Article: Reality Quest: Going to Extremes with the Taiko Audio SGM Extreme (Part 5 of 5)

[bbosler]

43 minutes ago, tsaett said:

 

I wouldn't expect a $1m formula1 race car to be immune to choice of tires

 

Not at all, but to Alan's point.. if I paid that for a car I would expect it to come with the ideal tires. The only variable for tires would be the road conditions, but that analogy fails as the conditions in his living room are not changing.

 

If a $26K server is so profoundly affected by the choice of cables or Ethernet switches or whatever then there is a problem with the server. If it is so profoundly affected by an ethernet switch then it doesn't work properly.

 

All the attributes that I heard before with the EtherREGEN are back - increased speed and control (especially for bass), more subtlety and detail, awesome openness and sense of space

 

That should have been dealt with in the design and implementation. If my $1K NUC or Mac Mini is better with a  $640 EtherRegen then I accept that, it makes sense to me. If I paid $26K and it was I would be pissed.

 

That said, I have no problem with anybody spending whatever they want playing around with this stuff. I get it. I see it as somebody who has the means entertaining themselves with their disposable income. 

 

 

[bbosler]

 

1 hour ago, matthias said:

Every component in a system is dependent on the quality of the input signal.

 

So the best speakers sound better when you drive them with a better amplifier.

 

 This thing is designed and sold as the "Extreme" which to me means no stone unturned in the pursuit of perfection. If you believe the hype then there is no "better amplifier." This is the best.

 

so I will say it again and let it go since we will obviously not come to a consensus here... It has one job, take the ethernet input and output the best USB stream it can possibly produce. The fact that it fails to do this means it is not properly designed. The fact that it can be profoundly affected by adding a $640 ethernet switch to the input says to me it is not properly designed. If  optimizing the network signal is required for optimal performance then the designer should have that taken that into account. So regarding the packets of ethernet data it is receiving it should  deal with that and be immune to what comes before.

 

So yea, I just said the same thing 6 different ways

[bbosler]

40 minutes ago, matthias said:

seem not to understand Source First,

 

of course I do, it can't control what is being fed to it. my point is... if the $640 device can deal with the feed, this $26K device should be able to do so even better. Ethernet is pretty well understood. Packets of data. Re-read my post.. this device has but one fundamental job, it is just an ethernet based Roon server, take data in through the ethernet port  and output the same data via the USB port. It can't even do that one job properly. I'll stand by my analysis. A $26K ethernet server  is not properly designed if profoundly affected by the ethernet feed. 

 

40 minutes ago, matthias said:

The Extreme does exactly this and better than any other device I am aware of.

 

just curious, how do you know that? based on this review or do you have hands on experience with it and the other servers out there? And to get just a little bit snarky, or do you buy into the idea that "it is the most expensive so it must be the best" mentality that we see here quite a bit? My apologies in advance if you do not, but many of the reviews here follow clearly along those lines.

 

 

 

 

[bbosler]

9 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

This space is for discussion of the review and Extreme server. 

 

Sorry if I am off topic. My overall point is very simple... sorry if it got lost in the race car tire analogies.

 

that point is... the Extreme is not taking it to the extreme and is  inherently flawed if it needs help dealing with the data coming in through the ethernet port.  What amazes me is nobody seems to be concerned about that. They willingly accept that at $26K it is profoundly improved by adding a $640 device to the front end. Is that on topic?

 

Not trying to start a fight, just want to understand where I went off topic so I don't do it again.

 

 

[bbosler]

ok

[bbosler]

44 minutes ago, austinpop said:

it's all very well to wish that an expensive piece of gear should be immune to its upstream, but it just doesn't work this way. This is why even expensive DACs like a dCS Rossini, a Chord DAVE, an MSB Select etc. all benefit from a device like the Extreme upstream of them. SQ optimization is necessarily an end-to-end endeavor.

 

point taken, but where does "upstream" begin? I contend that it should begin with the $26K streamer. Obviously you believe it is further up. 

 

 

38 minutes ago, ray-dude said:

If you have a DAC that is capable of driving 1-2W into a speaker like load (and the Chord Hugo2 and DAVE and TT2 most definitely are), do yourself a favor and give a listen to something like the SAMs in near field.

 

I will definitely consider this. I have 110dB horns so a few watts is more than enough to get them going. If nothing else from Extreme week that is a good take away for me. So forgive me if I missed this, but how do you connect the DAC to the speakers. I see the XLR outputs going to the bass modules and the speaker cables to the full range drivers? How do you connect the speaker cables to the DAVE? Thanks

 

 

[bbosler]

31 minutes ago, matthias said:

Qobuz>>>Modem>>>Router>>>Switch(es)>>>Extreme

 

let me rephrase that, where does upstream that we have any control over begin? I obviously have no control over Qobuz and most of us are locked into a Modem or a few that our IP provider dictates. This modem often functions as a router with a switch, so you can run a cable direct from the modem box to the Extreme if you wish. So other than the  choice of ethernet cable into the Extreme, the stream I can control starts at the Extreme.

 

and to A'pops caution about SQ-sapping noise. I don't dispute that. I have an EtherRegen that I use on devices that are not optimized to be music servers like a Mac Mini and a Rossini DAC. I'm sure Apple gave little or no consideration to the SQ of their streaming, and the Rossini is a DAC with a streamer tacked on. This Extreme was built from the ground up to be a streamer and only a streamer. It should be able to handle the noise or whatever the Modem/router/switch throws at it. . I don't seem to be making my point so I'll give up on this 

 

Ray, thanks for the cabling info , now to locate a used DAVE at a good price.. Damn you :>)

[bbosler]

wow, I just got dismissed from a forum about stereo equipment for having a cavalier attitude! That may be a first. 

 

As the owner of first a Debussy and then a Rossini DAC with Clock, I do not think DCS is "slapdash." I was opining that it isn't fair to compare a DCS  $24K DAC with a built in streamer to a $26K streamer. Sorry if that offended you.

 

1 hour ago, Nenon said:

Even the most expensive amplifier with the most sophisticated power supply benefits from a better power cord.

 

Even if true, I would not expect to pay the $250K for the amplifier you mentioned and then have to pay even more for the power cord. The guy who designed the amp should include it in the price.

 

so we have come to the crux of the matter. You guys seem to embrace the idea that you need to keep adding on more and more expensive tweaks to get your already expensive boxes to perform. I reject that idea. We are obviously on different journeys.. enjoy yours

[bbosler]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

The fact that you keep referring to the Extreme as a streamer tells me you have a fundamental misunderstanding of this product.

 

I am curious and eager to learn. please educate me, or as my electronics students used to say "learn me about that," (seriously, I do want to know)

 

I base my terminology on things like this from Taiko

 

Quote

The Taiko Audio SGM Extreme is a State of the Art Music Server designed to deliver the most realistic sounding / live reproduction from stored music files and streaming music from Qobuz and Tidal. The standard software suite is Roon with delivery of the data stream to JPlay which delivers the data stream to the USB controller.

 

seems to me if it delivers a data stream it is a streamer

 

I found this on other sites

 

Quote

A Hi-Fi Streamer (also called a "Digital Streamer", "Media Player", "Network Player" or "Network Client") connects to your home network and internet (via ethernet cable or wirelessly) to play music from online services like Spotify, Tidal, iTunes, Last FM, internet radio, YouTube, etc and to seamlessly access music stored on your NAS drive, PC, Mac, or other Apple/Android device connected to your home network. 

 

[bbosler]

On 5/23/2020 at 6:11 PM, ray-dude said:

Once I realized what I was hearing, I made the investment to be able to hear that with Furutech connectors and my preferred speaker cables.

 

Ray,

 

I believe we have winner !! Hooked up the headphone output of my DAC and you are correct. Why in the world do I have interconnect cables and an amp inserted in between the DAC and the speakers?

 

It won't quite get to the volume I want especially on some recordings, but looks like the DAVE will so here we go. I can sell my amp and a pair of Cardas Clear XLR cables. 

 

Question... my only concern is the resolution of the DAVE volume control at lower volume levels. My current DAC has an analog volume control. I'm leery of volume controls in the digital domain at lower levels and don't see much about how the DAVE implements  volume control. Any concerns on your end ?? The manual doesn't warn against trying the volume control down too low so I assume they have it figured out

 

Thanks for the idea !!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bbosler]

Ray...

 

Dave ordered

 

appears the difference in the single ended and balanced outputs on the Dave is the XLR out has significantly higher output impedance which is not good for driving speakers..

 

.5 vs 66 ohms

 

sorry if you covered this, but why aren't you using the Chord scaler? Cheap relative to most of your other gear.. 

 

... thanks again

[bbosler]

1 hour ago, ray-dude said:

 I ended up getting a Sean Jacobs custom DC3 supply for my DAVE,

 

so obviously you (somebody) opened up the DAVE and hooked up the linear supply. Did you do this yourself? I'm buying a new one so hesitate to pop the top on a new piece even though completely comfortable doing the electronics work.

 

thanks for doing all of this work, much appreciate your willingness to share

 

I'm going all in with the scaler, but then you have the question of the BNC cables... endless ... as you well know

[bbosler]

opto-DC ordered.. now stop with the recommendations as I am spending my retirement 😃

 

will be selling my Mutec Ref10, MC-3+ USB, Antelope Trinity master clock, and Lynx Hilo  since no longer needed

 

 

[bbosler]

13 hours ago, ray-dude said:

When it's all in house and you've had a chance to listen, please report back!

 

Ray, in preparation for the DAVE, can you tell me what the DC voltage/current it requires if I decide to use a linear supply. Also just ordered the SCR-DX to go with the Opto-DX. If it works as planned a much more economical solution to use HQplayer as you are than the Chord scaler

 

4 hours ago, RickyV said:

What speakers speakers are you going to hookup to the Dave?

 

Avantgarde Duo Omegas with DIY 16 foot bass horns.

[bbosler]

13 minutes ago, Raimund Heubel said:

Neither does the previously mentioned Monoprice SlimRun USB extension cable provide complete isolation - it converts an electric USB signal to an optical back to an electric signal - nor does the Dave or other high-end DACs usually have optical inputs.

 

you lost me, maybe not hard to do, but you lost me. What do you mean by "complete isolation?" The Monoprice cable is not electrically isolated because it has wires running to the output side to power  the circuit to convert the light back to electric for the DAC. Converting it to optical and back would electrically isolate if the receiver side did not get power from the transmit side. 

 

The DAVE and most DACs do have optical Toslink inputs. They are usually if not always limited to lower rates, but they are optical. Like I said, you lost me/

[bbosler]

1 hour ago, Raimund Heubel said:

I am not talking about the indeed limiting Toslink optical but USB optical input.

 

I see, well that  is never going to happen so you might as well forget about it. I can't envision all of these companies getting together to establish the standards for yet another digital audio interface. Toslink is capable of going as high as you want if they would develop the right transmitters and receivers. Its not the connectors or the fiber. Since nobody has moved beyond where we are that tells me there isn't enough interest in optical.

[bbosler]

6 hours ago, Raimund Heubel said:

I am not talking about the indeed limiting Toslink optical but USB optical input. I am sorry if that was not clear from my previous post.

 

here you go

 

https://audiowise-canada.myshopify.com/collections/more-stuff/products/opto-usb-optical-signal-isolation

 

 

[bbosler]

5 hours ago, Raimund Heubel said:

cannot provide the perfect isolation by converting the electrical USB-datastream to an optical and back to an eletrical signal again by adding noise and likely the embedded clock signal within the datastream. The only purpose of this device as I see it is to enable the digital source to be placed far away from the DAC but even in this case this will not help with HF/RF noise isolation.

 

you lost me again. please define "perfect isolation". What is HF noise? You say USB over optical is perfect yet say this usb over optical is not?

 

Any optical USB solution is going to have to convert from electrical to optical and back. It is unavoidable. Why do you state it will add noise? What kind of noise? How do you know that? Seems to me to just a guess about ill defined terms

 

IF The Audiowise is purely an optical connection, which it is, how is RF getting down the fiber? If anything, physically separating the computer from the DAC decreases RF, it doesn't add any. It can't. it is an optical fiber

 

 

OPTO•USB™ is a USB optical isolator that provides RF isolated transmission of high-resolution digital audio from source to a USB DAC. OPTO•USB is better than any inline isolator, exotic USB cable or alternative USB-over-optical solutions* that use an embedded copper wire in the optical fiber. OPTO•USB uses 100% glass fiber for total RF isolation: there is no galvanic connection to conduct RF and no tethered antenna to emit or absorb radiated RF.  OPTO•USB ensures that a DAC's USB input is as RF isolated as possible.

[bbosler]

1 hour ago, Raimund Heubel said:

do not separate the three paths in the conversion process

 

so that begs the question... "why do you keep bring this up?" because there is never going to be a standard where 3 optical fibers are used for USB no matter how wonderful it would be.

 

1 hour ago, Raimund Heubel said:

embedded clock and associated jitter information from the source 

 

There is no embedded clock with jitter in USB when using asynchronous transfer which is the current norm, It is data sent in packets like ethernet at a rate determined by the receiver. 

 

 

 

[bbosler]

Raimund, I was accused of beating a dead horse earlier in this thread, and with all due respect, you have beaten this optical thing and beaten it repeatedly. You have a very unusual DAC that does not have a standard USB input. USB is the current standard. Complaining over and over that the Extreme is incompatible with a DAC that is highly unusual is not going to change that. It won't work for you. We get it. What do you hope to accomplish by going over it again and again?

[bbosler]

3 hours ago, Raimund Heubel said:

I am not necessarily looking for a new standard here but of course like the idea if OEMs could agree on such an output format vs. the inferior copper USB.

 

2 hours ago, Raimund Heubel said:

I am sure the Extreme is a custom build device why not let each individual customer decide which output modules/formats he/she wants to have implemented in the server? If one can ask for a certain Music Server software the Extreme shall run on why not give the individual customer the choice for certain hardware options as well?

 

3 hours ago, Raimund Heubel said:

I call it ‘challenge the status quo‘, especially applicable to the end-game server the Extreme wants to be seen as.

 

 

saying something a few times is making a point. Saying it over and over and over and over like you are doing is 

 

[bbosler]

My Chord Dave and M Scaler are here... after a few days to dial things in..... wow.

Hooked DAVE direct to my horns... wow

 

an incredible level of detail with no glare or harshness.. smoooooth.. Much better than the DCS Rossini, and the Rossini was wonderful..  That may be because with the Rossini I had interconnects and an amplifier, it may be that the DAVE volume control is just better than the DCS volume control... or the DAVE is just a better DAC to my ear ...... we'll never know. I also like that I don't have the various filters and MAPs and external clocks with the Rossini to concern myself with 

 

Next up will try

• linear DC supply for the DAVE after I void the warranty by opening it up
• Zenith MK3 as server instead of Mac Mini 2018
• Opto-DX to connect scaler to DAVE instead of direct with BNC
  • https://audiowise-canada.myshopify.com/products/dx-optical-isolation-kit
• SCR-DX with HQplayer instead of M Scaler
  • https://audiowise-canada.myshopify.com/products/src-dx-usb-to-dual-spdif-interface

 

I may have to keep the scaler since it also fits into my vinyl system as I don't think Pure Vinyl will recognize HQplayer as a playback device like Roon will

• ChannelD LinoC phono pre running without RIAA to 
• Antelope Eclipse to do A to D  to 
• Mac Mini running Pure Vinyl for RIAA correction back to
• Eclipse 192 SpDIF out to scaler

 

 

 

 

[bbosler]

In case anybody is still paying attention, I pulled the switcher and hooked my DAVE up to linear DC supplies. Don't tell Chord

 

A very profound change mostly for the better. More slam, more detail, more bass and more importantly more highly defined bass, easier to follow a bass line......, more , more, more. Which I'm still getting a handle on. Maybe too much more? I don't think so but I do think I am on the very hairy edge where the quality of the power supply is EXTREMELY important.

 

I was reading a thread over on another site that shall go nameless but purports to be "scientific." One of the senior members was dismissing DC supplies and claiming if they made a difference that the circuit being powered by them was somehow inadequate or poorly designed. I'll be nice and just say that senior member is blathering idiot in the throes of scientific denial and leave it at that. 

 

Currently a dual output Keces for the plus/minus 15V which I think the most important as it runs the analog stages and a generic eBay supply for the 5V. So now we start the slippery slide down the rabbit hole of various linear DC supplies.

 

and so it goes.. .. Ray, thanks again for the ideas

[bbosler]

3 minutes ago, RickyV said:

oh my that is some statement.

 

Of course "much" is relative, but after hearing them both extensively in my system it is no contest.... for me. 

 

Factor in that the Rossini/clock combo is about twice as much retail, and I sold the DCS combo used for enough to pay for a new DAVE and M Scaler and pocket about $8K...  I am a happy camper.

 

What are your experiences?

 

 

[bbosler]

Any thoughts on a Teddy Pardo supplies? He can build me one with the 3 separate rails I need for the DAVE plus 12V for the Opto-DX receiver in one box