JRiver DSP over DLNA

[Mike Rubin]

I asked about this at the JRiver support forum, but I don't think I made myself clear enough there to get an answer that responded to what I tried to ask.

 

I like the way that Roon and Audirvana can convert to DSD 256 everything I stream from a NAS to a Rendu, but I don't like Roon's interface enough to pay $120 a year for it and Audirvana doesn't pretend to be much of a file manager.  I like JRiver as both a manager and a player over DLNA and am pretty happy with it, but I can't figure out if there is a way to have JRiver convert all streamed playback to DSD256 the way that the other two players can.  (I know it can someone using an ASIO driver, but I am using only an Ethernet connection out of the Windows 10 computer on which JRiver is installed.)

 

I have tried setting up a DLNA server in JRiver that uses DSP Studio to fix the output format.  The option to fix the format to 4xDSD is not grayed out in DSP Studio, so I selected it.  I can get music to play (although native DSD files won't), but my DAC's display makes clear there's no format conversion happening.

 

Based on what I gleaned from the JRiver forum, I gathered that, even JRiver doesn't gray out the DSD outputs in DSP Studio, you can't actually use those options if you select DSP Studio as the basis for your DLNA server's output.  

 

So, just double checking here: can any of you use JRiver to stream files converted to DSD256 to a Rendu or similar device over DLNA?

[Cebolla]

JRiver Media Center can only stream its DSP Studio's DSD output as DoP over the network to a UPnP/DLNA renderer, such as the Rendu in DLNA output (3a) mode. My version of JRiver (MC18) is limited to DSD128 as DoP. It appears to have a bug in it that allows you to select native DSD256 output in the DSP Studio as well as other native DSD resolutions and they should be grayed out as only the DoP options should be available when DSP Studio is configured for one of JRiver's DLNA servers:

 

 

Is it the same for your version of JRiver?

[jcbenten]

I have JR23 and I think in the past I have on-the-fly converted to DSD256 to iFi, SMSL, and Topping (see signature) but it was via USB & ASIO.  I was not attempting any DSP.  I believe it was Native.  I will try and replicate in the next day or two to verify unless someone beats me to it.  But I am not sure how to test over network with my setup...I do not know if my Oppo or SBT will pass a DSD256 file...have to check.

 

 

 

 

[Cebolla]

The first thing you need to check as far as the OP is concerned is whether JR23's DSP studio has a 4xDSD in DoP format option. If not then DSD256 output from the DSP Studio over DLNA is a no go and there's nothing to test with anyway.

[Mike Rubin]

3 hours ago, Cebolla said:

JRiver Media Center can only stream its DSP Studio's DSD output as DoP over the network to a UPnP/DLNA renderer, such as the Rendu in DLNA output (3a) mode. My version of JRiver (MC18) is limited to DSD128 as DoP. It appears to have a bug in it that allows you to select native DSD256 output in the DSP Studio as well as other native DSD resolutions and they should be grayed out as only the DoP options should be available when DSP Studio is configured for one of JRiver's DLNA servers:

 

 

Is it the same for your version of JRiver?

Thanks.  Mine is MC 26 and will do 4x over DoP, but the native DSD options are the same.  As I would have to run over DoP to upsample, I have continued to just use native format to stream DSD. 

[Mike Rubin]

2 hours ago, jcbenten said:

I have JR23 and I think in the past I have on-the-fly converted to DSD256 to iFi, SMSL, and Topping (see signature) but it was via USB & ASIO.  I was not attempting any DSP.  I believe it was Native.  I will try and replicate in the next day or two to verify unless someone beats me to it.  But I am not sure how to test over network with my setup...I do not know if my Oppo or SBT will pass a DSD256 file...have to check.

 

 

 

 

Thanks. 

 

Yes, when I had my DAC connected to the computer via USB and ASIO, all of the DSP options were available to me. 

 

My desktop setup is configured so that I could easily take a microrendu out of the equation and just run upsampled to the DAC.  Unfortunately, my main system requires DLNA or something like Roon RAAT that uses a DLNA background.  I have been using JRiver as the server, but, with Audirvana and Roon, I can do the file conversion easily and it sounds great with either, but I don't enjoy the Roon interface and expense and Audirvana can be quirky. 

[Mike Rubin]

1 hour ago, Cebolla said:

The first thing you need to check as far as the OP is concerned is whether JR23's DSP studio has a 4xDSD in DoP format option. If not then DSD256 output from the DSP Studio over DLNA is a no go and there's nothing to test with anyway.

I should have been clearer in the OP.  I want the conversion to be to native DSD.

 

DoP defeats the purpose of the conversion for two reasons. 

 

First, my DAC's (Topping D90 and Wyred4Sound) both have flagship chips optimized for native DSD.

 

Second, I get native DSD to play as native DSD right now on JRiver simply by retaining the original file format.  Converting to DoP would cause my many DSD files to stream as PCM. 

[wklie]

Several years ago the DSP Studio resampling features were not applicable to UPnP playback, as they were meant for local (e.g. USB DAC or computer output) playback only.  You could select it, but it would not be active for UPnP (to Lumin in my case).

 

If this has become different, I'm not aware of it.  I don't think this feature has become available, otherwise the OP would not have created this thread.

 

Since Lumin cannot internally upsample to DSD512 (only to DSD128), I'd like to see software doing that to stream to a Lumin.  Roon and Audirvana do.  I have been waiting for JRiver to add that.

[stefano_mbp]

It seems it it not possible (yet?) to upsample to dsd with dlna JRiver.

But the answer seems .... very strange.....

“You can't convert TO DSD, that's not a streamable format”

.... if I can stream original dsd to dlna renderer why shouldn’t be possible to upsample to dsd and then stream the result to dlna renderer?

Not clear at all for me .....

 

[Cebolla]

4 hours ago, wklie said:

Several years ago the DSP Studio resampling features were not applicable to UPnP playback, as they were meant for local (e.g. USB DAC or computer output) playback only.  You could select it, but it would not be active for UPnP (to Lumin in my case).

 

If this has become different, I'm not aware of it.  I don't think this feature has become available, otherwise the OP would not have created this thread.

 

Since Lumin cannot internally upsample to DSD512 (only to DSD128), I'd like to see software doing that to stream to a Lumin.  Roon and Audirvana do.  I have been waiting for JRiver to add that.

 

I've just downloaded the trial version of JRiver Media Center v26 and can confirm that the DSP Studio's DSD upsampling features do not work for UPnP/DLNA streaming. The DSP settings are enabled so you are able to select them, but they have no affect.

[Cebolla]

1 hour ago, stefano_mbp said:

But the answer seems .... very strange.....

“You can't convert TO DSD, that's not a streamable format”

.... if I can stream original dsd to dlna renderer why shouldn’t be possible to upsample to dsd and then stream the result to dlna renderer?

 

You are forgetting and/or misunderstanding that UPnP/DLNA renderers do not support the network streaming of raw DSD audio signals and (some) support only the streaming DSD DSF or DFF files. However, the majority of UPnP/DLNA renderers do support the streaming of raw 16-bit LPCM (aka L16) and some support the streaming of raw 24-bit LPCM (aka L24).

 

So the raw DSD audio signal output from JRiver's DSP Studio has to be packaged into:

either one of the (DSF or DFF) DSD audio file formats;

or DoP as raw 24-bit LPCM;

or DoP packaged in a lossless LPCM file format, so WAV, FLAC, etc.

 

It is the packaging part that is missing.

[stefano_mbp]

3 minutes ago, Cebolla said:

It is the packaging part that is missing

Thank you for clarifying the concept.

But still remain “strange” that men at JRiver want to ignore something already available in Audirvana and Roon (for example)

[Cebolla]

Yes, agreed. Plus, if a feature is not supported it should at least be disabled if not removed altogether to avoid any confusion.

 

Oh and I also agree that women at JRiver would likely not be so ignorant. 🙂

[Mike Rubin]

We seem to be in agreement here:. Roon and Audirvana can do it, but not JRiver.  

 

Damned shame, because I prefer it in so many ways.

[Kal Rubinson]

13 hours ago, wklie said:

Several years ago the DSP Studio resampling features were not applicable to UPnP playback, as they were meant for local (e.g. USB DAC or computer output) playback only.  You could select it, but it would not be active for UPnP (to Lumin in my case).

 

If this has become different, I'm not aware of it.  I don't think this feature has become available, otherwise the OP would not have created this thread.

It has changed and there is a separate DSP Studio under Advanced Options for DLNA.  Of course, it does not support DSD since all DSP in JRiver is PCM-based.

[wklie]

5 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

It has changed and there is a separate DSP Studio under Advanced Options for DLNA.  Of course, it does not support DSD since all DSP in JRiver is PCM-based.

 

Then I need to check it out to see what it can do (some day).  Thanks.