Building a DIY Music Server with custom made parts

[Nenon]

Here is my wishlist:

1. Taller than the H5 case. 

2. Larger heatsink area (#1 would naturally make this happen).

3. Better quality heatsinks. Pure copper would be best. 

4. Thicker cooling pipes - 10mm would be great - with more contact surface to the heatsink. 

5. Utilize both heatsinks for the CPU cooling. 

6. Thicker panels than the HDPlex (top, bottom, and back) with better airflow design.

7. Design the entire case to act like one big heatsink. 

8. Space for the Hdplex 800W DC to DC ATX (#1 would help with that and we can mount it on the front panel).

9. Accommodate full size PCIe cards (#1 would help with that too). 

10. Include LGA 3647 square mounting mechanism and CPU cooling block (copper). 

[Nenon]

1 hour ago, Peter Avgeris said:

Regarding thicker panels, I think that will impose serious obstacles on cost for the entry-level machines. We don;t need to dig inside the pockets of the entry-level DIYers.

I mean 3mm instead of 2mm. The Hdplex panels are super thin, and I don't like that. 

[Nenon]

Some further thoughts.

 

If we want to use the current H5 case and do some mods to get a cost effective product - fine. I am not against that. I am okay to spend $1000 on a better chassis but that may not be the case for everyone. Plus, if a high quality chassis is designed from scratch and produced in very low quantities it would be more expensive than that.

 

I guess the idea is to use the current Hdplex H5 heatsinks.

19 hours ago, Peter Avgeris said:

The quality of the heat sinks is very good. Larry has done a great job on this, we all know that.

They are not that great, Peter. But I have high standards. I would love to see a better heatsink but not a deal breaker. 

Anyhow, let's assume we use the stock heatsinks and we just want to develop some accessories for the H5 case. How about those:

 

1. An accessory to stack two chassis on top of each other to make a double-height H5 case.
2.  LGA 3647 socket mounting, cooling block, etc. for square and long type. I need the square only. 
3. Cooling pipes for various configurations. Some examples:
   • One CPU / one heatsink.
   • One CPU / both heatsinks (left and and right).
   • Two CPUs / both heatsinks (left and and right).
   • And in the case of double height H5, my most desirable option would be: Two CPUs / four heatsinks.
   • Some people may want: One CPU / four heatsinks for a 100W+ TDP CPUs.
4. An attachment to the rear plate to support full height PCIe cards. I am sure this is simple to do. And it would be a must have for option #1 above. Here is how another company has done it (not suggesting we copy but just as an idea):

 

If the only goal is to design a heat sink for the LGA 3647 socket, I have already done that without any experience and does a pretty good job.

On 5/25/2020 at 1:03 PM, Nenon said:

Asus SAGE / dual Xeon CPU passive cooling

 

Below is what I did to passively cool the dual Intel Xeon Silver 4210 CPUs in the Asus SAGE motherboard. 

 

I could not find a solution to passively cool the Intel Xeon Silver 4210 CPUs. Streacom, HDPlex, and some of the other common passive computer chassis do not provide a solution for LGA3647 sockets. Also, most of them are limited to 65W TDP or 95W TDP. Cooling down two 85W TDP CPUs is quite challenging. Turemetal UP10 looks like a really nice case, but the ASUS Sage motherboard (12'' x 13'') does not fit inside according to their specs. And even if it could fit, the mounting on the LGA3647 sockets is very unique. You need very precise parts to be able to mount the CPU without damaging anything. 

 

The first thing I did to get started was to buy 2 x Noctua NH-D9 DX-3647 4U CPU coolers. Those are active CPU coolers, but I wanted to make sure everything was working properly. The motherboard posted, both CPU tested well, so I started looking for a way to do the passive cooling. 

 

The LGA3647 comes in two variations - narrow and square. The Asus SAGE motherboard uses the square version. After some research, ordering some parts, returning some, I decided to use the Dynatron B9 CPU cooler as a base. This is how it looks - top and bottom:

 

 

We don't need the fan, so that can be removed. But we need the mounting mechanism for the socket. After removing the fan, we end up with a heatsink that can be used as a base.

 

The surface area on those Xeon Silver CPUs is much larger than a typical consumer CPU such as Intel Core or AMD Ryzen. I would need two HDPlex passive cooling kits to cover one CPU. I ended up getting four HDPlex H5 chassis for this project. 

 

An explanation of the process with pictures follows below.

 

I started removing some of the material to make space for the HDPlex cooling kit.

 

Now we have enough space for the copper HDPlex cooling block.

 

We need the surface to be as smooth as possible. Sanded with 400 grit sandpaper, followed by 600 grit, 1000 grit, and 2000 grit. I used wet sandpaper from an auto parts store and some soap water. Here is the result.

 

I did a little more fine sanding and polishing to prepare the surface. It's now ready to install the 2 HDPlex copper blocks. They fit perfectly. My research time was well worth, and the Dynatron B9 looks like the perfect solution. 

 

The next big research was on thermal epoxy. I needed to glue the two HDPlex copper blocks to the B9 with glue that would transfer the heat from one material to another as efficiently as possible. I picked the MG Chemicals 834HTC-A High Thermal Conductivity Epoxy for that. 

 

Cleaned the surface with 90% alcohol, let it dry, and applied a thin layer of the epoxy. I used two heavy duty clamps and let the epoxy cure in my oven on a low temperature for a few hours. All done with that part. Here is the final result. 

 

I repeated the same process for the second CPU. With two in place, it's time to install them. 

 

Here comes the second problem. No passive cooled chassis is designed to cool two CPUs. The HDPlex H5 (and most others) has two heatsinks, and typically only one is actually used for CPU cooling. The idea is to use one heatsink for each CPU. In order to do that, I had to buy new cooling pipes, a pipe bending tool, and learn how to bend them. I had to do some reading on cooling pipes, learn how they work, learn about the different designs, different materials, etc. I did not know any of that stuff before this project. 

There are quite a few things to consider - the shape, the materials, the quality, how you bend them, etc. They are filled with liquid and you can't cut them. Also, you have to be careful not to crack them when you bend them. The bending radius can impact the performance. They come in different lengths and some are better quality than others. I liked the products a company called "Advanced Thermal Solutions" makes.

 

Bending pipes is a skill that I need to practice more. Here is my first attempt - looks ugly but it worked great.

 

The CPU on the top uses the stock HDPlex cooling pipes. The CPU on the bottom with the six longer ugly-bended pipes is what I did. 

To my surprise when I turned on the computer, I realized that the bottom CPU's temperature is lower than the top CPU. One was in the low 40's after a couple of days of playing music and the other was in the high 40's. That's degrees Celsius obviously. We have to be careful with a dual CPU configuration, because one CPU could be hotter because it is doing more than the other. I made sure that was not why the top CPU was a few degrees hotter. 

 

I decided to replace the stock HDPlex cooling pipes with new ones. I did much better job with the bending, but I don't have a picture handy. You will have to trust me on that one :). 

 

One problem with the HDPlex cooling kit is that the pipes are short and don't cover the entire cooling block. I'll refer to this post for more info / picture:

 

By replacing the stock cooling pipes I had the chance to use longer pipes and cover more surface. 

Not sure if the cooling pipes I used are better than the stock HDPlex or it was because they covered more surface area, but I saw about 7-8 degrees lower temperature with the new pipes. I am guessing it's both - better quality pipes and more surface area. 

In fact, now the top CPU is about 1-2 degrees cooler than the bottom CPU. 

 

The thermal epoxy also takes about a week to 10 days to settle completely. It gets more efficient over time. Overall quite happy with the result. CPUs stay in the 40's depending on room temperature. It is 84F degrees in Chicago today, and I saw them running as hot as 49C. I'll go deal with my A/C now that I am done with this post. 

*** with a little more creativity the same idea can be applied to other LGA 3647 based CPUs, but you would have to pick different part. 

 

But if we can increase the heat dissipation capabilities, make the case taller, add support for full height PCIe cards (quite important for me), I would be interested to participate. 

[Nenon]

A lot of speculations of what works and what does not. Having tested and retested some of the stuff multiple times, I disagree with quite a few things said here about what works better and what is worse. But I don't think that's the right thread for these discussions and don't really have the time to go into hot debates. I suggest we focus on how the Hdplex can be modded for more versatile DIY usage with some of the specific motherboards and CPUs mentioned here. It's obvious that @Peter Avgeris's intentions are not to design a new case from scratch. He seems open to that idea, but the topic here is about the Hdplex H5 case. 

 

Our common friend from Germany has shipped him his Asus Sage motherboard and dual CPU after discussing with me. Big thanks to him for that! He is also willing to deal with receiving any components from Peter and shipping outside of the EU (i.e. to the US for instance). Plus shipping from Germany to the US is not that expensive. 

 

Can we go back on track?

Peter - I had four suggestions given your feedback. Which ones do you think are doable? Appreciate your help with this.

On 5/28/2020 at 12:56 PM, Nenon said:

Some further thoughts.

 

If we want to use the current H5 case and do some mods to get a cost effective product - fine. I am not against that. I am okay to spend $1000 on a better chassis but that may not be the case for everyone. Plus, if a high quality chassis is designed from scratch and produced in very low quantities it would be more expensive than that.

 

I guess the idea is to use the current Hdplex H5 heatsinks.

They are not that great, Peter. But I have high standards. I would love to see a better heatsink but not a deal breaker. 

Anyhow, let's assume we use the stock heatsinks and we just want to develop some accessories for the H5 case. How about those:

 

1. An accessory to stack two chassis on top of each other to make a double-height H5 case.
2.  LGA 3647 socket mounting, cooling block, etc. for square and long type. I need the square only. 
3. Cooling pipes for various configurations. Some examples:
   • One CPU / one heatsink.
   • One CPU / both heatsinks (left and and right).
   • Two CPUs / both heatsinks (left and and right).
   • And in the case of double height H5, my most desirable option would be: Two CPUs / four heatsinks.
   • Some people may want: One CPU / four heatsinks for a 100W+ TDP CPUs.
4. An attachment to the rear plate to support full height PCIe cards. I am sure this is simple to do. And it would be a must have for option #1 above. Here is how another company has done it (not suggesting we copy but just as an idea):

 

If the only goal is to design a heat sink for the LGA 3647 socket, I have already done that without any experience and does a pretty good job.

*** with a little more creativity the same idea can be applied to other LGA 3647 based CPUs, but you would have to pick different part. 

 

But if we can increase the heat dissipation capabilities, make the case taller, add support for full height PCIe cards (quite important for me), I would be interested to participate. 

 

Thank you!

[Nenon]

1 hour ago, Peter Avgeris said:

Yes! I am open to do a full-height version, it is not something that difficult. One CPU can connect to the right side and the other CPU to the other side, there is plenty of free space for copper heat pipes for the second CPU. HDPlex H5 chassis is 100% perfect for ASUS C621 SAGE MoBo equipped with 2x CPUs up to 95W each one. I think that it is reasonable to focus on this project first. It is doable, you won't need to break the bank, it is nice 'n cozy, low-profile height. Now, if you want to connect HDPlex 800w P/S unit, then, OK, do something externally, Larry has the ATX chassis sockets. I think that this needs to be No.1 priority.

Yes, shipping to and from Germany is nothing important. Shipping to and from USA is troublesome and very problematic. At least we have this alternative that works fine.

All your suggestions seem to be absolutely doable. The one that changes things dramatically is the full height, because I need to order Junior (https://www.kuehlkoerper.de/en/) or Fischer (https://www.fischerelektronik.de/) Heat Sinks. These factories have tremendous support and can do all the grooves and whole metal work in general, threads opening, etc on the sinks in order to accommodate copper pipes of required diameter, back plates, front plate. Just name it and you have it, I explained you from the beginning this is sooo easy for me to do. The most difficult aspect of all (trust me, I have big experience in collaborating with people!) is to join different people's opinion and try to mix the ingredients so as to end up with the most convenient, beautiful and cost effective solution for all of us.

 

How about the idea of bolting together two H5 heatsinks on top of each other? Wouldn't that be easier and cheaper? 

[Nenon]

18 minutes ago, adamaley said:

I found a resourceful way to attach the HDPLEX 800W DC-ATX converter to the base of the H5 case without having to drill holes into it. I used 3M double sided tape to attach it. I bring this up because if finding space for it may be a bottleneck, it could be attached to the interior of the faceplate, for example, as long as it has a close enough reach to the ATX connector on the motherboard itself. This is one requirement that shouldn't be a show stopper

 

The problem is there is no space for the 800W DC-ATX when you install the Asus Sage motherboard. 

At one point during working on my prototype Asus Sage I attached it with standoffs on the outside of the heatsink (allowing some distance for proper heat dissipation). 

 

A custom made ATX cable can go through the power button hole you see in the bottom of the picture. It was just a quick thing to get it going, not something I kept permanently, but I thought I would share as it might be an easy solution for somebody here. 

[Nenon]

31 minutes ago, Peter Avgeris said:

As I informed you, a dual cpu MoBo is on its way to my place. I will have the chance of evaluating single vs dual cpu performance, with the Xeon CPUs of Taiko Audio's machine. Something deep inside my mind tells me that probably this specific motherboard with C621 chipset may perform better with single CPU. 

 

To do a proper evaluation of this, I suggest you dedicate at least 3 months (suggest 6 months) to do this and only this. A digital source is a complex chain where everything interracts together. My dual CPU source sounds way much better now than it did 2 months ago and will sound even better 3 months from now. This is a very long process - I have been tweaking power supplies, trying different operating systems, different players, different settings, different drivers, different BIOS settings, different affinities, different priorities, different RAM modules, different Optane cards, different NVME storage, different BIOS versions, etc. etc. The list goes on and on. With over 1000 different parameters, you make a change to one of them and you have to revise everything all over again. 

The benefit from a dual CPU is that you can isolate services, processes to its own CPU. Simple example - network activity always impacts the sound quality while you are playing, no matter what server ot hardware you are using - with a dual CPU you can isolate certain activity away from the activities directly involved in music playing.

I was not planning to comment on anything that is not related to the chassis customizations but just wanted to make this clear. Comparing digital sources is not like comparing analog devices. You can plug one amp to your system and easily compare to another. Yes, there are a few variables - you can do tube rolling, change vibration controling devices, power cords, interconnects, etc. but you pretty much know right away how the two compare. Comparing a motherboard with a single CPU and a motherboard with dual CPUs is a completely different animal. Just installing your favorite OS and your favorite player tells pretty much nothing. 

[Nenon]

27 minutes ago, Nsxturbo said:

FYI, I’m using the Asus Hyper M.2 X16 V2 with four Intel 665 M.2 drives in RAID 0 with Intel’s VROC on processor #2’s PCIe X16 slot of my WS 621E Sage MB, (copying Taiko’s Extreme usage of this setup😉). It is by far the best local storage setup I’ve heard and better than NAS and as good as RAM drive.

+1 from me on that one!

[Nenon]

15 minutes ago, Nsxturbo said:

I’m using this right now with the Hyper X card: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiM-ZuOgeLpAhXQnuAKHYBgBqkQFjABegQIBhAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thermaltakeusa.com%2Fgaming-pci-e-3-0-x16-riser-cable.html&usg=AOvVaw0lEx4Hjb7HnLPvacCO-34U

But the card is sitting outside of the open topped HDPLEX H5 case. I really think it would be to tight and add to the overall thermal load inside a finished H5. I really think a full-height case with it directly in the PCI slot is preferable. 

Yeah, using riser cables is far less than optimal. Hopefully we'll have a full height case solution soon, either here or on the other thread. 

BTW, I don't think Taiko is using VROC. Never seen a VROC hardware key inside the Extreme. Have you? 

[Nenon]

55 minutes ago, Peter Avgeris said:

Judging from your comments, I assume that we need to go for full height and not for the plain 'n good solution with HDPlex H5 chassis.

 

I think that most will agree here, right?

+1

 

56 minutes ago, Peter Avgeris said:

I will have plenty of time to measure the current that these processors will draw, along with the current that the motherboard will require.

Not sure how this is relevant to the chassis, but you are looking at around 150-200W (closer to 150W here) total depending on how you use the two CPUs. In my case, its drawing around 6-6.5A continuous for the CPUs EPS connector. Around 40W for the motherboard. And my LPS dissipates a double digit number of Watts in heat. 

I hate giving such numbers, because from an engineering point view they are never accurate. If you look at the CPU current draw at a millisecond or nanosecond level, you will find it very bursty - and easily tripling the numbers above. That's why a more powerful power supply helps. Also, fill this motherboard with PCIe cards and memory, configure for low latency / high computation, and run some complex calculations (i.e. HQP) and watch it easily draw 350W-400W. 

 

 

[Nenon]

18 hours ago, RickyV said:

Wondering what would happen if you put 2 regulators in series 🤪

 

I haven't tried that for two reasons.

1. Sean told me he has tried that and while the double regulation makes a significant difference vs. single regulation, he said that multiple double regulated regulators in series did not make an audible difference. I wanted to try that too and evaluate in my system, because I may hear something different, but the comment from Sean decreased the priority of that test (and my desire to perform such test) to very low. 

2. Heat dissipation might be a problem. A 6-7V drop at let's say 3A is already about 20W of heat that needs dissipation. Doubling that is not fun.  

Having said that, I don't know the details of where and how multiple regulators in series have been tried. Sean encouraged me to try it. So, I think it is worth a go. Please let us know @RickyV.

 

BTW, it's interesting how much better the LPS1.2 becomes when fed by a DC3 regulators. Give that a try if you can. 

 

[Nenon]

9 hours ago, matthias said:

Did someone compare SQ of DC3 to DC4 modules?

Thanks

 

Matt

 

I have. The DC4 is better. It makes pretty good difference in my system. I would recommend it to power up a USB card or whatever the most sensitive (on DC power) component you have in your system. A hybrid LPS with DC3 regulators for the HDPlex DC-ATX and JCAT NIC and a DC4 for the USB card would be a very good compromise to keep the cost lower and boost up the performance. 

[Nenon]

12 minutes ago, Nsxturbo said:

For the last week I haven’t been able to reach Sean Jacobs website.

this is the error I get:

404. That’s an error.

The requested URL was not found on this server. That’s all we know.

Is anyone else having the same issue? or have an alternate method of reaching him?

I’m itching to build a new power supply for my Chord Dave.

 

Here is Sean's out of office email reply I received:

Quote

Hello, thank you for your enquiry. I am currently away from work until 8th September and it is unlikely that I will have any access to email or phone. I will be able reply to any emails ASAP upon my return.

 

Also please note that i've attempted to update my website just before my break (Google Sites is updating), and it is not currently live. I will hopefully be able to make it live at the old web address after my return, IT issues permitting!

 

Kind Regards,
-Sean

 

 

13 minutes ago, Nsxturbo said:

BTW, does anyone know the current requirements for the +15, -15v and the separate 5v for the Dave?

The Dave consumes very little power. I believe 1.5A per rail is plenty but double check with Sean next week. 

I will know more in a couple of weeks when I have a Dave in my hands. 

[Nenon]

On 5/30/2020 at 3:49 PM, OAudio said:

I was taking a moment to step back though earlier to think about the 2 CPU direction. It is quite complex and expensive in relative terms to a single CPU c621 build. I was trying to fathom why go that route ?

 

Is it following the established Sage build taken by Taiko with the Extreme server so likely to assure a good SQ outcome, this could be a reason in and of itself. Are there any known "USPs" or theories that people are driving to realise with the Sage dual 2 CPU route ?

 

A few things circulating in my mind comparing with a single processor c621 build.

Cost, motherboard, 2* CPUs, 12* Memory DIMMs

More demanding on PSU requirements

Needs PCIe cards for network and USB interfacing to perform

Use of NUMA routing for cross CPU1 acceding CPU2s memory (slower than direct CPU to Memory access)

Cooling

Unusual form factor to accommodate

 

The main reason for dual processors that I am coming up with is: there may be a possibility to allocate end point and music server software processes (control and file storage tasks) to separate physical processors. Might by good if the music server streams files to the end point during playback maybe.

 

I don't have any experience of Dual CPU builds and why you would do them so thanks for any thoughts / experiences.

 

@OAudio - it seems like you have gone a long way with your server development. I was wondering if we can circle back to this - do you still see no good enough reasons (not exactly what you said of course) to go with dual CPUs? Did you go with two CPUs or just one? I think it's an interesting topic for a lot of people here and you must have done quite a bit of testing by now.