Article: Reality Quest: Going to Extremes with the Taiko Audio SGM Extreme (Part 5 of 5)

[Raimund Heubel]

I am not talking about the indeed limiting Toslink optical but USB optical input. I am sorry if that was not clear from my previous post.

 

BR,

Raimund

[bbosler]

1 hour ago, Raimund Heubel said:

I am not talking about the indeed limiting Toslink optical but USB optical input.

 

I see, well that  is never going to happen so you might as well forget about it. I can't envision all of these companies getting together to establish the standards for yet another digital audio interface. Toslink is capable of going as high as you want if they would develop the right transmitters and receivers. Its not the connectors or the fiber. Since nobody has moved beyond where we are that tells me there isn't enough interest in optical.

[fas42]

Curious that people are so down on Toslink - first time I've used it, and so far it hasn't been a limit on the SQ... 

[bbosler]

6 hours ago, Raimund Heubel said:

I am not talking about the indeed limiting Toslink optical but USB optical input. I am sorry if that was not clear from my previous post.

 

here you go

 

https://audiowise-canada.myshopify.com/collections/more-stuff/products/opto-usb-optical-signal-isolation

 

 

[matthias]

10 hours ago, Raimund Heubel said:

Thanks, Matthias, this is a really interesting discussion which only came to light because of the radical approach ‘Taiko Audio’ took with the development and build of the SGM Extreme server.

Still I strongly believe there is even more potential for the combination of the stand-alone Extreme without endpoint and the downstream DAC if the Extreme had an optical USB-out and the DAC an optical USB-in as for example realized by the German company ‘artistic fidelity‘ in their line-up of server (streamers) and DAC combinations or in their ‘afi + USB‘ DDC.

Neither does the previously mentioned Monoprice SlimRun USB extension cable provide complete isolation - it converts an electric USB signal to an optical back to an electric signal - nor does the Dave or other high-end DACs usually have optical inputs. There is so much effort in the upstream digital signal path, yet in the Extreme itself but inconsequently not so much at the very end of the signal path when the digital data hit the input of the DAC to finally undergo its conversion into an analog signal. In my opinion this is a missed opportunity

 

Hi Raimund,

 

the Extreme was designed to provide the best USB output for virtually any USB-DAC on the market.

This would not be possible with an optical USB output.

 

I agree, the Monoprice SlimRun USB is for several reasons not a perfect solution.

 

IMO, the best device for optical USB transmission is the MSB Pro USB

 

https://www.msbtechnology.com/accessories/prousb/

 

but unfortunately limited for use with MSB DACs only.

 

Matt

 

PS: I do not know how the afi+USB works. There is no info about on their HP.

[Raimund Heubel]

Matthias,

 

you will find some info in this post from 2016(!), the ‘afi + usb‘ meanwhile is a legacy product artistic fidelity will only build on demand.
The optical connection between the artistic fidelity streamer/server and their DACs has been further enhanced and does not require three fibre optical cables anymore but just one.
Let me please re-iterate that I do very much like what the Taiko Extreme server does in the field of computer audio and many thanks to @ray-dude for this excellent review!
Still I think there is room for improvement in the connection to the downstream DAC as the leaving digital signal requires optimization before it hits the DAC‘s input.

 

BR,

Raimund

[Raimund Heubel]

57 minutes ago, matthias said:

IMO, the best device for optical USB transmission is the MSB Pro USB

 

https://www.msbtechnology.com/accessories/prousb/

 

but unfortunately limited for use with MSB DACs only.

I agree the MSB device comes close to what artistic fidelity perfected over the years in terms of computer noise isolation by the use of fibre optical cable connections between digital source and DAC.

@bboslerThe device from ‘Audiowise‘ is obviously targetting compatibility to any conventional USB-DAC but cannot provide the perfect isolation by converting the electrical USB-datastream to an optical and back to an eletrical signal again by adding noise and likely the embedded clock signal within the datastream. The only purpose of this device as I see it is to enable the digital source to be placed far away from the DAC but even in this case this will not help with HF/RF noise isolation.

 

BR,

Raimund

[matthias]

18 minutes ago, Raimund Heubel said:

Still I think there is room for improvement in the connection to the downstream DAC as the leaving digital signal requires optimization before it hits the DAC‘s input.

 

Raimund,

 

to provide this you need a closed system like artistic fidelity or to a lesser extent with the MSB Pro USB.

In the case of AF you have to buy server and DAC from the same company or you have to buy an MSB DAC.

AFAIK, Taiko Audio want to offer all High End DACs on the market the best quality for playback of local stored files and streaming from Qobuz and Tidal.

 

Matt

[The Computer Audiophile]

That MSB solution is interesting. It looks like a USB to Ethernet converter in a way. Too bad it only works with MSB DACs. 

[matthias]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Too bad it only works with MSB DACs. 

 

Exactly 😭

 

Matt

 

 

[Raimund Heubel]

I agree these are unique solutions with MSB and artistic fidelity nevertheless the USB optical connection for me is a very important feature I will not want to miss in any new streamer/server or DAC.

In the future it would ideally become one of the standard I/Os I‘d like to see in any of the high-end digital devices we are talking about here. It is for me the next logic and consistent step to perfect the digital audio signal on its way from source to analog conversion. 

 

BR,

Raimund

[The Computer Audiophile]

12 minutes ago, Raimund Heubel said:

I agree these are unique solutions with MSB and artistic fidelity nevertheless the USB optical connection for me is a very important feature I will not want to miss in any new streamer/server or DAC.

In the future it would ideally become one of the standard I/Os I‘d like to see in any of the high-end digital devices we are talking about here. It is for me the next logic and consistent step to perfect the digital audio signal on its way from source to analog conversion. 

 

BR,

Raimund

Some DACs like the Ayre QB-9 use optical isolation inside the chassis and require nothing external for isolation. 

[matthias]

33 minutes ago, Raimund Heubel said:

In the future it would ideally become one of the standard I/Os I‘d like to see in any of the high-end digital devices we are talking about here.

 

Emile from Taiko Audio mentioned that the two USB3.1 Gen2 outputs with 10Gbps are the best sounding ones.

USB4 with much higher speeds is upcoming. Do exist standards for optical USB transmission which are able to deliver these speed standards?

 

Matt

[bbosler]

5 hours ago, Raimund Heubel said:

cannot provide the perfect isolation by converting the electrical USB-datastream to an optical and back to an eletrical signal again by adding noise and likely the embedded clock signal within the datastream. The only purpose of this device as I see it is to enable the digital source to be placed far away from the DAC but even in this case this will not help with HF/RF noise isolation.

 

you lost me again. please define "perfect isolation". What is HF noise? You say USB over optical is perfect yet say this usb over optical is not?

 

Any optical USB solution is going to have to convert from electrical to optical and back. It is unavoidable. Why do you state it will add noise? What kind of noise? How do you know that? Seems to me to just a guess about ill defined terms

 

IF The Audiowise is purely an optical connection, which it is, how is RF getting down the fiber? If anything, physically separating the computer from the DAC decreases RF, it doesn't add any. It can't. it is an optical fiber

 

 

OPTO•USB™ is a USB optical isolator that provides RF isolated transmission of high-resolution digital audio from source to a USB DAC. OPTO•USB is better than any inline isolator, exotic USB cable or alternative USB-over-optical solutions* that use an embedded copper wire in the optical fiber. OPTO•USB uses 100% glass fiber for total RF isolation: there is no galvanic connection to conduct RF and no tethered antenna to emit or absorb radiated RF.  OPTO•USB ensures that a DAC's USB input is as RF isolated as possible.

[Raimund Heubel]

5 minutes ago, matthias said:

USB4 with much higher speeds is upcoming. Do exist standards for optical USB transmission which are able to deliver these speed standards?

I cannot tell but will try to find out and come back later to your question.

But why would speed matter in terms of improving sound quality? I mean what are the physicals explaining the improvement in sound quality Emile from Taiko is perceiving?

 

BR,

Raimund

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, Raimund Heubel said:

I cannot tell but will try to find out and come back later to your question.

But why would speed matter in terms of improving sound quality? I mean what are the physicals explaining the improvement in sound quality Emile from Taiko is perceiving?

 

BR,

Raimund

My guess is it has nothing to do with speed and more to do with the protocol and design of the output. Kind of like a car with a 500 horsepower engine may be better than a 95 horsepower engine even though both are only going 60 mile per hour. Just a guess though.

[matthias]

23 minutes ago, Raimund Heubel said:

I cannot tell but will try to find out and come back later to your question.

But why would speed matter in terms of improving sound quality? I mean what are the physicals explaining the improvement in sound quality Emile from Taiko is perceiving?

 

Chris, already gave a very good explanation.

Speed seems really to matter with the Extreme.

The higher speed USB outputs get their signal from the probably best USB controller chip, the ASM3142.

Then all who used the EtherRegen with Extreme discovered that the Extreme sounds much better when connected to the higher speed A-side of the ER and not to the lower speed B-side of the ER.

So when the optical standard is inferior to the "copper" standard it will most certainly sound worse.

The specs of higher speed USB are much tighter and the USB cables for this standards have to cope with that.

 

Matt

[Raimund Heubel]

14 minutes ago, bbosler said:

 

you lost me again. please define "perfect isolation". What is HF noise? You say USB over optical is perfect yet say this usb over optical is not?

 

Any optical USB solution is going to have to convert from electrical to optical and back. It is unavoidable. Why do you state it will add noise? What kind of noise? How do you know that? Seems to me to just a guess about ill defined terms

 

IF The Audiowise is purely an optical connection, which it is, how is RF getting down the fiber? If anything, physically separating the computer from the DAC decreases RF, it doesn't add any. It can't. it is an optical fiber

The efficiency of the conversion from electrical to optical USB is dependant on how it is implemented.

If you for example simply take the USB stream including audio, clock and sample rate information and do not separate the three paths in the conversion process you will after the 2nd conversion end-up with an electrical signal incl. the embedded clock and associated jitter information from the source as before the conversion. Yes there is a degree of isolation of the total data stream but no new re-clocked audio stream independant from the source clock and the HF/RF noise that goes with the computer source. Does this better explain what I mean with perfect isolation of the digital signal?

 

BR,

Raimund

[matthias]

@Raimund Heubel

 

I just read the description of the USB module of the artistic fidelity DAC:

2-Kanal Digitaleingang per USB, bis 24Bit/192kHz, interne galvanische Trennung per Lichtleiterstrecke und somit vollständige Unterdrückung der HF-Störungen vom Computer.

So you have complete optical isolation even when you have a copper USB connection from server to DAC.

 

Matt

[Raimund Heubel]

15 minutes ago, matthias said:

@Raimund Heubel

 

I just read the description of the USB module of the artistic fidelity DAC:

2-Kanal Digitaleingang per USB, bis 24Bit/192kHz, interne galvanische Trennung per Lichtleiterstrecke und somit vollständige Unterdrückung der HF-Störungen vom Computer.

So you have complete optical isolation even when you have a copper USB connection from server to DAC.

 

Matt

That‘s correct, Matthias.

The former external USB-module from the ‘afi + USB‘ DDC or the ‘afis + USB’ isolator switch has been built into the ‘artifex-dac’ housing if you wish to connect your source via copper USB to the DAC from artistic fidelity.

Same btw applies to the streamer called ‘arfi-stream xto‘ which you can upgrade with the same USB-module built right into the streamer‘s housing if you for example already own such module and had previously purchased an ‘afi + usb‘ or an ‘afis + usb‘ device.

 

BR,

Raimund

[bbosler]

1 hour ago, Raimund Heubel said:

do not separate the three paths in the conversion process

 

so that begs the question... "why do you keep bring this up?" because there is never going to be a standard where 3 optical fibers are used for USB no matter how wonderful it would be.

 

1 hour ago, Raimund Heubel said:

embedded clock and associated jitter information from the source 

 

There is no embedded clock with jitter in USB when using asynchronous transfer which is the current norm, It is data sent in packets like ethernet at a rate determined by the receiver. 

 

 

 

[matthias]

1 hour ago, Raimund Heubel said:

The former external USB-module from the ‘afi + USB‘ DDC or the ‘afis + USB’ isolator switch has been built into the ‘artifex-dac’ housing if you wish to connect your source via copper USB to the DAC from artistic fidelity.

Same btw applies to the streamer called ‘arfi-stream xto‘ which you can upgrade with the same USB-module built right into the streamer‘s housing if you for example already own such module and had previously purchased an ‘afi + usb‘ or an ‘afis + usb‘ device.

 

Raimund,

 

so may I compare this quoted post with your post #84.

 

There is nothing about to blame the Extreme, you have the UHQ USB output of the Extreme and send it via an UHQ copper USB cable to your artifex-dac where the afis+USB isolator switch does complete optical isolation.

 

This is in my view as perfect as it gets.

 

Matt

[Raimund Heubel]

9 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

Raimund,

 

so may I compare this quoted post with your post #84.

 

There is nothing about to blame the Extreme, you have the UHQ USB output of the Extreme and send it via an UHQ copper USB cable to your artifex-dac where the afis+USB isolator switch does complete optical isolation.

 

This is in my view as perfect as it gets.

 

Matt

Matt,

 

I see no contradiction, quite the opposit, to my post #84.

Can I not expect from an ultra high expensive server to provide the best USB-signal independant from my own DAC? Why does the Extreme offer an optical input but no optical output, not even as an option?

I do not have a copper USB input in my DAC, believe it or not it is an optional feature only, and would of course needed to use my existing ‘afis + USB‘ isolator switch plus an influencing USB-cable in the chain to feed the signal coming from the Extreme into my DAC.

If I did not own such device and adequate USB-cable I would need to invest another €3k to just be able to connect the Extreme to my existing hardware, I find this not acceptable.

Plus there are other High-End Manufacturers of DACs out there who also do not allow for copper USB inputs for the same very good reasons of isolation and re-clocking needs.

You could argue then I should buy a High-End USB-DAC but there is no turning back for me after I listened to the artistic fidelity products with the integrated optical isolation since more than 5 years now. 

Never mind, I really appreciate the work, energy and thoughts that went into the Extreme but it does - despite its ultra high price - not tick all the boxes for me for the reasons I explained above.

 

BR,

Raimund

[matthias]

51 minutes ago, Raimund Heubel said:

Why does the Extreme offer an optical input but no optical output, not even as an option?

 

Raimund,

 

because both copper ethernet and FO ethernet inputs are standard inputs in 2020 for servers like USB is THE standard output.

 

I can not see at all a standard for an optical USB output.

 

Even your favourite DAC manufacturer moved on from a complicated three fiber extra box concept to a better solution which you explained in post #120.

 

Matt

[bbosler]

Raimund, I was accused of beating a dead horse earlier in this thread, and with all due respect, you have beaten this optical thing and beaten it repeatedly. You have a very unusual DAC that does not have a standard USB input. USB is the current standard. Complaining over and over that the Extreme is incompatible with a DAC that is highly unusual is not going to change that. It won't work for you. We get it. What do you hope to accomplish by going over it again and again?