Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

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On 8/8/2021 at 4:33 AM, MartinT said:

 

Is it just me? Or folks cannot see the image. 
@martin would be kind to re-up?

TIA

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@MartinThave you also shared your experience with grounding boxes somewhere? TIA

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14 hours ago, MartinT said:

I can't edit the old post so here is an updated system diagram.

 

Curious if you found perceptible differences with a King vs Emperor at the Mutec?

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17 hours ago, Mihaylov said:

breaks not only the moat in the ER, but also makes it pointless to use the ethernet interface at all (twisted pair or optics all the same) since it deprives ethernet of its main advantage, namely galvanic device isolation. Be very careful in the network configuration so as not to break the galvanic isolation and use a separate clock for each device on the local network, then it will be sufficient one switch instead of several.

Further to this @Mihaylov, is this true (i.e compromising the moat) even if the clock in context has “Galvanically isolated outputs” to feed devices on the same network. 

e.g Ref 10

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7 hours ago, zoltan said:

Although I posted this in another threat but as this is the "clock" thread, I'll also post here. 
I just tested the Mutec Ref 10 clock outputs and they are galvanically isolated as also stated in the manual. So no problem using it simultaneously on otherwise also isolated devices.  

Thanks for sharing Zoltan. Could you let us know how you tested? 

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4 hours ago, Encore said:

 

 

My turn to report my findings with an external clock.

 

Short version (full version below photos): I bought a tube-based clock from Abbas Audio, and it’s fantastic. Sine wave, 50 Ohms. Price 490 USD + VAT & shipping. Though different in character, the clock brought an improvement of similar magnitude to what the eR brought, which was already one of the best hifi investments I had ever done. Soundstage has improved, dynamics has increased, bass is a lot more authoritative, and once again, sound became less digital/more organic.

 

 

 

 

 

Full version:

 

I bought my eR from Metawave, a Sweden-based dealer for Uptone, and they suggested that I might eventually want to try an external clock.

 

While praising the virtues of the eR to a friend who owns two DACs from Ukraine-based Abbas Audio, he suggested that I asked Abbas if he could build me a clock. Abbas uses tube-based clocks in his upper-tier DACs, and those DACs are fantastic. It turned out that Abbas does have a stand-alone clock in his products list. Price 490 USD + VAT and shipping.

 

It took a couple of months for it to be built, and another three weeks for the Danish postal service to deliver it once it had arrived in Denmark (not their finest hour). It has a sine-wave output and uses an EZ11 rectifier for its built-in PSU and an EF12 pentode. While I was waiting, I ordered a mini-filter as per John Swenson’s advice (huge thanks, John).

 

 

 

Sound: Jaw-dropping. My eR already brought a huge improvement to my system. The clock brought an improvement of similar magnitude.

 

The character of the change is different, though. While the eR made the sound much more analog-like and better resolved, in my system it didn’t do that much to sound stage or bass. The clock did.

 

Often it takes me a day or two to spot a difference (and if there is one) when I have made a change to my system. The effect of the clock was evident after less than an hour (however, see Quirks section below). It was not subtle. Soundstage is bigger and more transparent, dynamics has increased dramatically, and bass is a lot more authoritative. And once again, sound became less digital/more organic, especially noticeable on wiry-sounding recordings. The sound actually became a lot warmer, so much that I might even experiment with tube-rolling in my DAC.

 

So in my experience, the eR and the clock complement each other.

 

 

 

Stability: A few times, I have had to reboot the eR, always within the first 30 minutes of turning the clock and the eR on. Abbas says that I can leave the clock on 24/7, so from now on I’ll probably do that. The tubes are old WWII Telefunken tubes, and as the clock seems to run very cool—it doesn’t even get warm to the touch--they should probably last many, many hours.

 

 

 

Quirks: Documentation isn’t a strong point. As written in a previous post, the clock has two outputs, and Abbas writes about them: “There are two equal outputs with the sine wave about 900mv rms (no load) and 500-600mv with loading resistor 100ohm in parallel.” Abbas answers emails within a day or two but I haven’t been able to find out which output is which.

I used output 1 for four days, and while it did have an effect on sound, it wasn’t all in all for the better. More resolution but too forward. Not something I could live with.

 

I then switched to output 2, and that’s when the full benefit of the clock manifested itself.

 

I once again asked Abbas about the outputs, and this time he answered:

 

“Both outputs are the same. But they differ in phase.

There is little difference in sound, you can choose.

The output level depends on the load and gradually decreases from 900mv to 500mV at a load of 50 ohms

It doesn't really matter because the receiver always has hysteresis and turns the sine into a square wave in wide range of input level.

why two unput. You can drive two digital devices simultaneously.”

I don’t know what to make of this. There is NOT only a little difference in sound. I’m not able to determine the level of the output I’m using, but given my experience, I will probably not attempt to use both outputs.

 

 

 

Closing remarks: I have read the entire thread and some have opined that Uptone should have included a better clock in the eR, given the level of improvement possible from an external clock. By necessity, this would have made the eR more expensive, and that would probably have been prohibitive for me. Especially with a network component like a switch that ”shouldn’t” have an influence on sound, I was already hesitant to spend the money for the eR.

 

The eR was already on the best hifi investments I have ever done--I was really, really pleased with it before inserting the clock, and I have been urging all my hifi buddies to get one.

 

In fact, I can’t even bear the thought of having to live without one in my system, so I’ve placed an order for one more at Metawave. This will give me both the benefit of another eR and having a backup if one of them should go bad.

 

Thanks for this nice review! Was also considering, but went with sq. wave with Ref10. Abbas has some genius designs 👍  Keen to hear if you are using Abbas’s cables?

 

Back to Ref10 120 with ER, has taken musical enjoyment to stratospheric levels. ‘Almost’ at par with CD playback. 

 

Inspired with this review, the first of its kind applying Abbas’ clock, keen to explore. :)

 

 

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Following on, anyone played with alternate configurations to daisying ER. 

ex. 
 

ER.ext clock > ER.ext clock & onwards. 

vs 

ER.ext clock > NAA > Mutec MC3 USB.ext clock > Mutec MC3.reclock.ext clock to DAC 

vs (even extreme)

ER.ext clock > ER.ext clock > NAA > Mutec MC3 USB.clock > Mutec MC3.reclock.clock to DAC 

vs (even more extreme 🤯)

ER.ext clock > ER.ext clock > NAA > Mutec MC3 USB (A-dark mod).clock > Mutec MC3 (A-dark mod).reclock.clock to DAC 

 

 

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Thanks for sharing the results @TomJ

intriguing that ext. clock measures poor. 
Could you please shed light if the Neutronstar 3 is sq wave output? Would’ve been very interesting with Mutec Ref10120 or Adark. 

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16 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

By the way, the expensive ultra-low-jitter sine>square wave converter chip that we are adding for the first time to EtherREGEN Gen2's external clock input will do a lot to help people realize more benefit from external reference clocks (the majority of which are sine wave). 

@superdad, exciting!

how about for those of us who do not need the converter, because the ext. clock

outputs sq. wave? 

 

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In the early days with my Aqvox SE switch, I had such an improved effect of chassis and signal grounding of unused ports, using the Puritan GM. That I added Puritan route masters and connected all on my digital chain for good order. But did not see much cumulative improvement than just over the Aqvox switch. Did not do reduction and isolated testing. 
 

(For good order, then added 2nd Ground and route masters for the analogue chain, for signal and chassis grounding) 

 

My power grounding is untampered. 
This was long time ago.

So I’m also keen to understand what the measurements say re: Grounding. 

 

Since then, more  has happened. More ground shattering performance improvements. 

 

Meraki MS220 8P unmodded + Aqvox SE + ER + 120SE (separate power ground) reclocks ER (separate power ground) feeding OR and then tx-USB. And Lampizator Big7.

 

Each stage pulls its weight. With 120SE being the crowning glory. 

 

Alternate route. 
Meraki MS220 8P unmodded + Aqvox SE + ER + 120SE (separate power ground) reclocks ER (separate power ground) feeding 2x Stacked MC3 with ADark full mods, and using SPIDF out to Abbas DAC 3.2SE. Using Canare LV-77S clock cables. 
 

I prefer this 2nd configuration. Because the stacking the MC3 in RCLK mode with 120SE paired with 16Bit TDA1541 is simply magical.

 

By default, any thing that enters my chain is chassis grounded by default. 
Signal grounding of unused ports. And/Or RF protection caps. 

 

Biggest BFB on Digital signal
- 120SE clocking ER
- Stacking MC3 2x with ADark mods
- Fidelity Audio HF Filters
- Daisy Aqvox + ER
- txUSB ultra re-clocked by 120SE
- OR feeding txUSB
- Grounding Chassis and signal on all digital units. 

 

tbd: If ER2 should replace ER or get it in series..
Because, each stage has given me a step improvement.

 

Some day if I have to trim down, I would be happy with 120SE + ER2 + FA filters. +Grounding. 

 

Haven’t yet ventured into Clock cable optimization yet. Using Canare LV-77S clock cables. Taken notes from all you  wonderful folks on this gargantuan thread over the years.  But for now, increased/ing attention to family matters. 

[dylanesque]

On 7/8/2023 at 2:41 PM, Jakenz said:

I like that we both have Puritan + GM setup, albeit with systems at rather different levels. At the risk of going a little off topic, how did you initially signal ground with a Puritan PSM + GM prior to getting the Route Master?

@JakenzI have not had a PSM.  

Mike was kind enough to make a pigtails for me with the GM, in early days. 

DIY’ed leads and used a rather crude but neat way, using a Home theater panel with banana sockets, off Amazon. 

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Folks and gurus, thought experiment..

instead of using the minicircuits BLP-0.7 filter..

Any precedence of using a comparator circuit to convert Sine wave to Sq wave at the Clock input?

if so, how would one go about defining the parameters? Peak to peak amplitude.?

 

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12 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

Comparators on their own are actually terrible at converting a sine to square. Any amplitude noise (AM) in the sine wave gets converted into jitter. The best way to do it is to filter out the noise first then feed it to the comparitor, BUT the comparitor itself generates jitter. The best way is a multistage circuit with low gain at each stage with filters before and inbetween. This is what we are going to do in the EtherrRegen 2.0.

 

John S.

Lovely! Thanks as always John S.

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And as I recall, hence the ER2.0 will be waveform agnostic. Is this correct, that you can feed Sine wave without using the BLP filter? 

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14 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

I’m delighted to hear that.

+1