Is now the right time for "Extreme Week"?

[sdolezalek]

Although I immensely appreciate the amount of thought and work that ray-dude and austinpop put into their all of their exquisite reviews, I have to admit to an odd feeling after reading this week's installment after seeing the title "Extreme Week."  On the one hand I can't help lusting for the quality of sound that the equipment they are reviewing can deliver, but on the other hand I would today feel very guilty spending to buy that equipment in the face of what is going on in the world around us.  In a WFH time, the ability to escape for a few minutes or hours and just listen to some great music may be more important than at any other time in our lives.  But, for many the cost of the kinds of equipment we lust after on Audiophile Style may have permanently moved out of the range of what is affordable.  

 

I'd love to see us equally dedicate a week to reviewing some systems that really deliver the best available listening at an affordable level.  I think if I spent half as much on my next purchase and donated the 50% I didn't spend, that sitting back and listening to those sounds might be a much more satisfying experience...

 

This is not intended as throwing water on the fire of great reviews or great equipment.  Think of it more as challenge to what kind of components (hardware/software) we might suggest for those who may have a lot more listening time on their hands (but not by choice) or who come home from a long day as a first responder and could really use the escape.

[AudioDoctor]

I fully understand and sympathize with your position, however...  "Affordable" means different things to different people.

 

A Schitt Ragnarok and a Yggdrasil may be affordable to some, but way too expensive for some others. Even now.

[AnotherSpin]

3 hours ago, sdolezalek said:

Although I immensely appreciate the amount of thought and work that ray-dude and austinpop put into their all of their exquisite reviews, I have to admit to an odd feeling after reading this week's installment after seeing the title "Extreme Week."  On the one hand I can't help lusting for the quality of sound that the equipment they are reviewing can deliver, but on the other hand I would today feel very guilty spending to buy that equipment in the face of what is going on in the world around us.  In a WFH time, the ability to escape for a few minutes or hours and just listen to some great music may be more important than at any other time in our lives.  But, for many the cost of the kinds of equipment we lust after on Audiophile Style may have permanently moved out of the range of what is affordable.  

 

I'd love to see us equally dedicate a week to reviewing some systems that really deliver the best available listening at an affordable level.  I think if I spent half as much on my next purchase and donated the 50% I didn't spend, that sitting back and listening to those sounds might be a much more satisfying experience...

 

This is not intended as throwing water on the fire of great reviews or great equipment.  Think of it more as challenge to what kind of components (hardware/software) we might suggest for those who may have a lot more listening time on their hands (but not by choice) or who come home from a long day as a first responder and could really use the escape.

 

There is a clear line between what is desirable and what is necessary. The latter costs nothing in many cases, but human existence is impossible without it. And may be very good without all and every thing desirable. By the way, no percentage of donation compensates for dissatisfaction with the sound, even if it is purely imaginary.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

3 hours ago, sdolezalek said:

for many the cost of the kinds of equipment we lust after on Audiophile Style may have permanently moved out of the range of what is affordable.  

 

I have never thought of AS as a high-end gear audio forum. The emphasis always seemed to me to get the best gear/software at the least cost, bang for buck. In the days of "CA" owning expensive gear could get you ridiculed.

 

Quote

I'd love to see us equally dedicate a week to reviewing some systems that really deliver the best available listening at an affordable level. 

 

I think this is already covered in the forums regularly - the extreme week, is more the exception, which I welcome

 

Quote

I think if I spent half as much on my next purchase and donated the 50% I didn't spend, that sitting back and listening to those sounds might be a much more satisfying experience...

 

I don't feel indulging yourself is mutually exclusive with helping others. You can do both. I just don't think the moral imperative should be brought into an audio and music hobby.

 

 

[Iving]

The OP modestly makes clear he: (i) appreciates the efforts of reviewers; (ii) considers the reviews germane "exquisite"; (iii) himself "lusts" after the SQ of expensive equipment; (iv) understands the escape listening motive at this difficult WFH time; and (v) isn't motivated primarily as a spoiler/killjoy.

He wants to reflect on: A. his hypothetical "guilt" should he spend "Extreme"-level money given the world's circumstances, together with his hypothetically enhanced enjoyment of music should he donate part of what he might otherwise spend on his next upgrade; and B. whether there is a shift of focus at AS towards less affordable gear together with whether AS might encourage more reviews at an affordable level (particularly for those at home not-thru-choice, and those working at the coalface whose incomes may not match top-end gear prices).

 

5 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

"Affordable" means different things to different people.

 

I agree that affordability is a state of mind; however, even more is it a matter of depth-of-pocket. I don't wrestle with whether I might have lobster for dinner unless I am wealthy.

 

3 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

I have never thought of AS as a high-end gear audio forum. The emphasis always seemed to me to get the best gear/software at the least cost, bang for buck. In the days of "CA" owning expensive gear could get you ridiculed.

I think this is already covered in the forums regularly - the extreme week, is more the exception, which I welcome.

 

I agree that there is room for everybody here. If you can't afford an Extreme, but want a best possible alternative, you can build your own server assisted exponentially by the knowledge and experience blogged on AS. I am all about bang-for-buck - no matter how much I can or cannot spend. I am not offended remotely by "Extreme Week". The reviews are Ace. I can learn what's good about the Extreme and also corroborate what I know to be questionable (including that Extreme hardware is likely to become dated before you can take another breath, and that depreciation is likely to be significantly worse than driving a Mercedes or Jaguar out of the showroom).

 

3 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

I don't feel indulging yourself is mutually exclusive with helping others. You can do both. I just don't think the moral imperative should be brought into an audio and music hobby.

 

I don't agree with this. You can't spend the same money, time - or even enthusiasm and psychic energy - twice. Whether on self, family or others. I disagree strongly that our moral views should be inhibited or policed. Especially, God forbid, to assuage the cognitive dissonance of the monied. The OP makes a fair point. Many in the world are struggling even more than they were already because of Coronavirus - and there are some proper heroes helping them voluntarily or for not a lot of cash. Why shouldn't we reflect on that here. Nobody has to subscribe to or participate in a Thread they don't like. If this were a Motor Forum, what would be wrong with declaring that you'd have trouble spending 80k rather than 20k or 30k on a car at this time in human history.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

4 minutes ago, Iving said:

 You can't spend the same money, time - or even enthusiasm and psychic energy - twice. Whether on self, family or others.

 

looking after oneself as well as others is NOT mutually exclusive.

 

4 minutes ago, Iving said:

I disagree strongly that our moral views should be inhibited or policed.

 

Who said they should be but this is not a church, nor a political forum. I also don't want my choices "policed" or judged.

 

4 minutes ago, Iving said:

The OP makes a fair point. Many in the world are struggling even more than they were already because of Coronavirus - and there are some proper heroes helping them voluntarily or for not a lot of cash. Why shouldn't we reflect on that here.

 

This is conflating totally separate issues and IMO way inappropriate

 

4 minutes ago, Iving said:

 

 If this were a Motor Forum, what would be wrong with declaring that you'd have trouble spending 80k rather than 20k or 30k on a car at this time in human history.

 

and what is wrong with spending 80k on a car? Perhaps it will help stimulate the economy and keep people employed. But, as i said this is not a political or religious forum

[Iving]

What's under the bonnet here is culture. And diversity of culture. We are what we talk about (both chicken and egg). It's good to talk.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

2 minutes ago, Iving said:

What's under the bonnet here is culture. And diversity of culture. We are what we talk about (both chicken and egg). It's good to talk.

 

How does diversity of culture and/or embracing all cultures relate to caring for people dying of coronavirus or the heroes helping them? We can all contribute in our own way to help and look after others. having some much needed escape time and fun is not taboo, and if that means spending money that will end up in someone else's pocket eventually, so be it. Just as importantly it is how you spend your time, giving of yourself, not just dollars, that matters.

[Iving]

36 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

How does diversity of culture and/or embracing all cultures relate to caring for people dying of coronavirus or the heroes helping them? We can all contribute in our own way to help and look after others. having some much needed escape time and fun is not taboo, and if that means spending money that will end up in someone else's pocket eventually, so be it. Just as importantly it is how you spend your time, giving of yourself, not just dollars, that matters.

 

You seem to be missing the point.

 

Culture is about beliefs; or, more particularly, values. I certainly am not talking about [embracing all] ethnic cultures.

 

Patently you and I have divergent beliefs and values. We dwell in different cultures.

 

Talking about beliefs and values amongst ourselves has an effect on culture (that was the main point of my last post). Freedom to talk - should people want to do it - is a civil liberties matter. In this case we are talking about Hi-Fi. Not politics, religion, wars or anything else like that.

 

I think you've got some "straw" in there we've already covered. Nobody is challenging escape time, giving of self or how you do it - even freedom to spend your money how you like. You don't need to petition for your freedom. You already have it.

 

If we are at cross-purposes, don't worry about it. That's not a crime either.

[The Computer Audiophile]

7 hours ago, sdolezalek said:

Although I immensely appreciate the amount of thought and work that ray-dude and austinpop put into their all of their exquisite reviews, I have to admit to an odd feeling after reading this week's installment after seeing the title "Extreme Week."  On the one hand I can't help lusting for the quality of sound that the equipment they are reviewing can deliver, but on the other hand I would today feel very guilty spending to buy that equipment in the face of what is going on in the world around us.  In a WFH time, the ability to escape for a few minutes or hours and just listen to some great music may be more important than at any other time in our lives.  But, for many the cost of the kinds of equipment we lust after on Audiophile Style may have permanently moved out of the range of what is affordable.  

 

I'd love to see us equally dedicate a week to reviewing some systems that really deliver the best available listening at an affordable level.  I think if I spent half as much on my next purchase and donated the 50% I didn't spend, that sitting back and listening to those sounds might be a much more satisfying experience...

 

This is not intended as throwing water on the fire of great reviews or great equipment.  Think of it more as challenge to what kind of components (hardware/software) we might suggest for those who may have a lot more listening time on their hands (but not by choice) or who come home from a long day as a first responder and could really use the escape.

Hi @sdolezalek, I always value your opinions and this one is no exception. I disagree with you but that’s ok. 
 

I’m doing my best to keep AS from being as big of downer as the world in general right now. I’ve closed topics related to the pandemic because we all get enough of that elsewhere. AS is an escape from reality for many and focused on a hobby that brings us enjoyment. All of which you’re well aware. 
 

You may be pleased to learn I have the new Parasound HINT 6 integrated amp coming in for review. My friends who sell $1M systems tell me it’s the best value in HiFi and competes with all the extremely expensive components. 
 

I also have a review of the Schiit JR coming very soon. Combined with the SR1a headphones, this system is better than many high dollar speaker based systems. 
 

I would love to publish Value Week as a balance to Extreme Week. It all comes down to time, writers, and topics. Regardless of whether the red Ferrari  gets more eyeballs than the beige Toyota Camry, I’d still love to do it because I’m interested as well. 

[Summit]

8 hours ago, sdolezalek said:

Although I immensely appreciate the amount of thought and work that ray-dude and austinpop put into their all of their exquisite reviews, I have to admit to an odd feeling after reading this week's installment after seeing the title "Extreme Week."  On the one hand I can't help lusting for the quality of sound that the equipment they are reviewing can deliver, but on the other hand I would today feel very guilty spending to buy that equipment in the face of what is going on in the world around us.  In a WFH time, the ability to escape for a few minutes or hours and just listen to some great music may be more important than at any other time in our lives.  But, for many the cost of the kinds of equipment we lust after on Audiophile Style may have permanently moved out of the range of what is affordable.  

 

I'd love to see us equally dedicate a week to reviewing some systems that really deliver the best available listening at an affordable level.  I think if I spent half as much on my next purchase and donated the 50% I didn't spend, that sitting back and listening to those sounds might be a much more satisfying experience...

 

This is not intended as throwing water on the fire of great reviews or great equipment.  Think of it more as challenge to what kind of components (hardware/software) we might suggest for those who may have a lot more listening time on their hands (but not by choice) or who come home from a long day as a first responder and could really use the escape.

 

You asked I good question which I could have answered, but instead of doing that I will ask you one instead. If there are many people that are genuinely interested to know how those "extreme” audio gear, which some member actually own, sounds like and that many of us can’t demo for ourselves (look-down, cost, ability etc). I don’t only read impressions because I want to get the latest or shiniest myself, it’s because am interested in the tech and design progression in (digital) audio. Isn’t it better that we are giving the chance to at least read about how the latest SOTA gear sound like and compared to other more well-known gear now that many are stuck at home most of the time?

[FIndingit]

In my view it's the extensive, five-part, epic coverage of this "supercomputer" which makes me feel a bit uneasy. The most expensive equipment get the longest, most pompous articles for dramatic effect of course, but there's something outdated in the whole idea.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

  

1 hour ago, Iving said:

 

You seem to be missing the point.

 

I don't think so.

 

1 hour ago, Iving said:

 

Culture is about beliefs; or, more particularly, values. I certainly am not talking about [embracing all] ethnic cultures.

 

Then you should have particularly stated that you were talking about beliefs and in particular, values - not a broader construct "What's under the bonnet here is culture. And diversity of culture"

 

1 hour ago, Iving said:

 

Patently you and I have divergent beliefs and values.

 

Not necessarily. I may well share your values but just not want to talk about them in an audio forum. Your statement that "moral views should not be inhibited or policed", implies that I do. This is a mischaracterization. IMO there is a time and a place.

 

1 hour ago, Iving said:

 

Talking about beliefs and values amongst ourselves has an effect on culture (that was the main point of my last post). Freedom to talk - should people want to do it - is a civil liberties matter.

 

No-one is implying a denial of civil liberties. I prefer if we keep politics and religion and the pandemic out of HiFi discussions.

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I’m doing my best to keep AS from being as big of downer as the world in general right now. I’ve closed topics related to the pandemic because we all get enough of that elsewhere. AS is an escape from reality for many and focused on a hobby that brings us enjoyment.

 

1 hour ago, Iving said:

 

If we are at cross-purposes, don't worry about it. That's not a crime either.

 

👌

[The Computer Audiophile]

22 minutes ago, FIndingit said:

In my view it's the extensive, five-part, epic coverage of this "supercomputer" which makes me feel a bit uneasy. The most expensive equipment get the longest, most pompous articles for dramatic effect of course, but there's something outdated in the whole idea.

 

We've never done this before. It seems you may have seen other sites do this or something? 

[Iving]

30 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

Then you should have particularly stated that you were talking about beliefs and in particular ...

 

There was no need, but thank you for correcting me.

 

30 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

I may well share your values ...

 

Not as I see it ...

 

6 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

I just don't think the moral imperative should be brought into an audio and music hobby.

 

30 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

Your statement that "moral views should not be inhibited or policed", implies that I do. This is a mischaracterization. IMO there is a time and a place.

 

No-one is implying a denial of civil liberties. I prefer if we keep politics and religion and the pandemic out of HiFi discussions.

 

lol too many oxymorons

 

[anyway please review this isn't politics or religion it's spending lots of money or not on hifi]

[The Computer Audiophile]

Nobody wants to read two people argue all day either. I respect both of you guys, but don't believe anything will be gained by the two of you continuing to go back and forth. 

[jabbr]

3 hours ago, Iving said:

 

I agree that there is room for everybody here. If you can't afford an Extreme, but want a best possible alternative, you can build your own server assisted exponentially by the knowledge and experience blogged on AS. I am all about bang-for-buck - no matter how much I can or cannot spend. I am not offended remotely by "Extreme Week".

Agreed. I would like to point out that the “Extreme” might be the best option for the particular configuration selected — it feeds the Chord Upsampler. If one wants an “Extreme” server capable of extreme HQPlayer upsampling, I suspect this would NOT be the best, simply because single core CPU speed is the most important parameter ... and do a fancy extreme cooling solution to overclock an i9-10900K ... which has been liquid nitro cooled to 7.7 GHz! Might be better ... that said by our most recent testing wouldn’t get to EC modulators at DSD512 rates ... in any case there are different techniques each optimized for different requirements. There is no one right answer!

[Iving]

7 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Agreed. I would like to point out that the “Extreme” might be the best option for the particular configuration selected — it feeds the Chord Upsampler. If one wants an “Extreme” server capable of extreme HQPlayer upsampling, I suspect this would NOT be the best, simply because single core CPU speed is the most important parameter ... and do a fancy extreme cooling solution to overclock an i9-10900K ... which has been liquid nitro cooled to 7.7 GHz! Might be better ... that said by our most recent testing wouldn’t get to EC modulators at DSD512 rates ... in any case there are different techniques each optimized for different requirements. There is no one right answer!

 

... plus some technology already "old" (low tdp easy to cool) might be better for some needs - e.g. no upsampling / offline playback etc.

[jabbr]

1 minute ago, Iving said:

 

... plus some technology already "old" might be better for some needs - e.g. no upsampling / offline playback etc.

To each his or her own ... I do strongly feel that if someone makes the effort to do a multipart review then it deserves publication.

[Iving]

Just now, jabbr said:

To each his or her own ... I do strongly feel that if someone makes the effort to do a multipart review then it deserves publication.

 

The reviews are Ace. Loads to learn. Entertaining too.

[rando]

Let the Extreme Weak protest continue CC.  Better here than below the articles.  Holding up @ray-dude or @austinpop or anyone else still possessed of inquisitive spirit from forging new personal explorations is more hurtful towards the efforts of Peter or Jussi than letting fresh life in.  Not that the hobby has a small issue attracting newer younger interest or anything.

 

That may be too blunt for many.  Especially those unwilling to consider selling $20 audio toys is no less harsh an environment to prosper in than that of $200K audio art.  

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, rando said:

Let the Extreme Weak protest continue CC.  Better here than below the articles.  Holding up @ray-dude or @austinpop or anyone else still possessed of inquisitive spirit from forging new personal explorations is more hurtful towards the efforts of Peter or Jussi than letting fresh life in.  Not that the hobby has a small issue attracting newer younger interest or anything.

 

That may be too blunt for many.  Especially those unwilling to consider selling $20 audio toys is no less harsh an environment to prosper in than that of $200K audio art.  

With all due respect, I have no idea what you mean by that. Sorry, I may be slow. 

[Foggie]

I was going to comment in Ray's extreme comment area but this seemed a better place....The Dave as a preamp and amp? A very different take and implementation no doubt.  Comparing that to a tube pre with mono's or an integrated etc.. would prove different results and more than likely significant (either way) IMHO.

 

Which leads me to say, Ray's journey/write up is but a snap shot specific to him and his environment IMHO.  Its an interesting read for sure and its very cool to see how much he is enjoying this!  THAT is what its all about.  I would be too with a new toy for sure!

 

I don't want to veer too OT, but I think people have to realize or at least put into context and to use Ray as an example, he is doing his own thing and making his own conclusions for what works for him, which is GREAT and is something everyone NEEDS to do.  Following the opinion of an individual for a good read, and for use as a data point is fine, but I think some get way too caught up in taking someone else's findings as an absolute?  It may or may not at all correlate with ones own system/experience, many times it doesn't => "Jim says its so, so it must be".  

 

It's fun to see how others eval, setup and relay their findings, but again, its their findings.  Enjoy your own journey, learn from others what's applicable to you and don't worry where or what the "bar" is at, its not a competition.  Peace

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, Foggie said:

I was going to comment in Ray's extreme comment area but this seemed a better place....The Dave as a preamp and amp? A very different take and implementation no doubt.  Comparing that to a tube pre with mono's or an integrated etc.. would prove different results and more than likely significant (either way) IMHO.

 

Which leads me to say, Ray's journey/write up is but a snap shot specific to him and his environment IMHO.  Its an interesting read for sure and its very cool to see how much he is enjoying this!  THAT is what its all about.  I would be too with a new toy for sure!

 

I don't want to veer too OT, but I think people have to realize or at least put into context and to use Ray as an example, he is doing his own thing and making his own conclusions for what works for him, which is GREAT and is something everyone NEEDS to do.  Following the opinion of an individual for a good read, and for use as a data point is fine, but I think some get way too caught up in taking someone else's findings as an absolute?  It may or may not at all correlate with ones own system/experience, many times it doesn't => "Jim says its so, so it must be".  

 

It's fun to see how others eval, setup and relay their findings, but again, its their findings.  Enjoy your own journey, learn from others what's applicable to you and don't worry where or what the "bar" is at, its not a competition.  Peace

 

Well said. 

[bluesman]

This thread is really about a lot more than the wisdom, advisability and societal consequences of buying luxury goods (and I can only define a 5 figure piece of audio gear as a luxury - it’s neither a necessity nor mainstream entertainment).

 

First, it’s about personal codes of behavior.  Many who could afford high end living are comfortable and happy being down a rung or two.  One of my mentors when I was a resident and junior attending physician was a descendant of the founders of the Pennsylvania Railroad.  The family name is on everything from roads to skyscrapers.  He was a very nice and humble man (and a world class surgeon) who drove a Chevy, wore OTR suits, and never let a medical student or resident suffer because of a problem with which he could assist.  He and many of his colleagues (of whom he was not the only offspring of old money) were charitable because they were raised to be and thought it was the right thing to do.  Most were nice to everybody - they truly defined “gentleman” and “gentlewoman” (yes, I was educated by world class female physicians too).  Many of my friends and colleagues today are the same way.

 

There are many who feel that they earned their money and have a right to spend it however they wish, and for whatever reason they embrace.  They’re not wrong.  And many of those artists who design state of the art audio equipment that sells for 5 or 6 figures are just following their passions to an extreme.  There’s nothing wrong with that, either.
 

The cost of a pair of big Magicos would provide school lunches for much of the world’s starving children for days to weeks.  The excess caloric content ingested by the world’s obese population would cure those kids’ hunger permanently if redistributed to them.  But we also have the freedom to buy those speakers and eat twice as much as we need biologically.
 

This thread already demonstrates the difficulty of reconciling differences like these and assimilating them into a broad cultural context with which we could all live happily (even if not quite as satisfied in some aspects).  The closest we’re going to get to this is probably a balanced menu that has something for each “culture”.  We just have to be willing to let a few posted statements that may violate our personal code go unanswered.  
 

High end reviews are very interesting to me, even though I wouldn’t personally buy a $100,00+ component (or car).  I’ve bought many high end items used, just to experience them.  I later resold them with little or no loss (& not infrequently a bit of profit). But (as many of you know), value is my middle name - praise be to the Raspberry Pi!  So I’m lovin’ it all.  In the end, it shouldn’t be about any of us.  It’s about music and art and creativity and fun and adventure and learning.  
 

I think it should also be about the world in which we live and are leaving for our children.  But a healthy balance should be part of that, which to me means letting neither children nor artists go hungry.  If some of us help one group and some the other, it’s OK with me.  Stay the course, Chris.