin - Belden 1865A, the cable supplied with the Giesemann EDC clock.

 

Figure 15. Fifth best sound - Prosig PSG00542, the cable supplied with my dCS Puccini word clock.

 

Figure 16. Sixth best sound, by a wide margin - Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy Cryo-Silver BNC-RCA (2015 version) with RCA-to-BNC adapter on the receiving end. This was unlistenable.

 

Figure 17. Seventh best sound, by a wide margin - Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy Cryo-Silver RCA-RCA (2011 version) with RCA-to-BNC adapters at each end. This was unlistenable.

Superb work.
My Oyaide DB 510 cable is Third suddenly.

In the legend of the graph, it is indicated 210 instead of 510.

[MasterWarzombie]

12 hours ago, R1200CL said:

He hasn’t asked that.  Actually people should know what they’re buying. 
 

You will be surprised what’s inside 😀

Very. 

Have you received your Afterdark Clock?

Why must we be surprised from the inside? please specify for the AS community

Without having opened it, the case is very light. it does not heat up, as if besides it was not lit (besides no indicator light on the box) but Afterdark specified that the clock was optimized
I trust Afterdark for failing to look at what's inside and I'm not sure I actually understand what's inside

[MasterWarzombie]

7 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Il semble que les gens ne s'intéressent pas beaucoup à savoir ce qu'il y a à l'intérieur de la boîte.

Avez-vous une horloge AfterDark vous-même?

 

J'aime voir les autres publier leurs mesures depuis AfterDark. Mine attaché. 
 

Scan 30 avril 2021 à 11.42.pdf 1,24 Mo · 24 téléchargements

edit : annulé

[MasterWarzombie]

8 hours ago, R1200CL said:

It seems people isn’t much interested in knowing what’s inside the box.

Do you have an AfterDark clock your self ?

 

I like to see others post their measurements from AfterDark. Mine attached. 
 

Scan 30 Apr 2021 at 11.42.pdf 1.24 MB · 29 downloads

Your certificate is from April 2020!
Your data is much better than that indicated on the site. they are equivalent to an emperor crown while you have the King version. very strange !!!

[MasterWarzombie]

On 4/30/2021 at 1:34 PM, Clockmeister said:

The bottom line here chaps is simple, if it works for you stick with it.

 

For myself my test equipment uses square wave forms so does my audio equipment; a sine wave does not produce the same desirable results on my system that I like.

 

Other equipment is more suited to sine waves,  if John feels sign waves work better for the eRegen then he designed the unit and will know more about than just about anyone else so not much to debate really.

It will be necessary that one explains to me why from now on the best for the etherregen it is the sine wave because Uptone indicated that the ER is "square wave". Besides, Afterdark was quick to make a special ER square wave version!
In fact, we take the simple consumer that I am for an idiot.

 

EDIT ! I had not read the posts including that of john just above which "puts the church in the center of the village"
However, this debate becomes complex!

[MasterWarzombie]

15 minutes ago, MartinT said:

Attached is my AfterDark certificate.  It appears to be several steps above a King in spec.

AfterDark Giesemann King.PDF 22.88 kB · 4 downloads

the Kings are excellent. The certificates are dated April 2020 . Why ?Mine was from February 2021 while the serial number is older .I'm just a square queen facing her sine king. :).