Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[PYP]

On 5/30/2020 at 5:41 PM, Superdad said:

AfterDark, UpTone's successful dealer in Hong Kong, is also a big Cybershaft dealer. And he will be doing bundles of their MA-OPxx clocks with the EtherREGEN and our JS-2 later this summer.

 

Interesting.  From the photo of the back of the MA models, it indicates 15V 1A (and 13.5 - 16v).  Isn't the JS-2 limited to 12V?  I ask because I have a JS-2 and am considering a reasonably-priced external clock.  

 

 

[PYP]

What brand of cables are folks using with their clocks?

[PYP]

I'm asking my question in this thread since it didn't belong in the listening impressions thread.  Did you DIY your Canare cable?  I'm asking since I like the idea of a short cable, but haven't seen a pre-terminated 0.5m 75 ohm Canare cable.  The pre-terminated ones tend to be longer that 0.5m.  Thanks.   

 

[PYP]

6 hours ago, bernardl said:

I read recently a comparison performed in HK where the conclusion was clearly in favor of the Cybershaft vs the Mutec Ref10 (or perhaps Ref10 SE120 not sure).

 

It would be interesting to know where the diminishing returns are in Cybershaft's lineup.  Of course, if you want the best, the OP21A makes sense.  I opted for the low end - the OP13 - and should have it today.  My only need is feeding the eR, so no need for more than one connection.  The cost is about $1,400 (fluctuates with currency exchange, of course).  Only had a few, brief exchanges with Kenji Hasegawa, but it seems clear to me he is serious about providing a good product.  

 

My gear comes from the U.S., Britain and the Netherlands, and they all get along just fine. I expect the Japanese gear will too.   

[PYP]

1 hour ago, bernardl said:

what made me aware of Cybershaft in the first place is a comment from the CEO of Shunyata Research a few weeks ago where he commented that he considers their clocks the best and only use them for all their design and testing activities. I happen to value his opinion.

 

That is very interesting and quite a testimonial given their testing activities.    

 

My initial impression of the Cybershaft OP-13:  well packed, straightforward and informative manual, very solid build quality, the included test results and certificate are a nice touch.  Clearly, a lot of time and thought has gone into providing a quality product.  

 

I've never used an external clock, so my only comparison will be the eR with its internal clock and live music.  According to the manual, the clock stabilizes over the next month (from what I've read, this is true of all clocks).  I'm intrigued by what the clock might add.  Last night, before adding the Cybershaft, the music was beautiful and I didn't have any desire for an "improvement" to what sounded like an exciting live performance.  

 

The design of the eR made it very simple to connect the clock.  I'm starting to understand first-hand the point Rajiv made in his comprehensive review:  the eR is both an endpoint and a platform which can accommodate an LPS,  external clock, and fiber input.    If you are happy with the eR as is, you are done and have beautiful music.  If you want to experiment, the design allows for that.  👍

[PYP]

8 hours ago, MartinT said:

My Canare LV-77S clock cables finally arrived. They are pretty substantial and come with very nice Canare BNC connectors.

 

Who would have thought clock cables could make such a difference?

 

I wonder if for clock cables the connectors are more important than they are for analog ICs, for example.  I'm using the LV-61S while my clock stabilizes (thanks for the recommendation - nice cable, especially for the price).  

 

Your clock seemed to have an immediate impact, which is interesting.  The folks at Cybershaft estimate 30 days for their clock to stabilize fully.  So far (1 week +), the Cybershaft is better than the eR's internal clock, but I've only had a few, temporary instances when I heard what it might be able to do.  If those instances are a taste of what is to come, I'm going to be very, very pleased.  Thanks for starting this thread.  It made me research clocks and, given Alex's recommendation, pick a clock that seems a reasonable investment.  

[PYP]

7 hours ago, MartinT said:

No, it shouldn't, and judging by the superb sound quality it works very well in practice (I'm using a dual output LPSU with floating ground).

 

Is the ground for the clock floating too?

[PYP]

On 7/23/2020 at 9:00 AM, MartinT said:

My Canare LV-77S clock cables finally arrived. They are pretty substantial and come with very nice Canare BNC connectors. I slotted them in place of the LV-61S cables. It's early days but right away I can hear even more vibrancy, snap and another layer of low level soundstage.

 

Never mind good acoustic recordings, what it does for well constructed electronic creations like Yello's Flag, a truly wonderful album, has to be heard to be believed. Incredible layering and depth.

 

Who would have thought clock cables could make such a difference?

 

Not me.  But gave The Melody from Evidence Audio a try and am absolutely shocked by how much better it is than the LV-61S.  Thanks for mentioning the cable's contribution to good sound.  While I've found (copper) ethernet cables make a difference, which surprised me, I didn't think a clock cable would matter as much.  

[PYP]

In my system, the addition of a Cybershaft OP13 clock maximizes the effect of the eR.  As some others have found by adding an external clock, the overall presentation becomes even more natural and has even greater liquidity and effortless clarity.  In my system, the other very obvious benefits are improved timbre, a warmer sound that has more body and density, bass that is subjectively deeper, and clearer high frequencies.   All in all, the change is not subtle and the gestalt is definitely more musical and very enjoyable.   Given my musical enjoyment before the clock, I assumed that no significant improvements were needed and that significant improvement could only be had by overcoming the limitations of my room through further room treatments and/or software correction, neither of which I wanted to pursue.   

 

This particular Cybershaft model has one 10 MHz 75 Ω output, which is switchable to 50 Ω (the stock eR uses 75 Ω).  There is a thread on whatsbestforum.com that discusses the Cybershaft product line and the high performance of these well-built clocks.  Designer/manufacturer Kenji Hasegawa has clearly put in a lot of thought, time and effort into his designs.   The manual provides further proof of that.  Communications with Mr. Hasegawa have been excellent.  

 

For more information:  Cybershaft – http://www.cybershaft.jp/overseas01.html  (English page)

 

Hong Kong dealer - Adrian at AfterDark:  https://www.adark.co  

[PYP]

1 hour ago, Exocer said:

 

I have ordered this one as well : http://shop.geistnote.com/gnEAMLWC.asp#gsc.tab=0

 

Will report back any improvements/differences if I notice any.

 

Very interested in first impressions and also after about a week or so of settling in.  I'm currently using this cable.

[PYP]

2 minutes ago, Exocer said:

I purchased it because I saw you enjoyed it 😁.

 

  Hope it works out for you too...

[PYP]

1 hour ago, Exocer said:

Well my wife helped me do a blind test switching cables.

So I will try this test again in several weeks with more songs after breaking in the Geistnote some more.

 

 

Just a fun experiment for a Sunday.

 

 

If my experience is typical, settling in requires two weeks or so.  Am curious if your wife would characterize it as a "fun experiment for a Sunday," but won't ask.     

 

For Emerson, Lake & Palmer fans, I was going to say:  Oh, what a lucky man...

but looked up the first verse:

 

[Verse 1]
He had white horses
And ladies by the score
All dressed in satin
And waiting by the door

[Hook]
Oooh, what a lucky man he was
Oooh, what a lucky man he was

[PYP]

It is interesting how quickly the clocks that use cell-tower surplus have a positive effect.  My Cybershaft took a while to warm up-- probably two weeks (vs. a few hours for the cell-tower-based gear) before a real difference and then a month to complete the process.

 

Why might that be?  

[PYP]

58 minutes ago, sgb said:

I don't know if you think that the Chord Epic Digital BNC cable for $590 is audiophile cable. I use that one with a very good result.

 

Did your cable take a long time to settle in?  I was surprised by how long mine took (Evidence Audio - The Melody clock cable), but very satisfied at the end of the process.  

[PYP]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

Well you just have to give it another 3 million years...

 

Doesn't this belong in the Objective-Fi forum?  

[PYP]

17 hours ago, ambre said:

But the discussion is now  pending due to statement a few post earlier by John S. That EtherRegen prefers like the Mutec Masterclock the so-called square waves instead as specified by Giesemann and Cybershaft used Sine-wave.

 

Will be interested, as always, in what John says.  I can confirm that the Cybershaft makes a significant improvement to the eR's performance in my system.  Right now, the SQ is very, very good.  Wouldn't want to be without the eR!  Waiting to make the right purchase, as we know, will save you from cycling through gear.  Enjoy the search.  

[PYP]

13 minutes ago, ambre said:

HalloPYP, can you specify which type of Cybershaft you use, which 10 Mhz cable and what kind of supply in yr case.

 

Thanks in advance.

Best regards, Andreas

Andreas,

 

Cybershaft OP13 clock  

Evidence Audio - The Melody clock cable (0.5 meter; 75Ω) (purchased from Geistnote LLC)

UpTone JS-2 (can be ordered with one 14.5 v output to feed the clock)

 

Regards.  

 

 

[PYP]

 

 

3 hours ago, AfterDark. said:

The adapter is a matching adaptor made by Cybershaft , we sold a unit of EtherREGEN to them, and they have perform testing when this adapter was plug into 75ohm EtherREGEN,  it work well and no performance issue. 

my only experience with clocks is the Cybershaft 13.  From that limited experience I concluded that the folks at Cybershaft work very hard to provide an excellent, well-built product and useful manual. In short, they know what they are doing.  My user experience is that a linear power supply for the clock is necessary to get the full performance (even though with an SMPS the performance of the eR is enhanced significantly by the clock). 

 

 

[PYP]

1 hour ago, ambre said:

Master Clock & Switch and SFP:

        Ps. Two independently powered supply will give a better sound quality.

From my own experience, I agree that adding something like the OpticalModule before the eR improves SQ (in my chain:  copper ethernet to OM, then short fiber to eR, copper ethernet from eR to DAC).  Haven't tried all permutations, but can say that a linear power supply for the OM, separate from the one for the eR and clock, sounds very good.  That is my current setup.    

[PYP]

4 hours ago, R1200CL said:

I have several times asked what clocks is in use. 

While it is clear many folks are looking for clocks that are less expensive than the Cybershaft OP13, I'm listing the screening criteria Cybershaft uses.  For the Cybershaft OP13 model specifically:      

 

Phase noise offset 1 Hz:  -113 dBC / Hs or less

Allan Deviation:  TAU = 1 sec; less than 5.6E-13(0.00056ppb/s)

 

Each unit includes a Certificate of Calibration for that unit.  Here is mine:  Cybershaft OP13 certificate of calibration.pdf

[PYP]

On 1/21/2021 at 10:51 PM, AfterDark. said:

 

Yes, there is a transformer type 10M distributor adaptor made by Cybershaft. This adaptor can make make 2 outputs of 10M signal. So that you can use them on EtherREGEN and Mutec MC3-USB with the same 10M Clock. 

 

 

 

Does this provide fully isolated outputs?  I am curious if it could be used with a Cybershaft and two eRs without defeating the moat.  

[PYP]

1 hour ago, Avalfa said:

I think to remember I read something in this topic before. That the js-2 shares a ground rail on both DC outputs, which will end up using it with both ER and the clock in bypassing the moat of the ER since the clock domain is on the b-side, and the a-side will be connected to  eachother in the js-2?

 

I hesitate to respond since Alex has asked to keep this about the benefits of clocks in general vs. a particular clock, but my own experience is using the JS-2 to power both the eR and a Cybershaft clock.  Sounds very good indeed; therefore, I'm confident that, generically speaking, an excellent external linear power supply will benefit any clock.  

[PYP]

5 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

You ARE shorting the moat of both ERs. You have a direct leakage current path to the DAC with this configuration.

 

First off the two outputs of a JS-2 share the same ground. The power input goes to the A side of an ER. The clock connection is on the B side. Thus powering the clock box from the same JS2 shorts the moat on the first ER.

 

 

My current configuration is a JS-2 powering an eR and an external clock, so it seems I am defeating the moat (if I understand you correctly).  That isn't what my ears are telling me though, which is puzzling.  The following are the additions to my basic system.  Since I was aware of the JS-2's shared ground, I tried variations to see which sounded best.  

 

Each addition below resulted in progressively improved sound:

 

1.  Add eR, using the stock SMPS.  

2.  Power eR with JS-2.

3.  Add OpticalModule, powered by SMPS.

4.  Power eR and oM with JS-2.

5.  Power eR with JS-2 and power oM with separate LPS.

6.  Add external clock to eR.  Power eR with JS-2 and power clock with SMPS.

7.  Power both eR and clock with JS-2.  

 

 

 

[PYP]

6 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

This why there is no hard and fast rule. One of the primary reasons for the moat is to stop leakage current from SMPS powering network equipment form getting to endpoint and or DAC. Yes you have shorted the moat by using the same JS-2 to power the ER and clock, BUT you have blocked the network leakage by using the optical interface to the ER. So in this case shorting the moat is not that big of a deal. The galvanic isolation does have a small impact on the clock phase noise isolation, so un-shorting the moat might give a small improvement.

 

John S.

Thank you, John.  Finally realized I forgot what I assume is an essential fact:  The external clock's ground is floated.  I assume a floated ground would "fix" the moat shorting.  (The clock's ground/float switch provides the ability to experiment.  When I received the clock, the switch was in the floated position and it sounded so good I left it there. Completely forgot about it).

 

I'm not sure if the eR + Om + JS-2 should be called the John S. trifecta or triple play, but this is a powerful combination of three of your designs!

 

Thanks for your time.  Know you are working on creating other incredible gear.  

[PYP]

On 1/30/2021 at 1:16 AM, JohnSwenson said:

It depends on what is floated from what. If the floating means the clock output has no connection whatsoever from the power supply, then it MAY be all right. The only way that can happen is a transformer on the clock line which is certainly possible. BUT high impedance leakage from SMPS CAN pass through transformers. So relying on a "float" in the clock box may or may not work.

 

John S.

Thank you.  I've been thinking about adding a second eR (improvements from nice to significant have been reported). That would provide an A > B...B >A connection.

 

The chain could then be:  OpticalModule > fiber > NEW eR A side (using supplied SMPS and internal clock) > B side > copper ethernet > B side of CURRENT eR (JS-2 powering eR and clock) > A side > copper ethernet > DAC.

 

If I understand correctly, the moat would then be intact in both eRs.  Is that correct (hope so)?