Article: Reality Quest: Going to Extremes with the Taiko Audio SGM Extreme (Part 5 of 5)

[vortecjr]

We have been developing a new board that can transmit i2s, SPDIF, or AES/EBU via fiber optic between a source and a destination. These boards are transmit and receive all in one and are bi-directional for signal/clocking distribution. There is no practical use right now for the tech except in the DIY world, but a manufacturer that builds a source and a DAC could easily adopt the isolation scheme which would provide 100% galvanic isolation in a very clean way. I have no tissue working with Taiko Audio or any other manufacturer to help them implement this into their components.       

[R1200CL]

13 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

We have been developing a new board that can transmit i2s, SPDIF, or AES/EBU via fiber optic between a source and a destination. These boards are transmit and receive all in one and are bi-directional for signal/clocking distribution. There is no practical use right now for the tech except in the DIY world, but a manufacturer that builds a source and a DAC could easily adopt the isolation scheme which would provide 100% galvanic isolation in a very clean way. I have no tissue working with Taiko Audio or any other manufacturer to help them implement this into their components.       

optical Rendu with fiber out to a optic SPDIF converter ? Yes please 😀

[Raimund Heubel]

17 hours ago, bbosler said:

Raimund, I was accused of beating a dead horse earlier in this thread, and with all due respect, you have beaten this optical thing and beaten it repeatedly. You have a very unusual DAC that does not have a standard USB input. USB is the current standard. Complaining over and over that the Extreme is incompatible with a DAC that is highly unusual is not going to change that. It won't work for you. We get it. What do you hope to accomplish by going over it again and again?

You can call it ‘dead horse‘, I call it ‘challenge the status quo‘, especially applicable to the end-game server the Extreme wants to be seen as.

 

BR,

Raimund

[Raimund Heubel]

17 hours ago, matthias said:

 

Raimund,

 

because both copper ethernet and FO ethernet inputs are standard inputs in 2020 for servers like USB is THE standard output.

 

I can not see at all a standard for an optical USB output.

 

Even your favourite DAC manufacturer moved on from a complicated three fiber extra box concept to a better solution which you explained in post #120.

 

Matt

I am not necessarily looking for a new standard here but of course like the idea if OEMs could agree on such an output format vs. the inferior copper USB.

Manufacturers of DACs want their products to be compatible to a variety of formats, artistic fidelity is for sure no exception here, still the implementation of the copper USB input in their DACs respective output in their streamers/servers is for good reasons much different vs. most other OEMs targetting at perfect isolation and re-clocking.

 

BR,

Raimund

[Raimund Heubel]

13 hours ago, vortecjr said:

We have been developing a new board that can transmit i2s, SPDIF, or AES/EBU via fiber optic between a source and a destination. These boards are transmit and receive all in one and are bi-directional for signal/clocking distribution. There is no practical use right now for the tech except in the DIY world, but a manufacturer that builds a source and a DAC could easily adopt the isolation scheme which would provide 100% galvanic isolation in a very clean way. I have no tissue working with Taiko Audio or any other manufacturer to help them implement this into their components.       

I think this is a great idea. I am sure the Extreme is a custom build device why not let each individual customer decide which output modules/formats he/she wants to have implemented in the server? If one can ask for a certain Music Server software the Extreme shall run on why not give the individual customer the choice for certain hardware options as well?

 

BR,

Raimund 

[bbosler]

3 hours ago, Raimund Heubel said:

I am not necessarily looking for a new standard here but of course like the idea if OEMs could agree on such an output format vs. the inferior copper USB.

 

2 hours ago, Raimund Heubel said:

I am sure the Extreme is a custom build device why not let each individual customer decide which output modules/formats he/she wants to have implemented in the server? If one can ask for a certain Music Server software the Extreme shall run on why not give the individual customer the choice for certain hardware options as well?

 

3 hours ago, Raimund Heubel said:

I call it ‘challenge the status quo‘, especially applicable to the end-game server the Extreme wants to be seen as.

 

 

saying something a few times is making a point. Saying it over and over and over and over like you are doing is 

 

[matthias]

3 hours ago, Raimund Heubel said:

I am sure the Extreme is a custom build device why not let each individual customer decide which output modules/formats he/she wants to have implemented in the server?

 

The Extreme offers many output options:

 

External connections consist of 5 USB ports, 2 copper Rj45 ethernet ports, 1 fiber SFP open slot ethernet port, 1 VGA port. SPDIF, AES/EBU single, dual or quad wire optionally available.

 

Just for clarification:

According to your signature you use a common USB cable between your server and your artistic fidelity devices, the same you could do with the Extreme.

 

Matt

 

 

[vortecjr]

20 hours ago, Raimund Heubel said:

I think this is a great idea. I am sure the Extreme is a custom build device why not let each individual customer decide which output modules/formats he/she wants to have implemented in the server? If one can ask for a certain Music Server software the Extreme shall run on why not give the individual customer the choice for certain hardware options as well?

 

BR,

Raimund 

You can decide on the output format (i2s, SPDIF, or AES/EBU) you want. These boards just transmit the signals from point A to point B via fiber optic.   

[Raimund Heubel]

On 5/28/2020 at 8:01 PM, matthias said:

Just for clarification:

According to your signature you use a common USB cable between your server and your artistic fidelity devices, the same you could do with the Extreme.

 

 

Matthias,

 

no, in my main (living room) system I am not using any copper USB cable anymore. My artistic fidelity arfi-stream xto streamer is connected via RJ45 ethernet copper cable to my Mac mini server one floor down from my living room. The streamer puts out the digital audio signal via fibre optical cables to the artistic fidelity afis isolator switch. The afis connects via RJ45 ethernet copper cable to the artistic fidelity dac 2 DAC.

 

BR,

Raimund

[matthias]

On 5/26/2020 at 5:25 PM, matthias said:

 

Please have a look at

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-150#post-631854

 

and

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/58164-building-a-diy-music-server/page/14/?tab=comments#comment-1050842

 

and the following posts.

 

Matt

 

@vortecjr

@skatbelt

 

BR

 

Matt

[bbosler]

My Chord Dave and M Scaler are here... after a few days to dial things in..... wow.

Hooked DAVE direct to my horns... wow

 

an incredible level of detail with no glare or harshness.. smoooooth.. Much better than the DCS Rossini, and the Rossini was wonderful..  That may be because with the Rossini I had interconnects and an amplifier, it may be that the DAVE volume control is just better than the DCS volume control... or the DAVE is just a better DAC to my ear ...... we'll never know. I also like that I don't have the various filters and MAPs and external clocks with the Rossini to concern myself with 

 

Next up will try

• linear DC supply for the DAVE after I void the warranty by opening it up
• Zenith MK3 as server instead of Mac Mini 2018
• Opto-DX to connect scaler to DAVE instead of direct with BNC
  • https://audiowise-canada.myshopify.com/products/dx-optical-isolation-kit
• SCR-DX with HQplayer instead of M Scaler
  • https://audiowise-canada.myshopify.com/products/src-dx-usb-to-dual-spdif-interface

 

I may have to keep the scaler since it also fits into my vinyl system as I don't think Pure Vinyl will recognize HQplayer as a playback device like Roon will

• ChannelD LinoC phono pre running without RIAA to 
• Antelope Eclipse to do A to D  to 
• Mac Mini running Pure Vinyl for RIAA correction back to
• Eclipse 192 SpDIF out to scaler

 

 

 

 

[bbosler]

In case anybody is still paying attention, I pulled the switcher and hooked my DAVE up to linear DC supplies. Don't tell Chord

 

A very profound change mostly for the better. More slam, more detail, more bass and more importantly more highly defined bass, easier to follow a bass line......, more , more, more. Which I'm still getting a handle on. Maybe too much more? I don't think so but I do think I am on the very hairy edge where the quality of the power supply is EXTREMELY important.

 

I was reading a thread over on another site that shall go nameless but purports to be "scientific." One of the senior members was dismissing DC supplies and claiming if they made a difference that the circuit being powered by them was somehow inadequate or poorly designed. I'll be nice and just say that senior member is blathering idiot in the throes of scientific denial and leave it at that. 

 

Currently a dual output Keces for the plus/minus 15V which I think the most important as it runs the analog stages and a generic eBay supply for the 5V. So now we start the slippery slide down the rabbit hole of various linear DC supplies.

 

and so it goes.. .. Ray, thanks again for the ideas

[ray-dude]

I think you'll be shocked at how much tension goes away with a quality supply on the 5V (RF is a bugger).  An alternative is to use the stock DAVE SMPS for the 5V and your Keces for the +-15V.  The stock supply is quite good, but a Sean Jacobs or Paul Hynes is a LOT better.

[RickyV]

On 5/31/2020 at 10:17 PM, bbosler said:

Much better than the DCS Rossini,

oh my that is some statement.

[bbosler]

3 minutes ago, RickyV said:

oh my that is some statement.

 

Of course "much" is relative, but after hearing them both extensively in my system it is no contest.... for me. 

 

Factor in that the Rossini/clock combo is about twice as much retail, and I sold the DCS combo used for enough to pay for a new DAVE and M Scaler and pocket about $8K...  I am a happy camper.

 

What are your experiences?

 

 

[bbosler]

Any thoughts on a Teddy Pardo supplies? He can build me one with the 3 separate rails I need for the DAVE plus 12V for the Opto-DX receiver in one box

[avagadro]

I'm so impressed by the use of the Chord Dave as your power section. What sort of metric/spec are you looking for in the RCA output to decide if it's capable of running ultra efficient speakers? Also, is there any individual adjustment (cutoff freq) able to be made in the Dave between RCA and XLR outputs? ...I guess I'm asking if it can function as an active crossover

 

The Voxativ 9.87 has been a dream system of mine since I heard it at a show a few years ago. I've modeled my own system in it's spirit, albeit at a much lower level, with Klipsch Heresy's sitting atop REL T9i's. I would love to explore an alternative to my 3W SET tube monoblocks

[bbosler]

No, the Dave can't be used as a crossover, but you can put a low pass filter on the XLR outputs which is effectively what Ray has with his active woofers.

 

The spec you are looking for is very low output impedance (Zout) and enough voltage to get the power you need. Stereophile measure the output voltage and Zout of the RCA and headphone jacks to be the same so I assume they are the same output stage. With output voltage max of around 6V at +3 dB it should be able to develop about 4.5 watts into an 8 ohm load and half that into 16 ohms assuming it can deliver enough current. It will get close as they measured a Zout of .5 ohm so it won't make quite 4.5 watts but plenty  for my horns. The Zout from the XLR was measured at 66 ohms. Fine into a power amp or preamp but too high to use to drive speakers. 

 

So you will be looking for a DAC that has a high quality volume control with a headphone output with enough oomph to drive the speakers. I would think any headphone amp that is happy with 8 ohm headphones is a candidate. The DAVE volume control is also exceptional since it works after the signal is upsampled to a very high rate which gives them a lot of room to work with before losing resolution like you do with digital volume controls at lower rates. 

 

I tried this with the headphone out of my Antelope Eclipse 384 and it worked very well.  Well enough I sold a DCS Rossini  intending to stick with the Eclipse until I saw this article about the DAVE. Pro Audio interfaces like this have very good DACs in them too so even though the DAVE is better, for the money the pro audio route is a very attractive alternative. The Antelope is unusual in that it has a volume control that works in the analog domain with relays switching resistors so no worries about resolution. 

 

 Have fun

 

[bbosler]

so here we are, debating on a Paul Hynes supply for the ±15VDC to the DAVE. It is over $1000 more than the Keces.. $1500 vs. $400

 

[ray-dude]

On 6/12/2020 at 2:15 PM, bbosler said:

so here we are, debating on a Paul Hynes supply for the ±15VDC to the DAVE. It is over $1000 more than the Keces.. $1500 vs. $400

 

 

What's to debate?

 

The speed and stability of the PH supplies is outstanding.  You should be able to hear it quite well on the analog outputs stage of DAVE.  I'm am (VERY) patiently waiting for my Paul Hynes SR7 to work its way to the front of the custom build queue, so I'm sticking with my Sean Jacobs DC3 supply for now, but I would love to hear a PH supply on the DAVE.

[ray-dude]

On 6/11/2020 at 7:13 PM, avagadro said:

I'm so impressed by the use of the Chord Dave as your power section. What sort of metric/spec are you looking for in the RCA output to decide if it's capable of running ultra efficient speakers? Also, is there any individual adjustment (cutoff freq) able to be made in the Dave between RCA and XLR outputs? ...I guess I'm asking if it can function as an active crossover

 

The Voxativ 9.87 has been a dream system of mine since I heard it at a show a few years ago. I've modeled my own system in it's spirit, albeit at a much lower level, with Klipsch Heresy's sitting atop REL T9i's. I would love to explore an alternative to my 3W SET tube monoblocks

 

I think it is inevitable that Rob Watts (designer of the DAVE) adds digital equalization to his DACs at some point, but alas, Chord DACs currently do not have this feature.  The full signal is sent from each output.  With the 9.87 Pi units, they have a natural fall off around 40Hz.  The Pi bass units have an active control for gain, low pass frequency, and phase (with a couple other things).  I tune these to blend with the natural response of the 4D drivers.  The good news is that there are no cross overs on the DAVE to 4D driver path (direct wire connection from DAVE to driver), which gives maximum transparency over nearly all the frequency range.

[bbosler]

1 hour ago, ray-dude said:

What's to debate?

 

The speed and stability of the PH supplies is outstanding.  You should be able to hear it quite well on the analog outputs stage of DAVE

 

 

I'm in the queue for a dual rail SR5-19S Turbo with estimated delivery in September. 

 

 

[ray-dude]

Good for you!  Can wait to hear what you hear (and hope it doesn't make too much more antsy for my SR7  )

[bernardl]

Thanks for this very informative and well written review.

 

I had considered the Extreme at some point, but I must confess that it being based on Windows 10 was enough to remove it from my list (together with it's weight, I see zero reason why it weighting 43kg instead of 20kg would deliver real value).

 

Many have compared in the past Win10 to dedicated Linux builds and the conclusion always was that Linux is superior due to it being more lean.

 

What is your view on this aspect?

 

Cheers,

Bernard

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, bernardl said:

Thanks for this very informative and well written review.

 

I had considered the Extreme at some point, but I must confess that it being based on Windows 10 was enough to remove it from my list (together with it's weight, I see zero reason why it weighting 43kg instead of 20kg would deliver real value).

 

Many have compared in the past Win10 to dedicated Linux builds and the conclusion always was that Linux is superior due to it being more lean.

 

What is your view on this aspect?

 

Cheers,

Bernard

 

 

Hi Bernard, I’m trying to follow your reasoning on this one with respect to weight. Can you help me a little bit?Do you move your music server to different locations often? In that case I can see weight being a factor.