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Master Clock for your EtherREGEN


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On 6/9/2020 at 3:44 PM, Superdad said:

 

Actually, the EtherREGEN prefers squarewave input.  Since you have both, why don’t you go ahead and compare them? :)

Out of interest, what is the technical reason for this?

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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1 minute ago, Superdad said:

 

Let's let @JohnSwenson tackle that one.  He has explained it to me several times--including recently--but today I have the memory of a goldfish as well as a pile of e-mail to return. :S

Well, there is no rush with this one, and an answer from John would be excellent.🙂

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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33 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

The specific reason: the clock input goes into a very low additive phase noise clock synthesizer and all its inputs are designed for square waves.

 

More general reason: all the digital circuits that use clocks actually use squarewaves so feeding a sinewave into the system either doesn't work at all or gives much higher jitter.

 

Technical explanation of the above: All clock receivers have some form of threshold circuit, it changes state when the clock voltage goes through that threshold voltage. NO signals are ever perfect, there is ALWAYS some form of amplitude noise on the signal, AND the receiver itself always has some form of fluctuations on the threshold voltage. So think of the clock signal rising towards the threshold, as it gets nearer to the threshold the amplitude of the noise comes into play, the threshold might get passed when the noise is at its peak or at its lowest point, or some place in between. This noise on the signal causes an uncertainty as to when it will actually get to the threshold, otherwise known as jitter. The faster the voltage rise of the signal the lower the time uncertainty for a given noise amplitude. Thus a square wave with very fast rise and fall times will have much lower jitter than a sinewave which has a much slower changing voltage. This is the reason a circuit designed for square wave input MAY still work with a sinewave, but the jitter in the circuit clocked by the signal will be higher.

 

There ARE some ways to convert sinewaves into square waves, but the simple ways actually increase the noise on the signal making the jitter even worse. There are some ways to do it well but they are complex and expensive and take a lot of power. Putting one of those on the clock input of the EtherREGEN would have at least doubled the cost of the device, not worth it in my opinion.

 

BTW these master clocks provide both sinewave and squarewave outputs for different applications. Radio systems that need a very stable frequency reference for running into mixers etc want a sinewave. Digital systems want a square wave. Either system CAN use the other type, but won't work nearly as well. So it is best to get the type of master clock that works well with what you want to use it for.

 

I hope that makes some sense.

 

John S.

Thanks John, you explanations and insights are always an interesting read.  

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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  • 1 month later...

Guys - A couple of years ago a there were a lots of posts on other threads discussing clock cables for various 10MHz clocks and similar.  At the time there were a few posts suggesting that we needed a dedicated thread to capture the combined experience for clock cables, of all types and costs.

 

A good idea I think, but the clock cable thread never really caught on and sadly withered out of use.

 

Anyway, some great posts here and elsewhere regarding clock cable suggestions, maybe it is time to try and resurrect the clock cable thread?  If the thread could gain some momentum, it could be a very useful resource and reference going forwards.

 

A link the the thread below, it would be great if we could capture some of the more recent cable experience here and give the old thread new life.

 

 

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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  • 5 months later...
8 hours ago, Superdad said:

To you too! :D

 

Might be okay for the prosound studio with all those features, but miserable performance for audiophile applications. Especially for $6,500...

From their spec page, the phase-noise is:

1Hz ≤-70 dBc/Hz
10Hz ≤-87 dBc/Hz

 

The $100 reclaimed cell tower OCXO clock that this thread stated with is about -125dBc/Hz at 10Hz offset for 10MHz carrier. And the 25MHz Crystek CCHD-575 built into the EtherREGEN is (if adjusted by 6dB/octave to what it would be as a 10MHz clock) about -119dBc/Hz at 10Hz offset.

Or for another comparison, the Mutec REF 10 has phase noise measurements as follows:

 

1 Hz ≤ -116 dBc/Hz (the new SE120 improves this to -120 dBc/Hz)

10 Hz ≤ -145 dBc/Hz

 

OK - The reclaimed cell tower OCXO's are the value for money offering here, but the Mutec REF 10 is cheaper than the Antelope 10MX, and offers higher performance whare it matters.

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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  • 2 weeks later...
30 minutes ago, Roasty said:

I just received the 75ohm square wave clock from aliexpress.

 

Powered off the ER. Hooked it up. Turned clock on. Turned ER on. Light is green on the clock and music is playing. 

 

Is that all there is to it? 

Should be, yes.

 

Although I would give it a couple of hours before you do any “critical listening”, it does take a while for this type of clock to stabilise.

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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5 hours ago, Roasty said:

I've just sent my sotm sms-200ultraneo back to sotm to install a 75ohm clock input. 

 

With regards to the clock cables.. I have that Geistnote Apogee one from amazon, and another from Ghent Audio (I think the cheap belden one). 

 

Has anyone tried pricier options? I've read on some forums that basically any 75ohm digital coaxial cable with bnc plugs work as clock cables as well. 

Not a direct answer to your question, but I while ago I started a thread with the aim of trying to pull together recommendations for clock cables.  See link below.  The thread never quite got the interest that I had hoped that it would, but there are a few interesting tips there.  And if anyone else has some recent clock cable experience, feel free to post per the thread linked below!

 

 

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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  • 2 weeks later...
18 hours ago, Clockmeister said:

From looking at the chaps posting on here with the equipment in the signature they are a couple with top quality sounding clock cables I have listened to, most of you will not wish to go to that level. However using something similar to above which will cost around between £75 and £125 will sound damn good for your applications more so than most up to £600 mark imho.

Have you had any experience of the Habst Digital?  At one time it seemed to be the subjectively preferred cable of choice over in the "novel" thread.  (It is most definitely in the "less affordable" category though)

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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  • 1 year later...
7 minutes ago, Jeremy Anderson said:


Please remind me, does EtherREGEN fall-back to its internal clock if the external signal isn't present? We've had some power outages lately and I wonder if the Mutec powering up concomitantly with the EtherREGEN has left my ER defaulting back to the internal clock. Easy enough to fix, but your post gave me pause.

No it does not. If the clock switch is set to "EXT" and no external 10 MHz clock feed is connected, the EtherRegen simply does not work.

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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