Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

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Hi there, I have acquired the following clock  but unfortunately it isn’t working. I followed the instructions from the eR manual but so far no lights on the Ethernet port. Any clues? Tks Jorge

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22 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

What are you powering the clock with? It takes 12V. Does the green light on the box come on?

 

The procedure is to turn off the ER (unplug ITS power, move the little slide switch on the back so the lever is near the BNC jack. Plug the BNC cable in between the clock box and the ER (it doesn't matter which jack on the box you use). Power up the clock box, make sure the green LED on the clock box is lit up. THEN plug the power back into the ER. This should work.

 

John S.

Oh John,

So kind from you... Really thank you!
Yes, I tried with the stock SMPS and also with an LPS 1.2 set to 12 v. The light from the box is green. I also followed the instructions from the eR manual (the same as the ones indicated by you). Could it be a 50 Ohms unit sent by error? Is there a way to verify it? The eR works perfectly. 
Thank you again for any additional input you may have. Cheers Jorge

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Tks again John. You were right. The third output worked. I was really surprised with what I heard. Nothing about timbre but the details were terrific. Wow. It’s a pity that you’re not available to pursue that road... Imagine the success of an etherClock. Just saying. ☺️🤗☺️ However the connection is not stable and after a couple of tracks I must reboot the oR. It is connected with fiber to the eR. Probably the clock needs to stabilize. Let’s see if it improves over the night. Warmest regards. Jorge

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11 hours ago, Superdad said:

Yes, as previously explained, the EtherREGEN (‘B’ side in particular) will not tolerate even the slightest hiccup in the clock. It will not recover (without reboot) after a glitch even as short as 3uSec. So clock and cable must be perfect.

Thank you  so much John. Just to say that after 24 hours, everything seems to be ok and I am quite happy with the results. 

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4 hours ago, R1200CL said:

I guess you did click on the link 😀

I find your other question valid, but let’s just be patient and wait for John. 
AfterDark is not designing these PCB on clocks himself. He has help.

In an earlier post I even suggested if he could find a way to use John’s expertise. 
Waiting for a product and also knowing I will pay (included in sale price) royalties to John is what I prefer if possible. I like to know what products is arriving during 2021 before deciding on a clock. 

Don’t really want to comment on this, but I am really curious. I asked perhaps one year ago if a clock was being considered and John explained the multiple challenges around it. While back at that time I stayed convinced the odds were against it, I think that the conditions might be there for another successful product: on one hand the extraordinary benefits that come from the eR are more than demonstrated; on a second hand there is also a growing awareness that the eR can still be improved by adding an external clock. Time will tell... 🤗

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7 hours ago, R1200CL said:

@sgr

You could make a sketch 😀

About sketches (and I am sorry Alex for this post) could someone kindly indicate a suitable program to ilustra-te my setup? Tks

Jorge

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While it was an improvement on its own with the eR, after adding a Buffalo 2016 I decided to remove the Cisco as I getting better SQ without it.

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2 hours ago, Mouna said:

Has anybody tried the tungsten block on this one on top of the clock or found any other improvements - or can anyone recommend a PSU from After Dark to match the quality of the double crown?

I tried the tungsten, but didn’t experience any noticeable improvement. 

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On 3/7/2021 at 8:15 AM, R1200CL said:

My thinking is that more products will have external clock input.

I don’t have the full answer how to best incorporate several clocks into a system. Hopefully John’s upcoming clock paper will give some answers. 
 

How much the various products will benefit from a better clock I don’t know, but based on the experience with even the very reasonable priced $93 clock used on EtherRegen, it’s my expectations that a clock will squeeze out even better performance in the digital chain wherever it’s being applied. 

It is also highly likely AfterDark clocks is the standard from now, based on price and performance. 
 

All his clocks was 50 ohm. He made a 75 ohm special square wave for use with EtherRegen.

He also made a 3 output 75 ohm clock with internal power and isolated outputs. 
 

My AfterDark clock purchase is on hold. I know I will purchase one. I just don’t yet know what’s best for me.  So much need to be planned. 

 

I know I kan purchase individually clocks powered by LPS 1.2 and be quite certain I won’t create any unwanted loops by the coax cable.

 

Let’s say there is a new Rendu with external clock input.
Maybe an optical Module with external clock input. 
You like to use a SU-1 or a DI-20 upfront your DAC. (I have no choice, and must use a DCC). 

You may like a second EtherRegen in your chain. 
 

Then you probably would prefer the same impedance for your clock.

Now, forget about impedance for a while, as if you purchase a 50 ohm clock, you can always use an adapter to create 75 ohm. But at the moment you can’t go the other way. At least not with AfterDark and Cybershaft products.

And yet the discussion of the use of adapters hasn’t started. 

 

Here is the challenge:

How do I create a good clock network without braking any isolation in my (your) devices ? 
Anyone willing to make that schematic using 4 clock inputs ?

There are so many variables, that you for sure need to make a schematic.

Try and post some bulletproof setups 😀 

(What a support hell is coming, if new products have external clock interface). 

For me personally, I can’t use AfterDark triple 75 ohm version as both DCC under evaluation is 50 ohm. The designer of the DI-20 tells me sine or square doesn’t matter.

 

I don’t know how much, if any, if a isolation circuit and square wave conversion affect the phase noise. 
I don’t know if there is several technics to implement isolation, and if there is god or bad sides how isolation is done. When knowing how much John and Alex has put into isolation for their products, I really need some convincing words about designing isolated multiple clock outputs. As well as switching 50/75 outputs. And why not make the isolation on the receiver side ? It can’t be that easy or ?

This is also why I’m thinking, but I don’t know for sure yet, that a singel (50 ohm) clock with isolated power by LPS 1.2 and a splitter may be the best solution. 
 

AfterDark has already confirmed that the combination of a 50 ohm spitter and a 50 to 75 ohm converter will work very well. I should also avoid any isolation issues by using Uptone LPS 1.2. 
 

Also I’m asking myself if there is a limit to how good phase noise numbers I really need.

 

We are not there yet, and if so it’s probably at least 2 years ahead before, if ever, we can have optical clock signals. (John has posted about the challenge in this tread). 

 

I’m holding my clock purchase from AfterDark on hold until John’s clock paper is our, as well as we (I) need to understand how many of the new products from Uptone and Sonore has a clock input. And of cause if it’s a 50 ohm or not. 
 

My conclusion for now is that 50 ohm should be the standard in clock interfaces. 
Several items seems to support 50 ohm input. The OCXO’s itself seems to be 50 ohm. 
If you have a 50 ohm clock, you can always use it on a 75 ohm input by an adapter, but not the other way. 

The decision of standardize on 50 ohm will not affect those that own a 75 ohm clock today. 
Why: Cause if any upcoming products won’t match your only only possible 75 ohm clock output, I predict both Uptone and Sonore will allow for a custom made 75 version of their products. I also noticed most clocks has the 50 ohm option anyway. 

 

Here is some (most ?) common other clocks.
Mutec REF10 has six 75-Ohm outputs and two 50-Ohm outputs. Cybershaft clocks are selectable. So really not an issue for those owners as well. Antelope is 75-Ohm  

 

Standardize on 50 ohm will make us choose more variants og AfterDarks clocks. And even the cheap AliExpress ones.

If AfterDark is to modifies his products any more, it may be from sine to square. But what can’t this be done at the receiver side. I have asked AfterDark how he measure a square wave clock, but haven’t got an answer. If I’m getting a sine clock, the supplied measurements for that clock is taken from the BNC connector. How important is it to have a square wave clock ? Can a conversion affect phase noise if not done properly ?

Anyone purchasing an EtherRegen from now is highly likely to benefit from a 50 ohm version. Unless you know you’re in for the special custom made AfterDark clock. 
 

 

 

 

Very timely and appreciated some of the questions you have shared by many of us including me. Just a point of clarification on the AfterDark clock. From what I understand following a reply from Adrian he can make a customized version of every clock with a 75ohm output. 

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23 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

If any of you guys is using the EtherRegen the reverse direction, you may waste your money on a clock. 
 

I hope I’m wrong. 
 

I’m saying this cause:

“Because of this slight increase in phase noise when going from B to A, if you use a REALLY good external clock (such as a Ref10), you will only get the advantage of such a clock when connecting the B side to the streamer.”

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/38968-etherregen-the-long-development-and-active-launch-discussion-thread/page/32/?tab=comments#comment-951313

 

Thanks @James Stephens for the tip 😀

 

Opps my case here. As my eR is connected to an opticalRendu. However the SQ improvements are quite good using the cheap clock. In any case John was not sure if the impact would be enough to affect SQ. Just saying. I don’t have much choice.. 

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9 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Probably several. 
Well, it’s an inspiration for John and Alex to make the. B side optical. 
 

All this could of cause be verified with phase measurements adding clocks etc., but it’s not the right time to ask for this.

Anyway I can use my clock testing against SU-2 when it’s arriving. I would expect at least 4 weeks from now. And a half kg tungsten is on its way as well. 

Tks 😂😂😂

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I have the same here. Not sure how it compares to the DAPU, but I am quite happy with the results. It would be great to have its specs notably phase noise.

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1 hour ago, James Stephens said:

 

Hi there same as the DAPU. There is also a link to the specs. James

Tks James. Quite helpful!

Jorge

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57 minutes ago, DarqueKnight said:

I have received my Mini-Circuits filters. The people at Mini-Circuits were a pleasure to deal with. The order was placed mid-morning and it was shipped early afternoon the same day. It arrived three days later by FedEx.

 

Figure 1. The filters arrived in a sturdy box with copious amounts of protective paper padding.

 

Figure 2. Two of the BLP-10.7-75+ 75 ohm filters and one of the BLP-10.7+ 50 ohm filters were ordered. I have one BG7TBL with three 75 ohm square wave outputs and another BG7TBL with a 75 ohm square wave output, a 75 ohm sine wave output, and a 50 ohm sine wave output.

 

Figure 3. I did not pay attention to the filter size on the spec sheet. I expected them to be smaller.

 

Figure 4. I also received this accessory for my Tektronix TDS 2012 oscilloscope. It is a 75 ohm feed through termination for impedance matching of 75 ohm cables to the scope's 1 M-ohm input impedance.

 

Figure 5. Three 75 ohm BNC cables. Bottom to top: Prosig PSG00542 RG-59/U coaxial cable, 2 meter length. This cable came with my dCS Puccini U-Clock word clock, cost $5, Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy Cryo-Silver with Oyaide BNC connectors, 1.5 meter length, made in 2009, cost $349, Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy Cryo-Silver with Furutech BNC connectors, 1 meter length, made in 2015, cost $449.

 

Figures 6 through 8 show the waveform and amplitude distortions that occurred due to the impedance mismatch between the cables and the scope. The BG7TBL had been on for over 24 hours prior to taking measurements.

 

Figure 6. Square wave pulse train waveform with Prosig cable, impedance mismatch.

 

Figure 7. Square wave pulse train waveform with RAL 2009 cable, impedance mismatch.

 

Figure 8. Square wave pulse train waveform with RAL 2015 cable, impedance mismatch.

 

Figure 9. Square wave pulse train waveform with Prosig cable, impedance matched.

 

Figure 10. Square wave pulse train waveform with RAL 2009 cable, impedance matched.

 

Figure 11. Square wave pulse train waveform with RAL 2015 cable, impedance matched.

 

Figure 12. Square wave pulse waveform with Prosig cable.

 

Figure 13. Square wave pulse waveform with RAL 2009 cable.

 

Figure 14. Square wave pulse waveform with RAL 2015 cable.

 

The RAL 2015 was the best sounding of the BNC cables.

 

Figure 15. Unfiltered sine wave from 75 ohm BG7TBL output.

 

Figure 16. Sine wave from 75 ohm BG7TBL output with 75 ohm Mini-circuits filter.

 

Listening Evaluations

 

Figure 17. EtherREGEN with Mini-Circuits 75 ohm filter at its clock input. Both the EtherREGEN and the BG7TBL clock were powered with separate TeraDak DC-30 linear power supplies.

 

I cannot speak for anyone else's EtherREGEN, but mine, and my ears, much preferred the BG7TBL's square wave input. Switching to the BG7TBL's 75 ohm sine wave input caused a loss of bass detail, diminished tactile sensation, and diminished imaging properties. Inserting the filter caused a further reduction in sound quality, particularly in bass detail.

 

While my results with the Mini-Circuits filter were not positive, I would not discourage anyone from trying it, especially if you have a high quality sine wave clock. Results will vary based on your clock and cables.

Thank you for sharing your results.

Here it was exactly the opposite. I was really surprised with your findings.
Would you consider selling me the 75ohm version?  Just to compare results to the one I got.

Thank you. 
Jorge

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1 hour ago, PYP said:

Are there 75 ohm high-quality external splitters?  I have two eRs.  The Cybershaft feeds one (has one sine wave output), but perhaps it can feed both eRs.   

 

Not sure if that defeats the moats, however.  

 

Should get the 75 ohm mini-circuits filter on Monday.  Interested if my setup will respond positively or negatively.  

With thanks to ambre:

https://www.adark.co/collections/cybershaft/products/cybershaft-limited2-ocxo-10mhz-op14-op20

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1 hour ago, PYP said:

I was looking at the 50 ohm input (single input on the upper left), which is a mismatch with my Cybershaft's 75 ohm output.  

 

Same problem here. Perhaps you could contact Adrian from AfterDark. I also order a 75 Ohms clock and I am in the same situation if I ever will to connect another device... 🙂

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52 minutes ago, PYP said:

Well, I should let everything settle in once I add the filter.  And I don't want to gild the lily.   

I was surprised with the SQ upgrade I experienced. The voices are really incredible. 

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54 minutes ago, LowMidHigh said:

A telling example of how deep and wide expectations bias prevails in this hobby. 

No expectations from my side either. Perhaps I was one of the few lucky guys here. And yes the filter improved substantially my results. 

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2 hours ago, pietka08 said:

Excuse me, which filter are you referring to?

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On 4/5/2021 at 4:12 AM, GMG said:

Does anyone have a recommendation for reasonably priced multimeter scope that I can use to measure and see the waveform output of my clock?

And while I am at it I would also like to be able to see my mains waveform - see how noisy (or not) it is.

 

Will this work?

 

https://www.amazon.com/YEAPOOK-Handheld-Oscilloscope-Professional-Bandwidth/dp/B07XBL4BTL/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=1VZZ3OSFUOL2D&dchild=1&keywords=multimeter+scope&qid=1617609321&sprefix=multime%2Caps%2C299&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFSNDZOUFNBUVBTRDMmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAxMjI5NzZRREw1OTJJNEY0RkImZW5jcnlwdGVkQWRJZD1BMDcyMzA0ODFEOVUxWkZJMEk2NTUmd2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl

Sorry for my ignorance but can this device be used to measure the clock phase noise?

Thank you.

Jorge

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26 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

This is actually quite a good price for a small 100MHz scope. You can use this to look at a clock waveform, but there is no way you can use this to measure phase noise even close to the levels we are talking about here.

 

John S.

Tks John! 
🤗

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5 hours ago, ambre said:

Hallo Martin,

 

Fully agree the addition of the Mini Circuit filter can be heard immediately and with such an ease that “ subtile” isn’t a correct description at all.
 

After playing now for two days my brains tell me that’s even improved!😇🥰😇 

 

Another tip: add  upfront ER additional switches and you will be amazed  and rewarded again. 
Why and how I do not know ??? 
Very best regard, Andreas

Square or sine wave, the filter has became an essential add-on also for me. 👍

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4 hours ago, MasterWarzombie said:

We should not recommend a square wave because the latter is only for a sine wave.

I’ve got two clock, one sine (AfterDark EG) and the BTP. In both cases the filter improved SQ. 

[soares]

On 4/13/2021 at 7:32 AM, Rasputin said:

Tak, skal du have:)))  I did. I just do not trust Ali to buy American branded goods.  I have been through experiences of getting a fake. 

50 is a question, everyone reported increases had 75, my clock and etheregen 75, so in order to be on the safe side I wanted 75. Now if the 50 is really the same (can someone confirm from the experience and not theory?) that could be a solution.

I’ve got the 50 version. It works great with both the BG7TBL and the AfterDark Emperor Giesemann. Both are 75Ohms as well as my eR. Couldn’t live without it. Will order soon the 75 Ohms to compare.