Article: Reality Quest: Going to Extremes with the Taiko Audio SGM Extreme (Part 5 of 5)

[Axial]

Can we hope to see the Extreme on sale @ Boxing Day? ...Black Friday?  ...Bloody Sunday? ...COVID-19 Anniversary Day? ...Any Day? ...On 'Q' for a Holiday?

 

 

[ray-dude]

That’s awesome! I’m glad you’re trying something new and it is working for you!

 

Rob Watts has written extensively about his digital volume control approach. See as a starting point

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-143#post-12429044
 

basically absolutely no issue at low volumes because of the precision of the digital pipeline 

[Axial]

SGM ... what does it stand for, ... Sound Galleries Music  ? 

[bbosler]

Ray...

 

Dave ordered

 

appears the difference in the single ended and balanced outputs on the Dave is the XLR out has significantly higher output impedance which is not good for driving speakers..

 

.5 vs 66 ohms

 

sorry if you covered this, but why aren't you using the Chord scaler? Cheap relative to most of your other gear.. 

 

... thanks again

[Iving]

5 hours ago, Axial said:

Can we hope to see the Extreme on sale @ Boxing Day? ...Black Friday?  ...Bloody Sunday? ...COVID-19 Anniversary Day? ...Any Day? ...On 'Q' for a Holiday?

 

 

 

If we're waiting for markdowns, perhaps the first "preloved" ad will come much sooner than the first holiday sale.

[Iving]

Just a few 2c thoughts. I guess my focus is on key reference terms and their meaning/fulness. I am a Computer Audiophile fantasising - as I read the conversation so far - that I had an Extreme and, so, I trust my reflections are on topic.

 

Prequel: Hats off to Emile for pioneering the design with all that R&D - and also @ray-dude for these classy, informative and entertaining write-ups.

 

On 5/23/2020 at 6:34 PM, bbosler said:

the "Extreme" ... has one job, take the ethernet input and output the best USB stream it can possibly produce.

 

I would relish trialing the Extreme in lieu of the PC in my system [see signature line] - in which case it would have no "input" - and its output would be ethernet, not USB. Whilst I shouldn't be at all surprised to hear stellar performance, of course the Extreme wasn't designed with me in mind. I see it as primarily a "streamer" - by which I mean a device whose primary function is to relay online music directly or indirectly to a DAC. With all that processing power, I presume also that it is intended for those with up-sampling in mind - and those who might be running several software programmes for music transmission simultaneously. My drift is that the Extreme matches a particular use/mindset - whereas Hi-Fi is a pursuit which quite rightly engages diverse nags on many courses.

 

On 5/23/2020 at 7:08 PM, matthias said:

you seem not to understand Source First

 

I'm not looking to open a can of worms about what happens to digits on the way from a remote server - but would nevertheless argue that the "Source" in my case begins on a local drive. Actually CD Rips on another PC copied via fb2k filters prn to the Optane AIC in my PC - which I call a PC - but which I am happy to regard as a server - since it serves local music to a DAC via a RedNet interface. I would never refer to either my PC or the RedNet D16 AES as an endpoint. I am less advertising my own approach than musing on what kind of local server the Extreme would be. More to the point - if it had been designed as a local server - how different would it be and in what respects? Come to that - if it is connected offline directly to a DAC, is it then an endpoint rather than a server?

 

On 5/24/2020 at 12:00 AM, austinpop said:

my EtherRegen review.

 

Congrats @austinpopagain on another first class review. I am not addressing whether an eR should precede/make any difference in front of an Extreme. Just confirming that in an offline system, my eR makes a very worthwhile difference between PC and RedNet interface: I suppose one could say between server and endpoint. But i do see "endpoint" loaded with connotations and associations - in particular NAS and streaming (online music) - neither of which apply in my case.

 

On 5/24/2020 at 1:05 AM, Nenon said:

There are a lot of things done in the Extreme already. To name a few:

- Carefully selected PCIe NIC.

- Specific version of the NIC driver.

- Highly tweaked and controlled hardware (i.e. controlled by the driver) settings.

- Highly tweaked software settings for the NIC.

- Specific buffer levels.

- Highly tweaked Windows settings, services, etc to control exactly what network traffic needs to go out the NIC.

- CPU isolation, affinities, and priority for every network related service running on the Extreme

That is just to name a few. There is probably a lot more I don't even know about.

 

If the Extreme were to replace the PC in my system - as a server without an endpoint I would say - all of these refinements would benefit me provided that everything related to network optimisation was geared to Dante downstream of the PC and prior to the DAC.

 

On 5/24/2020 at 2:56 AM, austinpop said:

The fact that you keep referring to the Extreme as a streamer tells me you have a fundamental misunderstanding of this product.

 

Forgive me. I don't get this. To me the Extreme is a "streamer". I am not trying to be awkward! If it were designed as an offline server, its very sophisticated design could be different in significant respects.

 

On 5/24/2020 at 6:37 AM, austinpop said:

As you quoted, the Extreme is a Music Server, which is more than a streamer. The term Streamer (or Endpoint) is usually reserved for a device that  does not itself do music serving (i.e. library management, retrieval of music from storage), but receives a music stream from an upstream music server.

 

This is typical in streaming architectures, where these 3 types of functionality are logical distributed:

• server
• renderer
• control

Physically, devices could combine roles into one. The Extreme is a good example - the most common and recommended use is attached directly to the DAC. In this case, the serving and rendering is on the same box. Such devices are interchangeably referred to as either servers, or alternatively, music players.

 

As to the other matter, regarding what you expect an expensive component to do - I'm done with that discussion. The horse you were flogging was already dead, and I shouldn't have engaged.

 

OK - so regards terminology things could get very confusing! The only point I really want to make is that mindsets and precedents can be hindrances as much as platforms useful for progressing and taking things forward. To me it is moot yet highly relevant whether the Extreme - designed as a streamer - is also such an all-rounder that I could conceive of it as a worthwhile replacement for my PC which if inclined you could also call a server. btw I control my PC via Remote Desktop from a tablet at the listening position. I still regard that as offline since the network's only function pre my PC is to receive control instructions for fb2k on the host PC.

 

tbh I find it gobsmacking that after all that has been said over the years about NAS and endpoints and NUCs and everything else that an optimal/common arrangement is Extreme connected directly to a DAC via USB.

 

14 hours ago, ray-dude said:

The folks in the DIY server thread are doing very impressive work to edge in that direction.  I would lean on their experience with other high power server options to hear what they are hearing (I would certainly hope and assume that one doesn't have to jump to the Extreme to be able to hear these sorts of benefits) ... All that being said, I don't think the road has run out on the dual server path either.  I think there are two different roads up the same mountain, each with a long way still in front of them.

 

I am deeply appreciative of the blogging shared by @Nenon and @StreamFidelity. Even if their carefully thought out PC/servers are contrived with uses at variance to mine, I can harvest what I can see as useful in imagining my next server. [Don't tell the wife - and anyway it's OK I am very happy for the time being with what I've got.]

 

Summary: Whilst it may be a great all-rounder, to my eyes and mind the Extreme's design matches a particular system-use-mindset. In this respect it is off-the-peg rather than bespoke. Whilst I am perfectly OK with busy folks purchasing the blood, sweat and tears expended by others, from another standpoint there's nothing like building your own castle. I realise that with my offline/ethernet based system I am in a minority here at AS - the best Hi-Fi Forum on the www by a very long chalk.

[wwc]

On 5/23/2020 at 6:48 PM, ray-dude said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wwc]

3 minutes ago, wwc said:

 

Ray, it sounds like you see a possible upgrade path to the current Extreme usb implementation, as per mention of trying out the cat usb card?  
https://jcat.eu/featured/usb-card-xe/

I am currently using an Ideon 3r between Extreme and DAC to extend the length of short usb cables (Sablon and Intona).

https://ideonaudio.com/product/3r-usb-renaissance-mk2/

Do you think the Extremes current usb card stands to be complimented by the Ideon or might I be better served with a longer usb cable?   Speculative question, I know...

 

[Raimund Heubel]

16 hours ago, skatbelt said:

Computer hardware is very noisy by design. In normal appliances this doesn't matter so much but in audio systems it does. In fact, a lot! In my opinion the Taiko Audio SGM Extreme is so extreme and expensive because it has to fight the evil that is caused by itself in the first place. Does this formulation make sense? Personally, I think it is more wise to invest in isolation and clocking. And to keep server and streamer hardware separate and - in networking terms - far from each other with typical computer HW like SSD's, IO busses, graphical processors etc. high upstream.

I fully agree, it is a server‘s or streamer‘s task in my opinion to prepare a perfect digital signal stream from its output to the DAC‘s input. Re-clocking and isolation are the key attributes to achieve this ideal goal. It appears the Extreme‘s efficiency to achieve this is still dependant on both, the quality of the upstream source to its input as well as a further tuning of its output signal. I go as far as to say that even if the input data stream is noisy but still bit perfect what in the end will count is the server’s/streamer‘s ability to put out a clean perfectly clocked and isolated digital data stream free of RF and other noises to the downstream DAC. It must not even matter which (USB-) or other digital signal cable runs from the server/streamer to the DAC. One way to achieve the independancy of digital cables transfering the perfect digital signal to the DAC is the use of fibre optical cables as they guarantee a perfectly isolated signal. This obviously requires an optical input on the DAC side such as this system I had shown in this forum a couple of times. One should take especially a look at the last of the four pictures displayed on the website when following above link.

 

BR,

Raimund

[ray-dude]

4 hours ago, wwc said:

Ray, it sounds like you see a possible upgrade path to the current Extreme usb implementation, as per mention of trying out the cat usb card?  
https://jcat.eu/featured/usb-card-xe/

I am currently using an Ideon 3r between Extreme and DAC to extend the length of short usb cables (Sablon and Intona).

https://ideonaudio.com/product/3r-usb-renaissance-mk2/

Do you think the Extremes current usb card stands to be complimented by the Ideon or might I be better served with a longer usb cable?   Speculative question, I know...

 

 

I have not heard the Ideon myself (I went from ISORegens to the tX-USBultra). Based on how the SOtM tX-USBultra SE with Paul Hynes SR4 actually was degrade SQ for me(!), I suspect the implementation of the USB PHY on the chipset is having an outsized impact vs reclocking, power, etc.  That is part of what is appealing for me with the JCAT USB XE...same chipset, but with the bonus of better power, etc.

 

Based on the specs and vintage, if I had to guess the Ideon is not using the ASMedia chipset, but as folks on the right side of the pond are fond of saying, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. As always, no substitute for a listening test!

 

My solution to the USB length problem was the Monoprice USB slim.  That may be an alternative to try to see what works best in your chain (and please report back...always keen to find a way to step up the USB ladder!) 

[ray-dude]

13 hours ago, bbosler said:

Ray...

 

Dave ordered

 

appears the difference in the single ended and balanced outputs on the Dave is the XLR out has significantly higher output impedance which is not good for driving speakers..

 

.5 vs 66 ohms

 

sorry if you covered this, but why aren't you using the Chord scaler? Cheap relative to most of your other gear.. 

 

... thanks again

 

I hope you enjoy it, and please report back!

 

I always found better transparency and detail through the RCA output of DAVE to speakers.  I use the XLR outs to the powered Voxativ Pi bass units, so not an issue for me.  Do note that depending on your speakers, you may be wishing for some pop or dynamics going straight from DAVE (I did with my Voxativs).  I ended up getting a Sean Jacobs custom DC3 supply for my DAVE, and it resulted in a (mostly) no compromise experience for me.  Reports from folks with his new DC4 supply is that it is even better still, although I am patiently waiting for my custom Paul Hynes SR7 build for the DAVE power supply upgrade.  Net net, if you love the transparency of going to direct, there are ways to tune up the new paradigm.

 

I have owned and adored the Chord mScaler products (Blu2 then Hugo mScaler).  Hearing 1M tap upscaled music was a revelation, and a clear demarcation line in my audio journey (pre mScaler and post mScaler).  I wrote a lot about that stuff over at Head-Fi.  I recently made the switch to HQPlayer (Jussi added the sinc-M filter and later the 15th order noise shaper).  These are approximating what I heard with mScaler, and getting better over time. 

 

Although I still give a nod to Chord's HW implementation, HQP is pretty good.  For me, I occasionally "burn the ships" as they say, and commit to what I think will be the right long term path (in this case, software upsampling) even if it is a step backwards.  That forces me to learn and optimize and figure out how to take advantage of the different approach.  Moving from the Chord mScalers to HQP has certainly been a burn the ships moment for me (very difficult given how much I love the mScalers...still miss my Blu2!) but I've learned a heck of a lot, and there is a lot more to learn and leverage!  

 

For civilians, the Chord mScalers still have my highest recommendation.  Incredible experience, esp. when you can hear it all going to headphones or direct to speakers!

 

 

[bbosler]

1 hour ago, ray-dude said:

 I ended up getting a Sean Jacobs custom DC3 supply for my DAVE,

 

so obviously you (somebody) opened up the DAVE and hooked up the linear supply. Did you do this yourself? I'm buying a new one so hesitate to pop the top on a new piece even though completely comfortable doing the electronics work.

 

thanks for doing all of this work, much appreciate your willingness to share

 

I'm going all in with the scaler, but then you have the question of the BNC cables... endless ... as you well know

[ray-dude]

1 minute ago, bbosler said:

 

so obviously you (somebody) opened up the DAVE and hooked up the linear supply. Did you do this yourself? I'm buying a new one so hesitate to pop the top on a new piece even though completely comfortable doing the electronics work.

 

thanks for doing all of this work, much appreciate your willingness to share

 

I'm going all in with the scaler, but then you have the question of the BNC cables... endless ... as you well know

 

Yes, open the case, couple screws to remove the stock SMPS, connect the power connector to the DAVE PCB.  Completely reversible, takes about 15 minutes because of all the screws. For a new DAVE, obviously has warranty implications and isn't endorsed by Chord, etc.

 

I spent a bunch of time on BNC cables.  I ended up with the following as my preferred:

 

https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/audiowise-opto•dx-optical-isolation-bridge-for-dual-spdif.23757/reviews#review-22155

 

with Nick's WAVE cables as the top of class for traditional cables.  It's been a while since I've been spending time in that world though...

[bbosler]

opto-DC ordered.. now stop with the recommendations as I am spending my retirement 😃

 

will be selling my Mutec Ref10, MC-3+ USB, Antelope Trinity master clock, and Lynx Hilo  since no longer needed

 

 

[ray-dude]

When it's all in house and you've had a chance to listen, please report back!

[The Computer Audiophile]

12 minutes ago, bbosler said:

now stop with the recommendations as I am spending my retirement 😃

Hopefully that’s the reason you worked so hard all those years. To spend it. 
 

13 minutes ago, bbosler said:

will be selling my Mutec Ref10, MC-3+ USB, Antelope Trinity master clock, and Lynx Hilo  since no longer needed

Perfect timing. We just opened our Classifieds section. 
 

https://audiophilestyle.com/classifieds/

 

[matthias]

18 hours ago, Raimund Heubel said:

I fully agree, it is a server‘s or streamer‘s task in my opinion to prepare a perfect digital signal stream from its output to the DAC‘s input. Re-clocking and isolation are the key attributes to achieve this ideal goal. It appears the Extreme‘s efficiency to achieve this is still dependant on both, the quality of the upstream source to its input as well as a further tuning of its output signal. I go as far as to say that even if the input data stream is noisy but still bit perfect what in the end will count is the server’s/streamer‘s ability to put out a clean perfectly clocked and isolated digital data stream free of RF and other noises to the downstream DAC. It must not even matter which (USB-) or other digital signal cable runs from the server/streamer to the DAC. One way to achieve the independancy of digital cables transfering the perfect digital signal to the DAC is the use of fibre optical cables as they guarantee a perfectly isolated signal. This obviously requires an optical input on the DAC side such as this system I had shown in this forum a couple of times. One should take especially a look at the last of the four pictures displayed on the website when following above link.

 

Interesting that the Extreme alone does sound superior  vs. Extreme plus opticalRendu as endpoint, both into the same DAC. This seems to be true also for other servers with a certain quality level. Adding an endpoint reduces SQ.

 

Matt

[RickyV]

9 hours ago, bbosler said:

opto-DC ordered.. now stop with the recommendations as I am spending my retirement 😃

 

will be selling my Mutec Ref10, MC-3+ USB, Antelope Trinity master clock, and Lynx Hilo  since no longer needed

 

 

What speakers speakers are you going to hookup to the Dave?

[vortecjr]

4 hours ago, matthias said:

 

Interesting that the Extreme alone does sound superior  vs. Extreme plus opticalRendu as endpoint, both into the same DAC. This seems to be true also for other servers with a certain quality level. Adding an endpoint reduces SQ.

 

Matt

This is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but you have no basis for that conclusion and it’s improper to state it as a definitive. 

 

Ray-dude nice work on the series.

[bbosler]

13 hours ago, ray-dude said:

When it's all in house and you've had a chance to listen, please report back!

 

Ray, in preparation for the DAVE, can you tell me what the DC voltage/current it requires if I decide to use a linear supply. Also just ordered the SCR-DX to go with the Opto-DX. If it works as planned a much more economical solution to use HQplayer as you are than the Chord scaler

 

4 hours ago, RickyV said:

What speakers speakers are you going to hookup to the Dave?

 

Avantgarde Duo Omegas with DIY 16 foot bass horns.

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

This is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but you have no basis for that conclusion and it’s improper to state it as a definitive. 

 

Ray-dude nice work on the series.

As a manufacturer this type of post isn't allowed below a review. 

[ray-dude]

28 minutes ago, bbosler said:

Ray, in preparation for the DAVE, can you tell me what the DC voltage/current it requires if I decide to use a linear supply. Also just ordered the SCR-DX to go with the Opto-DX. If it works as planned a much more economical solution to use HQplayer as you are than the Chord scaler

 

+-15V, +5V.  My Sean Jacobs supply is over-spec'ed to support up to 5A on each rail, which is way more than what the DAVE is consuming, but I never measured what it actually is consuming

 

Love the giant horns!!  

[matthias]

1 hour ago, vortecjr said:

This is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but you have no basis for that conclusion and it’s improper to state it as a definitive. 

 

Please have a look at

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-150#post-631854

 

and

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/58164-building-a-diy-music-server/page/14/?tab=comments#comment-1050842

 

and the following posts.

 

Matt

[Raimund Heubel]

5 hours ago, matthias said:

 

Please have a look at

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-150#post-631854

 

and

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/58164-building-a-diy-music-server/page/14/?tab=comments#comment-1050842

 

and the following posts.

 

Matt

Thanks, Matthias, this is a really interesting discussion which only came to light because of the radical approach ‘Taiko Audio’ took with the development and build of the SGM Extreme server.

Still I strongly believe there is even more potential for the combination of the stand-alone Extreme without endpoint and the downstream DAC if the Extreme had an optical USB-out and the DAC an optical USB-in as for example realized by the German company ‘artistic fidelity‘ in their line-up of server (streamers) and DAC combinations or in their ‘afi + USB‘ DDC.

Neither does the previously mentioned Monoprice SlimRun USB extension cable provide complete isolation - it converts an electric USB signal to an optical back to an electric signal - nor does the Dave or other high-end DACs usually have optical inputs. There is so much effort in the upstream digital signal path, yet in the Extreme itself but inconsequently not so much at the very end of the signal path when the digital data hit the input of the DAC to finally undergo its conversion into an analog signal. In my opinion this is a missed opportunity

 

BR,

Raimund

[bbosler]

13 minutes ago, Raimund Heubel said:

Neither does the previously mentioned Monoprice SlimRun USB extension cable provide complete isolation - it converts an electric USB signal to an optical back to an electric signal - nor does the Dave or other high-end DACs usually have optical inputs.

 

you lost me, maybe not hard to do, but you lost me. What do you mean by "complete isolation?" The Monoprice cable is not electrically isolated because it has wires running to the output side to power  the circuit to convert the light back to electric for the DAC. Converting it to optical and back would electrically isolate if the receiver side did not get power from the transmit side. 

 

The DAVE and most DACs do have optical Toslink inputs. They are usually if not always limited to lower rates, but they are optical. Like I said, you lost me/