Building a DIY Music Server with custom made parts

[Dev]

The whole purpose of this thread is how do we manage a Asus Sage C621e motherboard and mount two Xeon scalable in a Hdplex H5 case. 

Can we all stick to LGA3647 socket mounts and Asus Sage C621e (or possibly another motherboard or two with 3647) on a HDplex H5 in this thread please ?

 

Other sockets lga1200, lga2066, different types of motherboards, different types of CPUs and their benefits with HQP can be discussed outside this thread. There are endless suggestion and debates around these that will only confuse this thread further.

[bit01]

@Nenon, @Peter Avgeris  - the idea of sticking with the seemingly popular HDPLEX 2nd Gen H5 and possibly stacking two of them appeals. A simple spacer  on the sides where the top/bottom covers normally sit and thin plates where the front cover fasteners are can be made to hold the two cases together with the aid of a modified back plate as well. Full height extension cards could then be housed? in addition the dc-atx converter  or ps regulators could be placed in the 'upper level' case. This might shorten the length of cables needed if supporting brackets are carefully located- my 2 cents.

 

[adamaley]

I found a resourceful way to attach the HDPLEX 800W DC-ATX converter to the base of the H5 case without having to drill holes into it. I used 3M double sided tape to attach it. I bring this up because if finding space for it may be a bottleneck, it could be attached to the interior of the faceplate, for example, as long as it has a close enough reach to the ATX connector on the motherboard itself. This is one requirement that shouldn't be a show stopper

 

 

 

[Nenon]

18 minutes ago, adamaley said:

I found a resourceful way to attach the HDPLEX 800W DC-ATX converter to the base of the H5 case without having to drill holes into it. I used 3M double sided tape to attach it. I bring this up because if finding space for it may be a bottleneck, it could be attached to the interior of the faceplate, for example, as long as it has a close enough reach to the ATX connector on the motherboard itself. This is one requirement that shouldn't be a show stopper

 

The problem is there is no space for the 800W DC-ATX when you install the Asus Sage motherboard. 

At one point during working on my prototype Asus Sage I attached it with standoffs on the outside of the heatsink (allowing some distance for proper heat dissipation). 

 

A custom made ATX cable can go through the power button hole you see in the bottom of the picture. It was just a quick thing to get it going, not something I kept permanently, but I thought I would share as it might be an easy solution for somebody here. 

[Miska]

5 hours ago, jabbr said:

AVX512: sure its great and I got the W-2245 so I would have that but unfortunately it clamps the clock rate to base -- I measured that personally (results on my thread) and at the end of the day, the reduced clock rate is offset by the improved processing capabilities. I selected the Xeon W-2245 (using @Miska's advice) specifically because it has a high base clock rate -- 3.9 Ghz -- even though it can burst to 4.7 Ghz ... I did hit a thermal limit using HQPlayer Pro and tuned my fans as a result.... now you can overclock an i9-10900k, and overclocking would give better performance than W-2245 but for my machine I wanted the PCIe lanes so tradeoff. I would have got a more expensive Xeon CPU with more cores but they *all* have lower base clock rates.

 

My choice of W-2245 is specifically the clock speed, vs memory bandwidth vs AVX512 vs PCIe lanes vs ECC RAM (since the machine runs 24/7/365 for critical tasks). Mine is HP Z4 workstation, with next business day onsite warranty extended to five years.

 

So that choice was result of careful balancing of various factors of the Xeon family.

 

[adamaley]

16 minutes ago, Nenon said:

 

The problem is there is no space for the 800W DC-ATX when you install the Asus Sage motherboard. 

At one point during working on my prototype Asus Sage I attached it with standoffs on the outside of the heatsink (allowing some distance for proper heat dissipation). 

 

A custom made ATX cable can go through the power button hole you see in the bottom of the picture. It was just a quick thing to get it going, not something I kept permanently, but I thought I would share as it might be an easy solution for somebody here. 

Ah, I see what you mean. Makes sense. 

[OAudio]

All,

 

I was taking a moment to step back though earlier to think about the 2 CPU direction. It is quite complex and expensive in relative terms to a single CPU c621 build. I was trying to fathom why go that route ?

 

Is it following the established Sage build taken by Taiko with the Extreme server so likely to assure a good SQ outcome, this could be a reason in and of itself. Are there any known "USPs" or theories that people are driving to realise with the Sage dual 2 CPU route ?

 

A few things circulating in my mind comparing with a single processor c621 build.

Cost, motherboard, 2* CPUs, 12* Memory DIMMs

More demanding on PSU requirements

Needs PCIe cards for network and USB interfacing to perform

Use of NUMA routing for cross CPU1 acceding CPU2s memory (slower than direct CPU to Memory access)

Cooling

Unusual form factor to accommodate

 

The main reason for dual processors that I am coming up with is: there may be a possibility to allocate end point and music server software processes (control and file storage tasks) to separate physical processors. Might by good if the music server streams files to the end point during playback maybe.

 

I don't have any experience of Dual CPU builds and why you would do them so thanks for any thoughts / experiences.

 

O Audio

[The Computer Audiophile]

51 minutes ago, OAudio said:

All,

 

I was taking a moment to step back though earlier to think about the 2 CPU direction. It is quite complex and expensive in relative terms to a single CPU c621 build. I was trying to fathom why go that route ?

 

Is it following the established Sage build taken by Taiko with the Extreme server so likely to assure a good SQ outcome, this could be a reason in and of itself. Are there any known "USPs" or theories that people are driving to realise with the Sage dual 2 CPU route ?

 

A few things circulating in my mind comparing with a single processor c621 build.

Cost, motherboard, 2* CPUs, 12* Memory DIMMs

More demanding on PSU requirements

Needs PCIe cards for network and USB interfacing to perform

Use of NUMA routing for cross CPU1 acceding CPU2s memory (slower than direct CPU to Memory access)

Cooling

Unusual form factor to accommodate

 

The main reason for dual processors that I am coming up with is: there may be a possibility to allocate end point and music server software processes (control and file storage tasks) to separate physical processors. Might by good if the music server streams files to the end point during playback maybe.

 

I don't have any experience of Dual CPU builds and why you would do them so thanks for any thoughts / experiences.

 

O Audio

Great questions. 

[austinpop]

56 minutes ago, OAudio said:

Is it following the established Sage build taken by Taiko with the Extreme server so likely to assure a good SQ outcome, this could be a reason in and of itself.

 

This is exactly the discussion that can derail this thread. Can we just take the above as a good enough reason?

 

Remember, this thread started with Peter observing that people attempting such extreme builds could benefit from his access to customization resources. Let’s focus on that.

 

If we get into the “why on earth would you want that?” discussion... well, we know how those threads end up.

[adamaley]

1 hour ago, OAudio said:

All,

 

I was taking a moment to step back though earlier to think about the 2 CPU direction. It is quite complex and expensive in relative terms to a single CPU c621 build. I was trying to fathom why go that route ?

 

Is it following the established Sage build taken by Taiko with the Extreme server so likely to assure a good SQ outcome, this could be a reason in and of itself. Are there any known "USPs" or theories that people are driving to realise with the Sage dual 2 CPU route ?

 

A few things circulating in my mind comparing with a single processor c621 build.

Cost, motherboard, 2* CPUs, 12* Memory DIMMs

More demanding on PSU requirements

Needs PCIe cards for network and USB interfacing to perform

Use of NUMA routing for cross CPU1 acceding CPU2s memory (slower than direct CPU to Memory access)

Cooling

Unusual form factor to accommodate

 

The main reason for dual processors that I am coming up with is: there may be a possibility to allocate end point and music server software processes (control and file storage tasks) to separate physical processors. Might by good if the music server streams files to the end point during playback maybe.

 

I don't have any experience of Dual CPU builds and why you would do them so thanks for any thoughts / experiences.

 

O Audio

The genesis of the thread was @Nenon's dual CPU build attempt, which drew the interest of @Peter AvgerisA to provide a more elegant solution. Particularly because the dual Xeon CPU route poses a bigger hurdle than a single Xeon CPU build.

[OAudio]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

This is exactly the discussion that can derail this thread. Can we just take the above as a good enough reason?

 

Remember, this thread started with Peter observing that people attempting such extreme builds could benefit from his access to customization resources. Let’s focus on that.

 

If we get into the “why on earth would you want that?” discussion... well, we know how those threads end up.

 

Austinpop hi

 

I have read a lot of you posts in the past, its nice to say hello.

 

There is no agenda here just a few relevant questions to the tread that people may want to discuss and we all may learn from the discussion. The thread has been growing quickly so you may not have seen a few of my posts (couple of links for convenience below). I know a reasonable amount about the c621 platform, and I hope these posts added to collective knowledge here.

 

I try where can understand how hardware might be helping music reproduction, I don't know much about dual CPU systems hence the questions, they are not loaded.

 

At the first sign of defensive exchanges I will be off, I am here to enjoy the company of other enthusiasts.

 

OAudio

 

 

 

[Peter Avgeris]

5 hours ago, Dev said:

The whole purpose of this thread is how do we manage a Asus Sage C621e motherboard and mount two Xeon scalable in a Hdplex H5 case. 

Can we all stick to LGA3647 socket mounts and Asus Sage C621e (or possibly another motherboard or two with 3647) on a HDplex H5 in this thread please ?

 

Other sockets lga1200, lga2066, different types of motherboards, different types of CPUs and their benefits with HQP can be discussed outside this thread. There are endless suggestion and debates around these that will only confuse this thread further.

Yes. The purpose is more or less as you write. But here it seems that something new, that might prove as equally interesting in the (near) future, has come to light. How about a single cpu system with this chipset? 

 

As I informed you, a dual cpu MoBo is on its way to my place. I will have the chance of evaluating single vs dual cpu performance, with the Xeon CPUs of Taiko Audio's machine. Something deep inside my mind tells me that probably this specific motherboard with C621 chipset may perform better with single CPU. 

 

Either way, this does not affect the project, or may affect it with minimal impact. That means the main purpose of this effort is to house a machine that a lot of DIYers and enthusiasts here seem to like a lot. 

 

BUT:

Here comes the next step. As soon as this will be done, why not to be able to make something that will be compatible to 2 or 3 other combinations that seem to be of equal interest? For example, a single CPU ASUS 3647 MoBo, another one with the modern W Xeons, etc? 

 

I see that many are, or possibly would be, interested in full height chassis. This is nothing that difficult. Stacking two heat sinks is out of question for my standards. As soon as something will be done from the beginning, why not done properly? 

 

We should not worry of the possibility that this thread might go off track. We are all on track. This is why everybody expresses his own opinion. We need to include several options. And end up with a solution that could serve various options. 

[austinpop]

5 minutes ago, Peter Avgeris said:

We should not worry of the possibility that this thread might go off track. We are all on track. This is why everybody expresses his own opinion. We need to include several options. And end up with a solution that could serve various options. 

 

Ok great. As OP, it’s your thread. I’ll go back to read-only mode.

[Dev]

 

40 minutes ago, Peter Avgeris said:

We should not worry of the possibility that this thread might go off track. We are all on track. This is why everybody expresses his own opinion. We need to include several options. And end up with a solution that could serve various options. 

 

 

If you want to design something that can accommodate most, if not all, nothing like it. Go for it then 👍

 

[Dev]

38 minutes ago, Peter Avgeris said:

Yes. The purpose is more or less as you write. But here it seems that something new, that might prove as equally interesting in the (near) future, has come to light. How about a single cpu system with this chipset? 

 

As I informed you, a dual cpu MoBo is on its way to my place. I will have the chance of evaluating single vs dual cpu performance, with the Xeon CPUs of Taiko Audio's machine. Something deep inside my mind tells me that probably this specific motherboard with C621 chipset may perform better with single CPU. 

 

By the way, this one is what I was looking at earlier if I have to go single CPU, which is also my preference. I would have gotten it by now if H5 supported the 3647 mount. The design is very similar to the raved C621e but more expensive. The biggest benefit is its CEB (12" x 10.9"), so no worries about the DC-DC Atx convertor space inside (at least the smaller 400watt). Also many here uses Euphony and its unknown if further OS optimization would be needed for two socket'ed system (I bet it does) and without root access we are handicapped.  

 

Design a heatsink mount and many would be golden without going to expensive 2 CPU solution.

 

https://www.asus.com/us/Commercial-Servers-Workstations/Pro-WS-C621-64L-SAGE

 

[Nenon]

31 minutes ago, Peter Avgeris said:

As I informed you, a dual cpu MoBo is on its way to my place. I will have the chance of evaluating single vs dual cpu performance, with the Xeon CPUs of Taiko Audio's machine. Something deep inside my mind tells me that probably this specific motherboard with C621 chipset may perform better with single CPU. 

 

To do a proper evaluation of this, I suggest you dedicate at least 3 months (suggest 6 months) to do this and only this. A digital source is a complex chain where everything interracts together. My dual CPU source sounds way much better now than it did 2 months ago and will sound even better 3 months from now. This is a very long process - I have been tweaking power supplies, trying different operating systems, different players, different settings, different drivers, different BIOS settings, different affinities, different priorities, different RAM modules, different Optane cards, different NVME storage, different BIOS versions, etc. etc. The list goes on and on. With over 1000 different parameters, you make a change to one of them and you have to revise everything all over again. 

The benefit from a dual CPU is that you can isolate services, processes to its own CPU. Simple example - network activity always impacts the sound quality while you are playing, no matter what server ot hardware you are using - with a dual CPU you can isolate certain activity away from the activities directly involved in music playing.

I was not planning to comment on anything that is not related to the chassis customizations but just wanted to make this clear. Comparing digital sources is not like comparing analog devices. You can plug one amp to your system and easily compare to another. Yes, there are a few variables - you can do tube rolling, change vibration controling devices, power cords, interconnects, etc. but you pretty much know right away how the two compare. Comparing a motherboard with a single CPU and a motherboard with dual CPUs is a completely different animal. Just installing your favorite OS and your favorite player tells pretty much nothing. 

[OAudio]

Guys,

 

Great conversation,

 

@Dev

 

I am not familiar with the Euphony software package, that's a really interesting point about root access to UNIX and how that plays into a decision about processor count.

 

@Nenon

 

So seperation and optimisation of OS / audio software / device driver across physical CPUs (and RAM) is the targeted benifit.

 

Thinking broadly, a model of how to configure resource optimisations will emerge, sort of "good practice", and details of this could vary for different OS types / playback software / device drivers depending on peoples software selections and system configurations. I think tools like process Lasoo could template this for commonly used setups, but as you say there's certainly some work here to understand all this.

 

I certainly recognose your points about the difficulty of comparison, this is far from plug and play stuff, many many vairiables involved :-). Usefull comparisons could be made however but only with great care. This alone would be quite some project in its own right and not really productive I would say.

 

The real purpose of my question was to understand what people see as the key  areas of attack on sound quality using dual CPUs and this helps, thanks for the answer.

 

 

OAudio

[bit01]

10 hours ago, Peter Avgeris said:

Yes. The purpose is more or less as you write. But here it seems that something new, that might prove as equally interesting in the (near) future, has come to light. How about a single cpu system with this chipset? 

 

As I informed you, a dual cpu MoBo is on its way to my place. I will have the chance of evaluating single vs dual cpu performance, with the Xeon CPUs of Taiko Audio's machine. Something deep inside my mind tells me that probably this specific motherboard with C621 chipset may perform better with single CPU. 

 

Either way, this does not affect the project, or may affect it with minimal impact. That means the main purpose of this effort is to house a machine that a lot of DIYers and enthusiasts here seem to like a lot. 

 

BUT:

Here comes the next step. As soon as this will be done, why not to be able to make something that will be compatible to 2 or 3 other combinations that seem to be of equal interest? For example, a single CPU ASUS 3647 MoBo, another one with the modern W Xeons, etc? 

 

I see that many are, or possibly would be, interested in full height chassis. This is nothing that difficult. Stacking two heat sinks is out of question for my standards. As soon as something will be done from the beginning, why not done properly? 

 

We should not worry of the possibility that this thread might go off track. We are all on track. This is why everybody expresses his own opinion. We need to include several options. And end up with a solution that could serve various options. 

 

Regarding the dual H5 case stack - I am assuming that the highlighted text in bold above refers to their heat sinks (HS) one sitting above the other. This does not have to be as bad as it looks at first glance. Of course if you are talking aesthetics- then perhaps end of the road. But  if functionality, then my opinion is that this can be accommodated within the design. If the board is in the bottom case, the top could have much less use of its HS area, assuming the DC-ATX converter and perhaps a couple of other DC regulators for CPUs and PCIe cards are used, with the source (or raw) DC supply external. For such use the two cases are/can be connected via the side walls such that more heat conducts up the walls effectively making the lower and upper HS an elongated one. Sure there will be some additional convection air drag flowing though the two sets of fins but this could be greatly offset by the more efficient conduction and resulting larger fin transfer area. Of interest to me at least, would be the ability to use supporting brackets off the sides of the upper case to mount DC regulators closer to the CPU and other 'clean power' accessories  with shorter cables.

In any case (😵) this might be something many here have less interest in. Perhaps the primary focus should be on fabricating  the cooling system for the majority choice board/CPU  where the precision expertise/ability you kindly offer is requisite and very much appreciated.

[LTG2010]

13 hours ago, Peter Avgeris said:

? For example, a single CPU ASUS 3647 MoBo, another one with the modern W Xeons, etc? 

There is a single CPU version of this board.

https://www.asus.com/uk/Commercial-Servers-Workstations/Pro-WS-C621-64L-SAGE/

Its supports both Xeon Scalable and W3200 processors.

So HQPlayer users can use it with an 8 core 3.7ghz processor with 4.3ghz Turbo.

Dont see why the Dual board  does not support W3200 maybe it could do with a bios update.

[bobfa]

Is anyone thinking about putting Music Storage in the box?  What kind?  SSD? HD?

 

 

[billg]

I converted my music server pc (Lenovo Thinkcentre M92) to fanless operation. I love the passive cooling in my other audio pc (Streacom) but wanted to see whether I could make an workable solution for an standard desktop case. The Lenovo gives me full height for pcie cards and plenty of room inside. It sits horizontally and looks ok in my hifi rack. But I can't add copper pipes or amplifier style heatsinks unless I modify the case. 

 

I achieved fanless operation by 
1. replaced the psu with HD 400w dc-atx with an external ac-dc supply
2. replaced the cpu cooler & fan with a Dynatron fanless cooler
3. disconnected the remaining case fans
4. vented the top of the case above the cpu cooler. I needed to do this as there's very little convection cooling in the case when it sits horizontally with no fans running.

 

The 77w i5 cpu runs at 53-60 C.  I'm waiting for a 45w xeon cpu to arrive that should reduce this further.

 

I think the HDPlex cases would be improved by additional ventilation in the bottom and an (optional?) grill top, like many class-A amps. This would assist with cooling all components: mobo, ram, psu and hard drives.

 

The passive cooling could be made more flexible by 
- enabling 3rd party passive coolers to be attached to the cpu cooler mounting plate, such as the very efficient and compact Dynatrons 
- ability to piggy back additional sets of heat pipes so both sides of the case could be used to cool a single cpu.

 

[OAudio]

5 hours ago, bobfa said:

Is anyone thinking about putting Music Storage in the box?  What kind?  SSD? HD?

 

 

My c621 server has one SSD, it's an Intel 128GB so nothing exotic. The purpose is only to hold the OS and playback software. No music is stored in the server.

 

The disk can be turned of or physically removed from the machine after it has been booted from a RAM image.

This allows for some good insights on the impact of the disk on SQ.

 

Sound quality best first.

 

Disk removed from system booted from RAM

Disk in system booted from RAM

Disk in system booted of disk

 

Top line is very special SQ, but my c621 sounds so "real" that I don't get up to walk across the room to take it out most of the time and so listen disk in system booted from RAM  (line 2).

 

No dedicated power needed to the disk. My LPSU and DC ATX setup make the added complexity unnecessary.

 

OAudio.

 

Sorry miss read the question slightly. The notes above give a feel for the impact of an SSD in my c621. I have placed music storage in the system on SSD, Crucial 500gb just for testing reasons. It would not be my preferred playback (because with network storage and the configurations above SQ is clearly improved)  but music on the second disk still sounds good in absolute terms. If this were the only  config I used, I would consider better isolation of the power to the disk because disk is them in live use  whilst playback is taking place.

[Hauser]

Hi OAudio,

 

I've been trying to find a PCIE card that will allow external powering of the M2 NVME.  Is such a card available or is there a way to achieve this?

 

Martin.

[OAudio]

On 5/30/2020 at 3:30 PM, rickca said:

Can you please provide a link to the source of this information?  Thanks in advance.

Martin hi,

 

I used early Plextor M.2 SSDs for a while. They could be bought with the M.2 memory stick mounted to a full height PCIe card. The riser card looked easy to modify.

 

This is just a random PCIe SSD card selection (I haven't researched it) but if I were trying to do I might research a card like this to see if the go faster shroud can be removed. Applying power means cutting traces from the PCIe board and wiring in your own, I am sure if this is something you would be comfortable with.

 

https://www.goplextor.com/Product/Detail/M9P(Y)_Plus#/Spec

 

A riser board with a power socket would be helpful, but is not something I would normally look for as I tend to modify boards directly if needed.

 

Regards,

 

OAudio

[Tatomek7]

I see 3 areas to be covered with 2 CPU build ( except of the rest already raised) 

 

* LPSU – 2 CPU setup requires big LPSU. At the moment I do not know any commercially available built to cover at the right level this need. Nevertheless it shouldn’t be so difficult to complete it, but cost will be high. My recommendation is to include at least one oil capacitor in each rail.

 

* Software setup /  optimisation – what is the biggest issue for me. Without help/guideline I will not be able to  configure it properly – this is also one of the biggest areas for improvement. I didn’t find any information in the net.

 

* Temperature dispatch – 2 Xeons will produce a lot of heat. I already have the server based on x99 board and Xeon 105W TDP in HDPLex H5. Temperature is below 50C with 22C in the room. Every 1 Celsius up in the room gives round 2-3 Celsius temperature increase of the CPU. So I’m not sure if additional source of heat as DC/ATX converter is the best solution, if you opt for 2CPU in HDPlex H5. Above observations are with Euphony/Roon,  as it generates lower temperature vs Euphony Stylus.

 

Tom