Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[ambre]

On 1/2/2021 at 3:50 AM, JohnSwenson said:

Wow, someone who gets this stuff! I'll make an attempt to answer this stuff. First off I forgot to mention magnetic fields. The whole process takes place in a strong magnetic field which tends to align spins making these lines easier to detect.

 

#1, this is a gas at low pressure, it doesn't have to be ultra high purity, but that does help. Visual light is used to pump the gas to the particular line in question. So the gas is glowing at that color (line) that contains the hyperfine line in question.

 

#2, YES! This is all about the wave equations for the atoms. But not just the electron cloud but of the nucleus as well. Your second part is correct. The fine lines ARE changed by interactions from one atom to the nearby atoms in the gas. But the hyperfine lines are nucleus to its own electrons which are much closer than the electrons in other atoms due to the low pressure of the gas. That is actually one of design parameters, lower gas pressure give less interaction with other atoms, but fewer atoms to look at! The energy difference between hyperfine lines stays constant, even though temperature, pressure etc are changing the fine structure.

 

#3, Good question, I'm not quite sure. It always seems that when you are using a microwave field to tune for such lines, when you are in tune the field gets lower (atoms absorb the microwaves). I'm not sure what happens with the re-emitted em waves.

 

 There are two ways to do the feedback, one has a separate coil of wire going to an amplifier to detect the amplitude of the field for the feedback loop, the other just measures the electrical signal going into the chamber. The electrical signal going in is always what is used to measure the frequency.

 

#4, you bet! That is always one of the big issues with the designs. Really good deigns these days use hydrogen masers for that purpose! (they cost $250,000 and are the size of a refrigerator).

 

The REALLY top of the line ones these days are called "fountains" they let the atoms fall in free space so the interactions between atoms is extremely small.

 

I think we better stop this now, Alex is probably going to get annoyed with this digression from EtherREGEN stuff.

 

 

John S.

 

On 1/2/2021 at 1:51 AM, JohnSwenson said:

Aha, THAT as they say is a good question!

 

The understand that you have to understand how they both work. The crystal oscillator is easy, quartz actually changes shape when an electric field is applied. It has a sharp "resonance" frequency where the expansion and contraction works extremely well. Same hyperfine structure if you look REALLY carefully. The frequency of a fine line is determined by the electron distribution in an atom, so it still depends on interactions 

 

John S.

Hallo John and others,

 

I just found a masterclock of Teac. Can you tell me if this masterclock as used as add-on for the Teac DAC UD 505 can also be used for my EtherRegen?

Ps. Price in Europe approx, € 1300,00 that much cheaper than the Mutec etc.

I have copied a summary of the Specs:

The CG-10M is a master clock generator that delivers an extremely accurate clock signal to allow Digital-to-analogueue converters (DACs) to perform at their ultimate best.

It is a well-known fact among audiophiles that the clock signal is the foundation for all digital signal processing. For example, digital signals, such as PCM, are divided extremely finely into tens of thousands of parts per second along the time axis. If that fundamental time axis fluctuates during the process of D/A conversion it is much more difficult to render an analogue audio waveform that is identical to the original. This is all the more true with DSD audio signals that function at MHz speeds in the time axis. For this reason, having as accurate a clock signal as possible is very important for the re-creation of digital audio signals, particularly HiRes files that use ultra high sampling-rates, such as DSD 22.5MHz or PCM 768kHz.

At the heart of the master clock generator is a crystal oscillator, encased in in a temperature-  controlled box, the "oven", to maintain the best and stable performance under an ideal temperature condition for crystal oscillation. This oven-controlled crystal oscillator (OCXO, for short) generates an extremely accurate 10MHz clock signal which is within ±3 ppb of frequency temperature characteristics and within ±0.1 ppm of frequency precision.

The elegant analogue gauge on the front panel gives a visual indication of the status of the internal crystal oscillator at all times..

The CG-10M is a master clock generator that brings out the best performance from USB DACs, network players, CD players and any other kind of device that supports a 10MHz clock input.

Main Features

 

High-precision "TEAC Reference OCXO" – an ‘oven-controlled’ crystal oscillator

±3 ppb frequency temperature characteristics, ±0.1 ppm frequency precision

4 x 10MHz clock output connectors (gold-plated BNCs)

Completely independent and isolated circuit

High capacity toroidal-core power transformer

OVEN STATUS gauge with dimmable backlight, for monitoring oscillation stability 

3-positioned Patented Pin-Point feet to minimise vibrations

Full-metal body to eliminate incoming electromagnetic noise

 

 

A class-leading ultra high-precision clock

Thanks to the TEAC Reference OCXO, the CG-10M delivers an ultra high-precision 10MHz clock signal – within ±3 ppb of frequency temperature characteristics and within ±0.1 ppm of frequency precision – to USB DACs and digital players.

A unique laser-engraved serial number and the TEAC Reference OCXO logo on every OCXC case is proof of the rigorous quality inspection undertaken during the manufacturing process.

ppm=10–6, ppb=10–3

Frequency temperature characteristics: A value of frequency fluctuation caused by temperature change

Frequency precision: An actual frequency range 

Four BNC clock output connectors.

 

Thanks in advance, 

regards Andreas

[ambre]

16 minutes ago, MarkusBarkus said:

...there was a thread on this a few years back, FYI. Think it's the same item:

 

Ok will read But questionnaires remains the same...suitable for EtherRegen? Y/n

[ambre]

Superfast Superdad, 

 

Alex, thanks a lot for your quick responsie. Will have a look at products you mentioned.😀

 

Ps) Maybe an idea to make a shortlist from “ approved” resp. suitable Masterclocks for the beautifull  EtherRegen?

 

 Very best regards, Andreas

[ambre]

On 1/3/2021 at 5:34 PM, Superdad said:

 

If if you are looking for a good performance clock at modest prices, look to Cybershaft. Even their entry level models (some as little as $700) each come with full individual calibration/test sheets and phase-noise plots. 

https://www.adark.co/collections/cybershaft/products/copy-of-cybershaft-ma-op13-op19-ocxo-10mhz-時鐘-vip

(I am pasting the link to Cybershaft entry series on their Hong Kong dealer’s site because specs are given in English at the bottom; Cybershaft’s pages are Japanese only.)

 

Also, AfterDark—a dealer for both UpTone and Cybershaft (plus others) has collaborated with someone to produce about a clock range with pretty good performance—starting at about $400:

Hi Alex, 

Contacted Aftdark and I have a quotation for several types of Clocks,  additional power supply and a Masterclock -cable too. Sounds fascinating and affordable.

Speaking about specs what will be GOOD enough for the EtherRegen?

 

Phase Noise

Emperor Giesemann EVA] Phase Noise -120dBc at 1 Hz / -140dBc at 10 Hz

[Emperor Giesemann] Phase Noise -118dBc at 1 Hz / -140dBc at 10 Hz

[Emperor Triple Crown] Phase Noise -114dBc at 1 Hz / -137 dBc at 10 Hz

 

Allan Deviation 艾倫方差短期穩定性參考值

[Emperor Giesemann EVA]TAU = 1sec 2.50E-13或更短（0.00025ppb / s）

[Emperor Giesemann]TAU = 1sec 2.78E-13或更短（0.00028ppb / s）

[Emperor Triple Crown] TAU = 1sec 3.8E-13或更短（0.00038ppb / s）

 

Ps.BNC clock cable to connect 10M to UpTone tailor made BNC clock cable with Huber + Suhner plug and cables.

 

There statement is " this product can work with Mutec MC3, Esoteric, UpTone EtherREGEN etc. The improvement is huge, soundstage, and more focused. 

 

Please your advice so that I pull the trigger.

Regards, Andreas

[ambre]

3 hours ago, jamesg11 said:

The thread’s BG7TBL not included ...?

Hi James,

It is discussed un the same thread too. Just started to read all 20plus pages.🤪

 

What are your experiences with this € 80,00 clock is it rubbish or can it be used well with the EtherRegen etc?

 

Best regards, Andreas

[ambre]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

I did send John my BG7TBL as well as the AfterDark clock.

However, he is right in the middle of two highly important development phases for the next two UpTone products and those have priority over him spending a day to set up, warm up, and run phase-noise plots on these clocks. Maybe in the slack time while waiting for next round of development test boards to come back...

Hi Alex,

 

that's  a little bit pitty. The recommendation by you for Afterdark concerning Giesemann  and Cybershaft are fine.

Had several discussion with Adrian of Afterdark last 3 days including a nice quotation concerning Giesemann Masterclocks.

 

After studying it.... appeared that these Giesemann Clocks are all 50ohm and not suitable at first instance for the EtherRegen unless you have had ordered the  special 50ohm EtherRegen version. Ps. He offered later a converter 50-> 75 ohm forEtherREGEN around EUR30. Ps. Cybershaft can deliver a 75 ohm.

 

But the discussion is now  pending due to statement a few post earlier by John S. That EtherRegen prefers like the Mutec Masterclock the so-called square waves instead as specified by Giesemann and Cybershaft used Sine-wave.

 

Afterdark stated " we can make square wave, but the high quality OCXO is on sine save side". The OCXO is only determined by Phase noise, Allen Derivation. And " Most audiophile Like CH Swiss , Esoteric, Mutec MC3 use Sinewave as standard and EtherREGEN is working well as well."

 

I am lost now🥴 and will wait to pull the trigger till there is consistency and clarity by Uptone which clock can be best used.   

 

 Very best regards, Andreas

 

[ambre]

36 minutes ago, PYP said:

 

Will be interested, as always, in what John says.  I can confirm that the Cybershaft makes a significant improvement to the eR's performance in my system.  Right now, the SQ is very, very good.  Wouldn't want to be without the eR!  Waiting to make the right purchase, as we know, will save you from cycling through gear.  Enjoy the search.  

Thanks 😁

[ambre]

57 minutes ago, FIndingit said:

Those of us who have the BG7TBL with sine and sq wave outputs can compare the two.
 

I seem to prefer the sine wave, which either means the Chinese sq wave conversion is bad or I happen to enjoy the added sparkle of some jitter. It’s very easy to hear the difference. Sine has more highs and air. 

Can you choice either square of sine wave in same Bg- device ?

[ambre]

8 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

This is a tough one, there are a lot of different interactions involved, no simple "This is always the best". I've been thinking all night about the best way to present this, I think I have  figured out a good way to present it, but it will take awhile to get it all written up, so be patient it may take a few days.

 

John S.

Thanks in advance.

[ambre]

23 hours ago, PYP said:

 

confirm that the Cybershaft makes a significant improvement to the eR's performance in my system.  Right now, the SQ is very, very good.  

HalloPYP, can you specify which type of Cybershaft you use, which 10 Mhz cable and what kind of supply in yr case.

 

Thanks in advance.

Best regards, Andreas

[ambre]

26 minutes ago, PYP said:

Andreas,

 

Cybershaft OP13 clock  

Evidence Audio - The Melody clock cable (0.5 meter; 75Ω) (purchased from Geistnote LLC)

UpTone JS-2 (can be ordered with one 14.5 v output to feed the clock)

 

Regards.  

 

 

Thanks

[ambre]

Found also this Masterclock from well known company Paul Pang.

Does somebody tried this in combination with EtherRegen?

 

[ambre]

1 hour ago, AfterDark. said:

Phase noise measurement and Allan Derivation can shows how good is the OCXO for audio equipment.

Hi Adrian, glad you joint this thread concerning an appropriate Masterclock for the EtherRegen. What to be the best bang for the buck will be? A clock for €5000,00 for a devuc
regards, Andreas

[ambre]

2 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Are we discussing this clock ?

https://www.adark.co/collections/project-giesemann-ocxo/products/afterdark-project-clayx-giesemann-ocxo-10mhz-時鐘?variant=32128368476278

 

If so, maybe a DC version can be made ?

Group buy ?

From afterdark 2 types / brands. The Giesemann emperor (up)  and Cybershaft 14 up. See pics below. 

 

GROOPS BUY: Yes.. as soon John Swenson tells us which of the 3 types are appropriate resp. good enough for the EtherRegen. Resp a good bang for the buck.😉

[ambre]

On 1/11/2021 at 12:53 PM, Ponkbutler said:

It's a pity PPA don't provide any phase noise measurements

Hi Ponkbutler and John S.

 

See below the measurements concerning Paul Pang master clock provided by the dealer in Belgium. 
How this compares to the Afterdark, Cybersaft etc I don’t know. There are several users in France, Belgium that use this Masterclock with the EtherRegen with much success.

Ps. The price is €999,00 without a decent supply. Sounds interesting 🧐 

Ps2. See link of the dealer is picture below.

 

 

Found also this Masterclock from well known company Paul Pang.

Does somebody tried this in combination with EtherRegen?

 

[ambre]

11 minutes ago, AfterDark. said:

Yes, square wave version can be made too. The above example is mid-range model. 

Hi Adrian,

 

which brand do you mean Giesemann and/or Cybershaft?

 

Please give more details which model / type  name is used to produce abovementioned graph?  
 

Is square - wave now pre-requisite in combination with the well specifiate EtherRegen?

 

Ps. Several people reported reported benefits also using sin-wave clocks ?!? How can?

 

Last statement for now if we need to use high end devices from Mutec or brands like Top model Cybershaft that cost between €3000<=> 5000,00 to grant a real uplift of the Uptone device of approx. € 650,00 than everbody has decide which route he prefers.

 

Recently I have upgraded my Auralic Vega G to G2.1 costing also  additionaly €3K but is very attractive in my subjective opinion / judgement. Plus additional features 😍 too.

 

What is “common ”  sense at all? 

[ambre]

19 hours ago, ambre said:

 

Hi Ponkbutler and John S.

 

See below the measurements concerning Paul Pang master clock provided by the dealer in Belgium. 
How this compares to the Afterdark, Cybersaft etc I don’t know. There are several users in France, Belgium that use this Masterclock with the EtherRegen with much success.

Ps. The price is €999,00 without a decent supply. Sounds interesting 🧐 

Ps2. See link of the dealer is picture below.

 

 

Found also this Masterclock from well known company Paul Pang.

Does somebody tried this in combination with EtherRegen?

 

 

19 hours ago, ambre said:

 

Hi Ponkbutler and John S.

 

See below the measurements concerning Paul Pang master clock provided by the dealer in Belgium. 
How this compares to the Afterdark, Cybersaft etc I don’t know. There are several users in France, Belgium that use this Masterclock with the EtherRegen with much success.

Ps. The price is €999,00 without a decent supply. Sounds interesting 🧐 

Ps2. See link of the dealer is picture below.

 

 

Found also this Masterclock from well known company Paul Pang.

Does somebody tried this in combination with EtherRegen?

 

 Hi Guys, made a mistake this Paul Pang OCXO Dual Rail has a built quality supply. My mistake sorry

[ambre]

On 1/16/2021 at 8:57 PM, GMG said:

Yeah, I used superglue 

After several chats with Adrian of Afterdark I like to share their latest ideas and proposals especially for Audiophilestyle members.

 

1.     Master clock for EtherRegen:

 

a)     Master clock for EtherRegen together with appropriate linear supply. 

b)     This version has following specs; Phase noise -130dBC/Hz @10Hz. In a Square wave or Sin-wave edition. 

c)     Basic Audiophilestyle version with Square- wave will cost approx. HK$ 3600,00 or the Sin-wave (version Queen) also

         HK$ 3600.

d)     Including 1.0 mtr GIESEMANN CLOCK CABLE + 10% OFF DISCOUNT CODE: AUDIOPHILESTYLE.COM + 75OHM

        ADAPTOR.

e)     The Giesemann Linear Power Supply at 12V 35W 2.2A, Dual 12 outputs. With CARBON FIBER + SCHURTER GOLD

        FUSE & FURUTECH NCF will cost HK$ 1200,00

f)      Resume; two options for Master Clock for EtherREGEN (Sine and Square wave)

 

 

 

 

2)     Master Clock & Switch and SFP:

 

a.     The dual switch setup with Afterdark Switch to EtherREGEN will create huge improvement when they are optimized

         with 10M Master Clock.

b.     The option of this special edition will be in Square wave only, so that every EtherREGEN user can enjoy the package

         without any concern, so we planned to match the requirement for EtherREGEN. 

c.     Two Linear Power Supplies are built inside. One is for the Switch and SFP Modules, one is for OCXO clock Module.

        Ps. Two independently powered supply will give a better sound quality.

d.     Recommended by Afterdark to use this switch at the front end, and Uptone EtherREGEN at the end, so they can

         connect with optical fiber. The result of OCXO switch will be improve sounding.  

e.     1.0 Mtr Master Output to the Uptone EtherREGEN, all switches, SFP modules, EtherREGEN are synchronized with the

        same Master clock.

f.      Recommended is also to use this switch at the front end, and Uptone EtherREGEN at the end, so they can connect

         with optical fiber.

g.     The result of OCXO switch will improve sounding. Since 10M Master Output to the Uptone EtherREGEN, all switches,

        the SFP module and EtherREGEN are sync with the same clock. The result will be very impressive says Afterdark. 

h.     The most advanced version 8 PORTS SWITCH + 1.0 Mtr MASTER CLOCK OUTPUT + SFP OPTICAL ISOLATOR will cost

        approx. HK$ 9950,00. (1.0 Mtr GIESEMANN CLOCK CABLE + DISCOUNT 10% CODE: AUDIOPHILESTYLE.COM

       +75OHM ADAPTOR).

 

 

 

 

3)     General remarks:

 

a)     Exchange rate 100 HK$ will be approx. €10,70 or $12,90.

b)     Most important question what can be used at best for solely the EtherRegen. Sin Wave or Square wave? 

        I do hope that Uptone will give us an answer in short term.

c)     Statement Afterdark comparing sine and square waves, is very hard due to different quality of OCXO’s.  

         And it is quite confusing for normal customers to choose between sine and square waves.  

d)     Afterdark made two videos on YouTube, which may give the customer a simple demonstration of the sounding.  

 

Regards, Andreas

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNuZ21-78cg&feature=emb_title

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH3JEn6m3II&t=75s

 

[ambre]

34 minutes ago, Ponkbutler said:

Thanks Andreas (and Adrian),

 

Tha sounds very interesting. Will there also be an option for the OCXO Master Clock without linear PSU - I have spare outlet on my Sean Jacobs linear PSU.....

Yes look on techie website https://www.adark.co/

[ambre]

On 1/8/2021 at 8:30 PM, JohnSwenson said:

This is a tough one, there are a lot of different interactions involved, no simple "This is always the best". I've been thinking all night about the best way to present this, I think I have  figured out a good way to present it, but it will take awhile to get it all written up, so be patient it may take a few days.

 

John S.

Hi John,

 

We are now a few day later can you report resp. help in the discussion what to use Square-wave or Sin-Wave etc.  

Thanks in advance.

 

Regards, Andreas

[ambre]

39 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Hi @ambreand @R1200CL:

I appreciate your enthusiasm for the affordable new series of clocks from AfterDark, our very good dealer in Hong Kong. However, I ask that you not turn this thread into an advertisement for those products.

Thank you,

—Alex C.

Hi Alex,

 

I absolutely love the Uptone EtherRegen switch that I really want to make maximum use of the excellent design through a Master Clock and / or Fiber connection. 

 

I hope that Uptone resp. John S can help us choose the right components resp. manufacturer. In other words, a kind of guide to making the right choices, making the most of the EtherRegen design. 

And I'm looking for the best value for money as possible. 

 

Ps. Will no longer promote Afterdark as a potential customer. Doesn't seem necessary to me, given your own words. 

 

Regards, Andreas

[ambre]

34 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

 I understand the clock is same as being used in the one several of us has already purchased well below $100. 

That’s a really firm statement hopefully you can underpin this too!! 

Ps The same as Mutec E10 uses costing 36x more😎

[ambre]

On 1/18/2021 at 3:34 PM, ambre said:

 

1.     Master clock for EtherRegen:

a)     Master clock for EtherRegen together with appropriate linear supply. 

b)     This version has following specs; Phase noise -130dBC/Hz @10Hz. In a Square wave or Sin-wave edition. 

c)     Basic Audiophilestyle version with Square- wave will cost approx. HK$ 3600,00 or the Sin-wave (version Queen) also

         HK$ 3600.

d)     Including 1.0 mtr GIESEMANN CLOCK CABLE + 10% OFF DISCOUNT CODE: AUDIOPHILESTYLE.COM + 75OHM

        ADAPTOR.

e)     The Giesemann Linear Power Supply at 12V 35W 2.2A, Dual 12 outputs. With CARBON FIBER + SCHURTER GOLD

        FUSE & FURUTECH NCF will cost HK$ 1200,00

f)      Resume; two options for Master Clock for EtherREGEN (Sine and Square wave)

 

Hi Guys,

Just ordered the Giesemann Master Clock with Emperor Crown OXCO with seems  superior to entry level of Cybershaft.

Including an appropriate Supply LPS ( Carbon Fiber, Gold fuse, Furatech NCF and 0,8 mtr DC cable)  with all further add-ons Clock Cable (Huber + Suhner & BNC plugs)  and Cybershaft 75-> 50 Ohm adaptor.   AND A NICE GROUPS BUY DISCOUNT FOR " AUDIOPHILESTYLE"  USERS.

 

I give the Giesemann a fair chance. Ps. I also ordered the BG7TBL 10Mhz Ocxo 3 Channel Square Wave for around € 90.00. And I can compare everything with a Mutec Ref 10 and maybe a SOTM too.

 

For your information. A well-known person whose name cannot be further mentioned uses the entrance Cybershaft (Sin wave) to his satisfaction. The Emperor Crown from Giesemann for the approx. same price is much better in terms of specifications according to Afterdark. For the all-in price of approximately € 840,00 this seems a good purchase. Especially compared to the established brands in this segment.

 

 

[ambre]

2 hours ago, R1200CL said:

https://audiopc.shop/en/winkel/accessories/paul-pang-ocxo-10mhz-external-master-clock/
 

Did you contact him to get numbers for measurement and verification of galvanic isolation of outputs ?

(There is a used one for sale in Germany). 

See earlier post and reply Superbad on specs PP - clock 

[ambre]

On 1/21/2021 at 11:44 AM, ambre said:

Hi Guys,

Just ordered the Giesemann Master Clock with Emperor Crown OXCO with seems  superior to entry level of Cybershaft.

Including an appropriate Supply LPS ( Carbon Fiber, Gold fuse, Furatech NCF and 0,8 mtr DC cable)  with all further add-ons Clock Cable (Huber + Suhner & BNC plugs)  and Cybershaft 75-> 50 Ohm adaptor.   

Hi Guys, 

 

This is my initial review of the Afterdark Giesemann OXCO Clock (Emperor Crown) and its associated Afterdark 12V double outlet power supply.  Part of the Audiophilestyle.com groups deal as offered on the website of Afterdark. 

 

I use the EtherRegen powered by a Farad super3 as immediately this gives observable improvement compared with standard Uptone power supply.  All is playing on an Auralic Vega 2.1 Streamer Dac etc.  

 

But to lift a tip of the veil, it is a wonderful improvement this Afterdark Clock. More than worth its money compared to other possibilities in terms of Master clocks and/or other tweaks. The Afterdark Master Clock adds a lot of extra. 

 

For more details look at the new Afterdark sponsored forum. Instead of the Uptone sponsored forum concerning the Master Clock for your EtherREGEN.  Otherwise Superdad becomes SuperBad. 

 

Have a look.

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/profile/41989-afterdark/

@afterdark