bbosler Posted May 20, 2020 Share Posted May 20, 2020 I'm worn out just reading it. You must be exhausted after doing it. You mention the Hugo Upscaler but I don't see it in your Part 1 diagram. Are you not using it or does that come in later? I'm curious why you would choose a Monoprice USB extender to connect the Extreme to the Dave, and more fundamentally why USB at all? Since both devices will handle digital via BNC or AES, or at least the Extreme will if you add that option, it seems to me doing the digital conversion to USB out of the Extreme and back in the DAVE can't improve anything? In my mind, the use of USB is for when you have to, not the first choice when you do have choices. Eager to get your and anyone else's take on it. While we are at it... a shout out for Milcho Leviev on MA recordings. As a huge Art pepper fan I discovered him on the Live at Ronnie Scott's "Blues for the Fisherman" sets and was excited to see him on MA. I only have the one available to download with the other 2 set to arrive in a few days. BTW the Ronnie Scott stuff is superb with the Pure Pleasure vinyl box set a delight. https://www.analogplanet.com/content/art-pepper-ronnie-scott-stand-issued-complete-0 see my system at Audiogon https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/768 Link to comment
Popular Post bbosler Posted May 20, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted May 20, 2020 49 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: What do you mean conversion? It's data going from the Extreme to the DAVE. There is no intermediate conversion to an audio format then back to USB data. "Conversion" was the wrong word. Maybe I know just enough to be dangerous, but USB was never designed with audio in mind, it is like ethernet where packets of data are sent with no real regard to timing. If the data file gets there intact it is a success.. don't really care when the packets get there, just that they do. On the other hand with audio it is all about timing which has led to various schemes to overcome the inherent problems with USB timing, like the asynchronous mode your Rossini uses. So you are correct, it is not converted, but broken into packets and sent that way. On the other hand spdif and AES are streams of data with embedded timing. Just seems like a better way to go than breaking down into packets then reassembling at the other end. That said, perhaps the problems associated with overcoming timing issues with spdif are greater than those inherent with USB. I'm thinking with extremely stable clocking solutions like the Mutec REF10 to control the data transfer or what I would hope would be extremely stable clocks in a $26K server, that spdif might be a better solution. So at this point I am officially in over my head, but given the extreme measures audiophiles are taking with USB (Sotm, ISO Regen, the new Innous, and others) I don't see where USB would be the goto solution to transfer data. I now see the Dave will do 384K on BNC but only 96K on AES which is a bit odd, but realistically... is there any performance difference from upscaling to 768 you can transfer via USB vs 384 via BNC? That's a question, not a statement of fact, Like I said, maybe know just enough to be dangerous, but The Computer Audiophile and ray-dude 1 1 see my system at Audiogon https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/768 Link to comment
bbosler Posted May 20, 2020 Share Posted May 20, 2020 1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said: 1 hour ago, bbosler said: In my mind, the use of USB is for when you have to, not the first choice when you do have choices. Why do you feel that way? I'm usually the opposite. That is my next experiment. I am using an Antelope Eclipse 384 for my DAC which is superb. Currently USB with an ISOregen. I have a Mutec 3+ USB coming that will take the USB and reclock it into an AES stream for the DAC. I'm hoping that with my REF10 also feeding the Mutec reclocker it will be even better... we'll see. Still starting with USB but my Mac Mini server has no other options. see my system at Audiogon https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/768 Link to comment
Popular Post bbosler Posted May 20, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted May 20, 2020 14 minutes ago, bobflood said: everything in audio is a compromise. and there you have it... well said so with everything needing a Band-Aid, we have all of these companies jumping in to sell us the next, best Band-Aid. You have to love capitalists preying on the phobias of audiophiles Alas, I can't afford any $26K Taiko Band-Aids so I'll play at a lower level Disclaimer: As a Johnson and Johnson employee this was a shameless plug for Band-Aids. Pale Rider and Audiophile Neuroscience 2 see my system at Audiogon https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/768 Link to comment
bbosler Posted May 21, 2020 Share Posted May 21, 2020 2 hours ago, Archimago said: Perhaps one concrete example of concerns that can be repeated and confirmed to be a problem might be helpful here to cut through the vague speculations? Ok, my concern is very concrete and not at all vague. If you believe what you read in these reviews, one needs to spend many thousands if not 10's of thousands of dollars to overcome the limitations inherent in music servers with a USB output. The USB data stream coming from a 10 year old Mac Mini you can buy for a few hundred dollars contains the exact same data as the stream coming from this $26K server. So if asynchronous is the answer, and that is all controlled by the receiver, our friend Ray-Dude is wasting a tremendous amount of money (and time), and everyone investing in any type of USB re-clocker/buffer/ whatever you want to call it, high dollar audiophile ethernet switch, etc. is also wasting their money. If they are not wasting their money then there is something these $$$ devices are doing to overcome whatever problems these data schemes inherently have. That said, I don't have a concrete example of what that problem is. Just saying if a $26K server sounds better than the Mac Mini, there must be some problem with USB that it is addressing. So my question to you... are they wasting their money ? Summit 1 see my system at Audiogon https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/768 Link to comment
bbosler Posted May 21, 2020 Share Posted May 21, 2020 8 minutes ago, Archimago said: I was mainly responding to your post suggesting that "Audio is not big enough to get teams of highly paid engineers working on on an interface just for high quality audio data transfer". Not sure what engineering interface issue you're referring to here... If there is an engineering issue, then what concrete concerns do you think engineers should fix? that was Bob 9 minutes ago, Archimago said: honestly don't see an issue now with USB after all these years. So that answers the question.. which despite all of the fun we all may be having playing around with this stuff and the idea of "wasted money" may not be the exact way to say it, if USB has no issues as you say then anybody spending money to solve a non-existent issue is by definition, spending money they don't have to to achieve the same result. If USB has no issues, then one way to say it would be they are wasting money to solve this non-existent issue. If there isn't an engineering issue, then this highly engineered product is not needed. BTW I'm not arguing. I'm asking legitimate questions that I obviously can't answer or I would be making statements, not asking. see my system at Audiogon https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/768 Link to comment
bbosler Posted May 21, 2020 Share Posted May 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Archimago said: Quote If USB has no issues, then one way to say it would be they are wasting money to solve this non-existent issue. If there isn't an engineering issue, then this highly engineered product is not needed. We can still spend money on machines and upgrades for one reason or another. Who said it had to be about USB issues?! "Who said it had to be about USB issues?!" to put it very simply, since the sole job of the server is to deliver packets of data to the DAC over USB, and these servers deliver the same data yet sound different, how can it be about anything but USB ? If, as you say, USB has no issues, then all USB servers running the same bit perfect software must sound the same. Perhaps we are talking past each other so I will try to clarify my point. First a few givens or at least what I believe to be givens after reading the review to this point. the method of delivering data to the DAC has not changed (USB) the DAC and speakers have not changed As far as we know the new server is not changing the data in any way i.e. the packets of data coming from the new server are the same as the packets of data from previous servers. I say this because Ray says one of his goals is bit perfect and he is using the same software. so if all of that is true, and this Extreme server sounds significantly different than previous servers, the only thing that could have possibly changed is how this new server delivers these packets to the DAC. Therefore, USB must have some inherent issues that this server deals with differently than the previous servers. I am open to the possibility I am missing something, but I see no other possibility. which brings me full circle to how I got started on this. If different USB servers sound different, how would the DAVE sound via the spdif inputs from the Extreme compared to the USB? This far into the game why not try an obvious, at least to me, possible way to improve things by trying spdif. I do agree on the suggestion for DSP. I worked with Mitch Barnett who configured some Audiolense filters for me that I use inside Roon to great effect. see my system at Audiogon https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/768 Link to comment
bbosler Posted May 21, 2020 Share Posted May 21, 2020 7 hours ago, matthias said: There is a post from Taiko Audio about this topic:: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-114#post-617806 thanks for the link. I'm not going to read all 200 or so pages of it, but the page you linked points directly to what I am saying. from Taiko who apparently agree with my point i.e. USB is not simply USB, different implementations yield different results. Quote A big difference with server technology is the interface. These transport/dac stacks all use/used AES or a proprietary variation on that to transport I2S between them. It may come as no surprise that the AES or SPDIF output we can optionally fit into the Extreme sounds closer to a CD transport than USB or Ethernet. Generally speaking it can give you a somewhat softer / more laidback presentation. But USB or Ethernet are the interfaces of the future. On the DAC end these are not always very well executed, as strange as it may sound it's a different technology then Digital to Analogue conversion so it's often just fitted because manufacturers have to, but not always well implemented. see my system at Audiogon https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/768 Link to comment
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