Is now the right time for "Extreme Week"?

[Account Closed]

This stuff is fun to read and may give others hints for things to try but for most it is just entertainment. It reminds me of a certain very slick audio mag that I no longer subscribe to. They have guys who can go on for pages about some mega dollar piece all with very glossy photos. It is as Chris said. The red Ferrari always gets the most looks. In the end analysis though it does give me the same sort of uneasy feeling the OP has. With all the very difficult things we have to see and hear about these days, it does leave me thinking more and more about "A Tale of Two Cities"; "It was the best of times and it was the worst of times". 

[NOMBEDES]

I think my Bluesound Node 2i ($549.00) is extreme.  Extremely good at what it does.  You push a button and you hear sound.

 

Keep up the good reviews!!

 

[ray-dude]

2 hours ago, Foggie said:

Which leads me to say, Ray's journey/write up is but a snap shot specific to him and his environment IMHO.  Its an interesting read for sure and its very cool to see how much he is enjoying this!  THAT is what its all about.  I would be too with a new toy for sure!

 

This is very generous, thank you.  The experience of audio is extremely personal.  I'm always leary of reviews that are distant and feel like they are judges in some competition.  What matters is the personal journey, and what lessons you can learn from the journeys others are taking.

 

I did reflect on some of the larger issues raised here.  During a very difficult time, music (and a new way to enjoy music) has been a very welcome and meaningful part of my life, and a balance against the many serious things that are happening all around us. There is no good way to deal with what no one should be dealing with.  In a world of no good choices, I often return to a favorite from Mary Oliver (below) and remind myself "Joy is not made to be a crumb".

 

Peace and health and joy to all of you in a very difficult time.

 

Ray

 

If you suddenly and unexpectedly feel joy, don’t hesitate.
Give in to it.
There are plenty of lives and whole towns destroyed or about to be.
We are not wise, and not very often kind.
And much can never be redeemed.
Still, life has some possibility left.
Perhaps this is its way of fighting back, that sometimes something happens better than all the riches or power in the world.
It could be anything, but very likely you notice it in the instant when love begins.
Anyway, that’s often the case.
Anyway, whatever it is, don’t be afraid of its plenty.
Joy is not made to be a crumb.

~ Mary Oliver

 

[Allan F]

11 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

I fully understand and sympathize with your position, however...  "Affordable" means different things to different people.

 

By no reasonable or acceptable definition of the term would a $27,000 music server be considered to be "affordable".

[sdolezalek]

6 hours ago, Iving said:

The OP modestly makes clear he: (i) appreciates the efforts of reviewers; (ii) considers the reviews germane "exquisite"; (iii) himself "lusts" after the SQ of expensive equipment; (iv) understands the escape listening motive at this difficult WFH time; and (v) isn't motivated primarily as a spoiler/killjoy.

He wants to reflect on: A. his hypothetical "guilt" should he spend "Extreme"-level money given the world's circumstances, together with his hypothetically enhanced enjoyment of music should he donate part of what he might otherwise spend on his next upgrade; and B. whether there is a shift of focus at AS towards less affordable gear together with whether AS might encourage more reviews at an affordable level (particularly for those at home not-thru-choice, and those working at the coalface whose incomes may not match top-end gear prices).

Thanks lving! You have correctly captured the spirit of my question.  More specifically when I started reading some of Rajiv's (austinpop's) wonderfully detailed reviews and looking at how carefully he has assembled and upgraded his system over time, it really fueled my ambition to do the same with my system.  I'm fortunate enough to have the resources to do that, so he was clearly stoking my dreams...

But, yesterday, when I was reading the latest installment of raydude's equally detailed and mouthwatering reviews, I suddenly realized that something didn't feel right.  That if I went out and spent $10k or $20k to add that last little element of clarity and then sat down on my couch to listen; that something would feel amiss.  I think I might feel very much the same about going out today and buying the latest McLaren and then driving that past the foodline (actually that would clearly feel worse) 😉 

That, in turn, led naturally to the question of just how good could an "affordable" solution be during a time where music can take on a greater importance for many of us and that was the question I was asking here.

[firedog]

1 hour ago, bluesman said:

This thread is really about a lot more than the wisdom, advisability and societal consequences of buying luxury goods (and I can only define a 5 figure piece of audio gear as a luxury - it’s neither a necessity nor mainstream entertainment).

 

First, it’s about personal codes of behavior.  Many who could afford high end living are comfortable and happy being down a rung or two.  One of my mentors when I was a resident and junior attending physician was a descendant of the founders of the Pennsylvania Railroad.  The family name is on everything from roads to skyscrapers.  He was a very nice and humble man (and a world class surgeon) who drove a Chevy, wore OTR suits, and never let a medical student or resident suffer because of a problem with which he could assist.  He and many of his colleagues (of whom he was not the only offspring of old money) were charitable because they were raised to be and thought it was the right thing to do.  Most were nice to everybody - they truly defined “gentleman” and “gentlewoman” (yes, I was educated by world class female physicians too).  Many of my friends and colleagues today are the same way.

 

There are many who feel that they earned their money and have a right to spend it however they wish, and for whatever reason they embrace.  They’re not wrong.  And many of those artists who design state of the art audio equipment that sells for 5 or 6 figures are just following their passions to an extreme.  There’s nothing wrong with that, either.
 

The cost of a pair of big Magicos would provide school lunches for much of the world’s starving children for days to weeks.  The excess caloric content ingested by the world’s obese population would cure those kids’ hunger permanently if redistributed to them.  But we also have the freedom to buy those speakers and eat twice as much as we need biologically.
 

This thread already demonstrates the difficulty of reconciling differences like these and assimilating them into a broad cultural context with which we could all live happily (even if not quite as satisfied in some aspects).  The closest we’re going to get to this is probably a balanced menu that has something for each “culture”.  We just have to be willing to let a few posted statements that may violate our personal code go unanswered.  
 

High end reviews are very interesting to me, even though I wouldn’t personally buy a $100,00+ component (or car).  I’ve bought many high end items used, just to experience them.  I later resold them with little or no loss (& not infrequently a bit of profit). But (as many of you know), value is my middle name - praise be to the Raspberry Pi!  So I’m lovin’ it all.  In the end, it shouldn’t be about any of us.  It’s about music and art and creativity and fun and adventure and learning.  
 

I think it should also be about the world in which we live and are leaving for our children.  But a healthy balance should be part of that, which to me means letting neither children nor artists go hungry.  If some of us help one group and some the other, it’s OK with me.  Stay the course, Chris.

Well said. 

In terms of audio, I'm fine with such reviews - I enjoy reading about other peoples journeys in audio  - even those on the "extreme" journey I'd never book. Chris seems to understand about the balance needed and reviewing components like the Parasound is a good counter - it's considered a "giant killer" - and it's important to also review items that give value for the dollar and allow SOTA (or something very close) for less.

Audiophile nervosa can be limited if articles are published showing how less expensive equipment can also give great results. 

[sdolezalek]

5 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Hi @sdolezalek, I always value your opinions and this one is no exception. I disagree with you but that’s ok. 

 

I would love to publish Value Week as a balance to Extreme Week. It all comes down to time, writers, and topics. Regardless of whether the red Ferrari  gets more eyeballs than the beige Toyota Camry, I’d still love to do it because I’m interested as well. 

Thanks Chris. I wasn't looking for agreement as much as I was looking to explore my own surprise at the changed emotions I was having in reading some of these great reviews now, as compared to even a month ago.  I'm not sure that I was even looking for a ValueWeek publication as much as maybe looking for a "big surprise in a little package."  Much of what we discuss here is what I would refer to as an "all-out-assault-on-the-state-of-the-art" and by having these discussions I believe that Audiophile Style has contributed to meaningfully improving the state of our art.

To use an imperfect analogy: As we all switched to home cooking, at first it was just about getting an edible meal to the table.  In the second month of this, that became boring, so we started experimenting much more, trying new dishes and wines we would never have tried a year ago.  It wasn't so much about expensive or better as it was about change and ideally an unexpected pleasure.  

I'd be pretty willing to bet that if Rajiv took a look at my system, he might suggest the equivalent of trying a new spice, something downright affordable but at the same time making me smile hugely at how much better my system sounded and with zero guilt about what I had spent to get there.  Ultimately, i think we need both: a continued assault on the state of the art PLUS some benefits of trickle down economics that offer the rest of us affordable smiles...

[bluesman]

28 minutes ago, firedog said:

Audiophile nervosa can be limited if articles are published showing how less expensive equipment can also give great results. 

And I'm one of those trying to help Chris fill that gap.  He already has the next installment of The Value Proposition in Audio (an in depth evaluation and comparison of operating systems for SBCs for audiophiles) queued up.  And I'm on the last page of the following one about hot rodding SBCs for audio, with sequential performance data as I built up my cooled SuperPi4 to run at 2.2GHz with great mods like zram/zswap, reduced GPU memory etc.  The one after that is underway as well - it's on audio things you can build with a Pi, including a multitrack DAW, a portable music recorder, a CD/vinyl ripper, and a 3 way active crossover.

 

Ain't we got fun!!!

[Blake]

While I appreciate the intent of the OP, this is just a slippery slope.  

 

In our Audiophile world, $300 headphones are considered "basic" and nobody here would flinch at that price.  Yet, to 99% of the population (including those of higher income levels) $300 for headphones would likely be viewed as extravagant.  So, are discussions about Sennheiser HD-600's verboten?  And what if COVID stays with us for years?

 

Everyone is well aware of what is going on in the world right now.  This place is a welcome oasis.  If I want discussion about COVID, I know where to look.  

 

 

[sdolezalek]

57 minutes ago, ray-dude said:

I did reflect on some of the larger issues raised here.  During a very difficult time, music (and a new way to enjoy music) has been a very welcome and meaningful part of my life, and a balance against the many serious things that are happening all around us. There is no good way to deal with what no one should be dealing with.  In a world of no good choices, I often return to a favorite from Mary Oliver (below) and remind myself "Joy is not made to be a crumb".

 

Ray:  Thank you for the Mary Oliver piece -- very fitting in these times.  The particular line that stuck out to me was: "Still, life has some possibility left." 

Perhaps that is also what Chris was getting at in terms of not wanting to be a downer in these times.  Those glimpses of a better future; of goodness we have not yet experienced, are an important part of what keeps us going in these times.  I must now go back and re-read your review with that frame of mind.  😉 Thanks

[firedog]

2 minutes ago, bluesman said:

And I'm one of those trying to help Chris fill that gap.  He already has the next installment of The Value Proposition in Audio (an in depth evaluation and comparison of operating systems for SBCs for audiophiles) queued up.  And I'm on the last page of the following one about hot rodding SBCs for audio, with sequential performance data as I built up my cooled SuperPi4 to run at 2.2GHz with great mods like zram/zswap, reduced GPU memory etc.  The one after that is underway as well - it's on audio things you can build with a Pi, including a multitrack DAW, a portable music recorder, a CD/vinyl ripper, and a 3 way active crossover.

 

Ain't we got fun!!!

Right now I'm using a RPi4 as a Roon endpoint in a $20k system- and I think it sounds fine. I will probably replace it at some point with something more "audiophile" that gives me some additional HW or SW feature, but in the meantime I'm enjoying my music and have no complaints.

[bluesman]

5 minutes ago, firedog said:

Right now I'm using a RPi4 as a Roon endpoint in a $20k system- and I think it sounds fine. I will probably replace it at some point with something more "audiophile" that gives me some additional HW or SW feature, but in the meantime I'm enjoying my music and have no complaints.

I'm with you!  Our living room system contains a bone stock 4 gig Pi 4 (running Roon Bridge) in a Flirc case driving an SMSL SU-8 into my trusty old Prima Luna Prologue+ (KT88s) making music through Focal 726 towers that flank our Yamaha grand ("we don't need no stinkin' Steinway").  I will probably not replace anything that doesn't fail or age out of its specs, except for technical breakthroughs, e.,g. my Emotiva Stealth was my main DAC until pushed to the test bench so I could listen to high res files in the living room.

[ray-dude]

12 minutes ago, sdolezalek said:

 

Ray:  Thank you for the Mary Oliver piece -- very fitting in these times.  The particular line that stuck out to me was: "Still, life has some possibility left." 

Perhaps that is also what Chris was getting at in terms of not wanting to be a downer in these times.  Those glimpses of a better future; of goodness we have not yet experienced, are an important part of what keeps us going in these times.  I must now go back and re-read your review with that frame of mind.  😉 Thanks

 

Thank you @sdolezalek that was precisely my hope in putting these write ups together. Posts like this make that effort worthwhile (and I would never wish reading it twice on anyone!

[Foggie]

1 hour ago, ray-dude said:

 

This is very generous, thank you.  The experience of audio is extremely personal.  I'm always leary of reviews that are distant and feel like they are judges in some competition.  What matters is the personal journey, and what lessons you can learn from the journeys others are taking.

 

I did reflect on some of the larger issues raised here.  During a very difficult time, music (and a new way to enjoy music) has been a very welcome and meaningful part of my life, and a balance against the many serious things that are happening all around us. There is no good way to deal with what no one should be dealing with.  In a world of no good choices, I often return to a favorite from Mary Oliver (below) and remind myself "Joy is not made to be a crumb".

 

Peace and health and joy to all of you in a very difficult time.

 

Ray

 

If you suddenly and unexpectedly feel joy, don’t hesitate.
Give in to it.
There are plenty of lives and whole towns destroyed or about to be.
We are not wise, and not very often kind.
And much can never be redeemed.
Still, life has some possibility left.
Perhaps this is its way of fighting back, that sometimes something happens better than all the riches or power in the world.
It could be anything, but very likely you notice it in the instant when love begins.
Anyway, that’s often the case.
Anyway, whatever it is, don’t be afraid of its plenty.
Joy is not made to be a crumb.

~ Mary Oliver

 

The aspect I enjoy of your recent posts, have been your attitude/neutrality.  You're just sharing your experience (in great detail) and having fun. 

 

I'm with you on the music being very personal and not only is it meaningful, to a large extent, its a pretty important part in my life as well (for many reasons beyond the scope here).  Given the current state of affairs I think its vital more than ever to keep ones spirits and mind in a good place, music certainly plays an important role IMHO.

 

In a broader sense (not directed at Ray), the role of money spent on this or that is really no one's business and I mean that in the most respectful way.  Certainly there are some that do things in excess that are ridiculous to most logical people (celebrities?), but the barometer is so different for everyone and in the context of a discussion, I just don't see it being productive related to whats OK to spend money on and what's not.  Its all relative.  Where does the acceptable line start and stop?  I'm not sure, I just don't think this is the place to speak to that. 

 

Car forums, watches, bikes, wine etc..one could literally pick almost any hobby and there will exist both extremes.

 

Peace

 

[christopher3393]

Forgive me, but I would like to directly address the elephant in the room:

 

If there is an Extreme Week for Equipment, isn't it only right and just that there be (drumroll...) an Extreme Week for Music?

 

What say you?

 

 

[ray-dude]

Ha!  My contribution to Extreme Week for Music is coming in Part 5

 

 

[Iving]

43 minutes ago, christopher3393 said:

an Extreme Week for Music? ... What say you?

 

Aye with gusto

[The Computer Audiophile]

41 minutes ago, christopher3393 said:

Forgive me, but I would like to directly address the elephant in the room:

 

If there is an Extreme Week for Equipment, isn't it only right and just that there be (drumroll...) an Extreme Week for Music?

 

What say you?

 

 

I could've kicked it off with my Three Blind Mice article! If only I had four other great musical discoveries to share!

[austinpop]

I hear you, OP. We live in a stressful time. My PhoenixUSB review, in normal times, would have been done a month earlier. It took me longer because some days, news of the moment would upset my equanimity and I couldn't focus on writing about audio. Trust me, I fully relate to the guilt aspect — is it appropriate to talk about expensive gear in these covidian times, when so many are undergoing economic hardship?

 

We all have to process this in our own way. Like Chris, I view the time spent here on AS, and on the hobby as a whole, as a salve for the stresses we are all going through. If I can bring value, even joy, to someone with my writing, that is motivation enough.

 

I also want to highlight that @ray-dude is a long time AS participant. His journey, like mine and many of us here, started with modest gear, and he's tried to chronicle the path from those modest beginnings to the current "Extreme" state. To me, this is a far more engaging and inclusive style of review, because many of us, if not most, can identify with some stage of his journey. Even if we won't (or can't) go as far as he did, it connects us to his story far more than a conventional review that just talked about the Extreme vs. other high-dollar servers.

 

This is also the reason why I didn't feel that twinge of "guilt" reading it, because I could see that his gains were hard won, and he had an exquisite appreciation for what he was gaining with his purchase. Had he taken an "entitled" tone, I think I would have found it jarring, particularly in these times.

 

2 hours ago, sdolezalek said:

I'd be pretty willing to bet that if Rajiv took a look at my system, he might suggest the equivalent of trying a new spice, something downright affordable but at the same time making me smile hugely at how much better my system sounded and with zero guilt about what I had spent to get there.

 

Any time!

 

Between friends and people who approach me here on AS via PMs, I've given advice to dozens of people. I find that people are happiest when they drive (or pull) the info, and I only offer suggestions based on the situation. Trust me, I don't recommend my crazy spaghetti to all and sundry!

 

Case in point. Someone up-thread mentioned the Node 2i. A friend of mine wanted to setup a little listening space to cheer up his wife, who was finding the self-isolation a bit depressing. He set up a little system with some existing B&W bookshelf speakers, driven by a Peachtree iDecco65 integrated, but wanted a way to stream her favorite Spotify playlists. I lent him my Node 2 to try, and also got them hooked on Qobuz. He now sends me pictures of her relaxing with a glass of wine with a smile on her face.

 

Still, life has some possibility left.

 

Yes indeed!

[AudioDoctor]

4 hours ago, Allan F said:

 

By no reasonable or acceptable definition of the term would a $27,000 music server be considered to be "affordable".

 

Perhaps not to you and me, but I guarantee that there are people out there to whom $27,000 is chump change.

[Allan F]

48 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

Perhaps not to you and me, but I guarantee that there are people out there to whom $27,000 is chump change.

 

I am less concerned about the limited few for whom that is true than I am about correct use of the English language. Notwithstanding that $27,000 may be "chump change" to some, that does not make it "affordable", a term that by definition implies that it is reasonably priced and within the means of many. While its meaning is relative within reason, it cannot be extended to include this very expensive "luxury", to use.@bluesman's  description.

 

The issue of whether or not anyone should judge or feel "guilt" regarding such a purchase is an entirely different issue, and is irrelevant to the etymology of the term.

[stuck limo]

36 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

Perhaps not to you and me, but I guarantee that there are people out there to whom $27,000 is chump change.

 

Money means different things to different people. 

 

A buddy of mine is thinking of spending $70K on the new 2021 Corvette. He gasped when I told I was thinking about spending $4K on a new stereo amplifier. (and he knows how good $10K+ equipment sounds) His other friend spent $150K recently on a new car. 

 

Of course, $150K to my buddy is outrageous, but $70K to him is totally worth it. To me, $4K is absolutely reasonable to get the best sound quality, especially something that will last me the rest of my life. (unlike a car, which will lose its value very rapidly and last only a few short years compared to a stereo component)

 

Either way, no one should feel guilty about purchasing what they want, when they want, as long as their family is provided for. The rest of the world is not your responsibility, nor should you feel pressured to not enjoy yourself just because someone else can't afford what you can. 

 

BTW, this is isn't the first time this has come up:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/in-the-middle-of-a-pandemic-stereophile-reviews-30k-equipment

 

Honestly, if one is concerned about spending "too much" on luxury items, you're probably in the wrong hobby in the wrong places. Nobody "needs" any of this stuff, when a pair of cheap speakers/headphones and a laptop PC will do "good enough". 

 

The audio hobby is supposed to be fun. I wouldn't drop $27K on an audio server (probably?) but that doesn't mean I don't like reading about them and having fun looking at all the new toys and technology in my hobby. I'm in the hobby to escape the world, not feel guilty or concerned about what I should be doing/reading instead. 

[AudioDoctor]

33 minutes ago, Allan F said:

 

I am less concerned about the limited few for whom that is true than I am about correct use of the English language. Notwithstanding that $27,000 may be "chump change" to some, that does not make it "affordable", a term that by definition implies that it is reasonably priced and within the means of many. While its meaning is relative within reason, it cannot be extended to include this very expensive "luxury", to use.@bluesman's  description.

 

The issue of whether or not anyone should judge or feel "guilt" regarding such a purchase is an entirely different issue, and is irrelevant to the etymology of the term.

 

Fine. You win.

[bluesman]

58 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

I guarantee that there are people out there to whom $27,000 is chump change.

Sadly, I guarantee you that there are more people out there who spend it when they shouldn't than there are who can spend it with impunity.  I'm especially amazed at the number who carry permanently high credit card balances or take out loans to buy audio, cameras, cars, clothes, travel, and even cosmetic surgery.  This is one reason for the active secondary market in everything from Pateks to Porsches - when the first big service is needed (or the roof has to be replaced), they're out of the game.

 

I've gotten more than a few great buys on "like new" items over the years from people who overextended themselves (or the dealers who bought back the items at a huge discount).  These are big boys and girls who are free to do as they wish, as long as they accept the consequences.  But many learn nothing from these experiences and do it over and over through the years. I know more than a few families that have suffered because one or both parents dug them into a deep hole.  Unfortunately, some are my relatives.

 

It's a tough world out there, and we each soften it for ourselves as best we can.  Reading about $100k speakers is one of the many balms available, but such remedies are not universally effective.  It's time to sip a wee dram and turn up the volume! 

[AudioDoctor]

8 minutes ago, bluesman said:

Sadly, I guarantee you that there are more people out there who spend it when they shouldn't than there are who can spend it with impunity.  I'm especially amazed at the number who carry permanently high credit card balances or take out loans to buy audio, cameras, cars, clothes, travel, and even cosmetic surgery.  This is one reason for the active secondary market in everything from Pateks to Porsches - when the first big service is needed (or the roof has to be replaced), they're out of the game.

 

I've gotten more than a few great buys on "like new" items over the years from people who overextended themselves (or the dealers who bought back the items at a huge discount).  These are big boys and girls who are free to do as they wish, as long as they accept the consequences.  But many learn nothing from these experiences and do it over and over through the years. I know more than a few families that have suffered because one or both parents dug them into a deep hole.  Unfortunately, some are my relatives.

 

It's a tough world out there, and we each soften it for ourselves as best we can.  Reading about $100k speakers is one of the many balms available, but such remedies are not universally effective.  It's time to sip a wee dram and turn up the volume! 

 

I don't disagree with you at all. I was able to purchase my Porsche used for just that reason...