Article: Review | Innuos PhoenixUSB Reclocker

[edwardsean]

I love my Phoenix, but I would bet the Gaia would give it a run for its money–for a lot less money. 

 

The internals show a pretty impressive build and Denafrips has done a marvelous job in providing value through their direct to consumer model. 

 

The only fundamental limitation is the lack of USB output, which for me is a deal breaker. If your DAC can accept I2S, I would think the Gaia would be a better choice factoring in cost. 

[Hiker]

2 hours ago, edwardsean said:

I love my Phoenix, but I would bet the Gaia would give it a run for its money–for a lot less money. 

 

The internals show a pretty impressive build and Denafrips has done a marvelous job in providing value through their direct to consumer model. 

 

The only fundamental limitation is the lack of USB output, which for me is a deal breaker. If your DAC can accept I2S, I would think the Gaia would be a better choice factoring in cost. 

Your guessing by just looking it, Looking at the internals of Denafrips terminator with curiously no serial numbers anywhere looks impressive also however a previous 1 bit FPGA proprietory design dac from Eastern Europe that sold for almost a grand less was preferred over the Denafrips by 2 out of 3 of us checking it out in our own systems is much more preferable then reading online excitement some love to join in , I’m not saying you do this of course.

So I’d be a little more sceptical , I just had the Ideon Master Time to directly compare to the Phoenix , its equally as impressive as the Phoenix, same cost however I wish I had it for a solid month .

[edwardsean]

I am totally guessing by looking at the internals as well as what Denafrips has produced in general. It is just speculation on my part, but if you know what you're looking at, you can make some educated guesses looking at the components and PCB. Without hearing it, I could be wrong, of course. But, there's enough there to get excited about even while blocking out any online hype.  

 

Most of all I was careful to add "factoring in cost." The Gaia comes in at just about half the price of the Phoenix, and given the benefits of I2S, I would be shocked if it didn't provide better value, if it fits your DAC. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I–love–my Phoenix, and I can't use the Gaia since it has no USB. However, if it makes sense for your system, I think it's safe to say that it has a lot potential, especially at its price. 

 

[yyz]

Denafrips serial numbers,

https://www.vinshineaudio.com/so/5dN3cxJA5#/main

[richard_crl032]

On 5/15/2020 at 12:33 PM, jrobbins50 said:

@austinpop, thank you. Wondering if you’ve ever had the opportunity to hear, and thus have a point of reference to comment upon, this far less expensive USB reclocking device:

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/ideon-audio-3r-usb-renaissance-usb-hub/ JCR 

 

Hi Austin,

 

I have the older mk1 in my car and home system.

 

In my system, it bettered the ifi usb3.0 that I have and it is a nice bimp on SQ for the $.

 

Not sure if mk2 at increased $ is worthwhile but I stopped using it after getting the Antipodes EX to replace the allo usb bridge signature as it sounded worse.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

[Hiker]

On 8/3/2020 at 2:00 AM, yyz said:

Denafrips serial numbers,

https://www.vinshineaudio.com/so/5dN3cxJA5#/main

Just to clarify back 2017 when I had the Denafrips Terminator there were no S/N that we could see inside or out , however that’s not saying one could be found if we stripped it apart .

Actually listening to Idion Audio’s 3R Master Time and Innous Phoenix they are very impressive at what they do .

[ConcreteCow]

Hi Hiker,

What's your view please with the Ideon Audio 3R Master Time and the Innuos Pheonix?

I would like to buy either one and would like more opinions between the two before decisions are made.

Many thanks.

[Hiker]

4 hours ago, ConcreteCow said:

Hi Hiker,

What's your view please with the Ideon Audio 3R Master Time and the Innuos Pheonix?

I would like to buy either one and would like more opinions between the two before decisions are made.

Many thanks.

The owner of the Ideon Master Time brought it over to my place just for a couple hours to check out side by side with the Innuos Phoenix , you get a immediate jump in performance with either .

Though I would like more time with the Ideon and hopefully we can trade components for a few days or longer .

 

[ConcreteCow]

Okie dokie ....

Look at what I've got to play with....

This will be interesting ....

I have on board for home trial an Ideon Audio Master Time 3R and an Innuos Phoenix.

If only I could locate a Demo Gaia .....

I will be connecting up this weekend and will post back my findings soon.

One of these may end up being a 'keeper' for me so I'm very excited to trial after many positive comments.

Thanks to all who have taken the time to place their views/comments on this thread so far of which I have found both informative and interesting.

Time for some 'Toons'.....

 

[ConcreteCow]

So.....

I've had a very short listen with the Phoenix ....

Hmmnnn....

Not sure what I'm supposed to be hearing.

The only differences I hear are slightly more solid Bass and a smidgen of improved Treble.

Kick Drums are slightly more solid with Cymbals and Hi-Hat slightly more defined and crisp.

I'm running it through the USB cable supplied with the Phoenix from my Zenith and a Lush 2 to my DAC.

I've got a funny feeling my DAC might not be good enough and my speakers not as revealing as other peoples.

I will continue to 'run in' the Phoenix and see if things open up  more

By the way.... that USB cable supplied as standard with the Phoenix is very, very good!

 

[ConcreteCow]

Hi to all again,

Could I ask if either of these set ups over the top?

 

Innuos Zenith MK3 > Audioquest Coffee USB > Phoenix USB Reclocker > Lush 2 > Chord M Scaler > Lush 2 > Chord TT2 DAC

 

Or

 

Innuos Zenith MK3 > Audioquest Coffee USB > Phoenix USB Reclocker > Lush 2 > Chord M Scaler > Lush 2 > Topping D90 DAC

 

What would you add, subtract or swap over?

 

I have inserted a Phoenix USB reclocker in my current system, but I'm not hearing a vast improvement as of yet, after two days listening (It has over 100 hours on it via demos).

 

Am I better off instead with an Chord M Scaler to the D90? Then later down the line adding a Chord TT2 DAC?

 

Would love to hear any suggestions.

 

 

 

 

 

[austinpop]

59 minutes ago, ConcreteCow said:

I have inserted a Phoenix USB reclocker in my current system, but I'm not hearing a vast improvement as of yet, after two days listening (It has over 100 hours on it via demos).

 

First rule of buying audio gear — use your own ears! Use reviews and other people's opinions as a guide, perhaps to shortlist candidates, and then try before you buy. It looks like you are doing that, and good for you. If it doesn't deliver enough value to your ears, then that's all that ultimately matters.

 

That said, I am somewhat surprised by your experience. I don't have any experience with the D90 DAC unfortunately.

 

Quote

Am I better off instead with an Chord M Scaler to the D90?

 

The Chord M Scaler is not a good fit with the D90. The M Scaler needs to deliver its upsampled signal (up to 768 kHz) to the DAC via 2 S/PDIF inputs in "dual data mode." I don't think the D90 has 2 coaxial or BNC inputs. And the one it has only goes to 192 kHz. So you could only get 1/4 of the million taps the HMS can deliver. 

 

Quote

Then later down the line adding a Chord TT2 DAC?

 

If you are considering a DAC upgrade, then I would suggest flipping the order. Try the TT2 first as a standalone replacement to the D90. See — or rather, hear — what you think. If you like what you hear, then at a later point, you can add on the M-Scaler. The Phoenix will help in both cases.

 

So, using your own ears to judge value for money, and trying before buying, you could compare:

1. Innuos Zenith MK3 > (USB) > D90
2. Innuos Zenith MK3 > (USB) > TT2
3. Innuos Zenith MK3 > (USB) > Phoenix > (USB) > TT2
4. Innuos Zenith MK3 > (USB) > Phoenix > (USB) > M-Scaler > (dual BNC) > TT2

 

[ConcreteCow]

Thanks austinpop,

Some great info and recommendations there for me to follow.

So.... Do you think there will firstly be a big difference if I replace the Topping D90 MQA DAC with the Chord TT2 DAC?

Silly question maybe.... As it's an multi award winning DAC and costs 7.5 times the cost of a D90 MQA.... But sometimes it makes no difference at all if one adds something into a system that is not able to handle it or is configured in a strange way.

I'm guessing.... hoping.... I'm going in the direction of big improvement as this is another big step for me. Admittedly, the D90 MQA was purchased to 'get me on' the digital bandwagon for an acceptable budget so to speak. 

 

 

 

[ConcreteCow]

I've now swapped the Phoenix I have on Demo over to the Ideon Master Time 3R also on demo loan.

There was no discernable sound difference compared to the Phoenix. I have even swapped the current USB cables out again for two David Laboga Expression Emerald USB cables to make sure all signals are equal in and out. I didn't like the sound. But then I probably need to get used to the 'new sound' after changing the USB cables. 

For the cost of each of these re-clockers I'm not hearing any major improvements to make the investment. Yes... very, very slight improvement in a tighter Bass and defined Treble but nothing of great note and no wider soundstage then I'm already getting without a re-clocker attached.

I think I have definitely narrowed my issue down to the DAC I'm using. My D90 MQA is no slouch or cheapie DAC, but in this instance, I believe a higher quality DAC is needed when 'playing' about with one of these re-clockers. 

So..... I think I will not take up any more time with these two re-clockers and allow others who may be in the queue to demo for themselves. I will now concentrate the designated funds on purchasing a higher grade DAC. I'm looking at the Chord Hugo TT2 but others are in the frame as well. Just depends now on what is available for home demo.

Unfortunately, I can't afford both a re-clocker and high grade DAC at once, but will happily try again once I get my new DAC sorted and settled by way of installation/run in and memorising the sound signature prior to attaching a re-clocker again.

It was an interesting experiment for me and shows that just by bolting on a item that, although reportedly very good by way of what it does and the positive online reviews, will not necessarily work to its maximum potential straight away in all systems regardless of what they are comprised of.

I will keep you updated as to my progress and thoughts very soon.

 

 

[ASRMichael]

1 hour ago, ConcreteCow said:

I've now swapped the Phoenix I have on Demo over to the Ideon Master Time 3R also on demo loan.

There was no discernable sound difference compared to the Phoenix. I have even swapped the current USB cables out again for two David Laboga Expression Emerald USB cables to make sure all signals are equal in and out. I didn't like the sound. But then I probably need to get used to the 'new sound' after changing the USB cables. 

For the cost of each of these re-clockers I'm not hearing any major improvements to make the investment. Yes... very, very slight improvement in a tighter Bass and defined Treble but nothing of great note and no wider soundstage then I'm already getting without a re-clocker attached.

I think I have definitely narrowed my issue down to the DAC I'm using. My D90 MQA is no slouch or cheapie DAC, but in this instance, I believe a higher quality DAC is needed when 'playing' about with one of these re-clockers. 

So..... I think I will not take up any more time with these two re-clockers and allow others who may be in the queue to demo for themselves. I will now concentrate the designated funds on purchasing a higher grade DAC. I'm looking at the Chord Hugo TT2 but others are in the frame as well. Just depends now on what is available for home demo.

Unfortunately, I can't afford both a re-clocker and high grade DAC at once, but will happily try again once I get my new DAC sorted and settled by way of installation/run in and memorising the sound signature prior to attaching a re-clocker again.

It was an interesting experiment for me and shows that just by bolting on a item that, although reportedly very good by way of what it does and the positive online reviews, will not necessarily work to its maximum potential straight away in all systems regardless of what they are comprised of.

I will keep you updated as to my progress and thoughts very soon.

 

 

How long a break-in did you leave before you listening session? The Sean Jacobs design will take at least a month until you hear the real benefits. 
 

I’v just bought another SJ LPS. Now need to wait a month until it’s broken in. 

[ConcreteCow]

Hi ASRMichael,

Yes. I have been informed that both items have been 'broken in' as they are demo items.

Both re-clockers have in excess of 100 hours.

My own USB cables have good long use.

The supplied David Laboga USB cables which came with the 3R have many, many hours as they are demo cables.

 

[ConcreteCow]

I have most definitely checked all my settings on my current DAC in use just in case.

All settings are as they should be with no filters adding or subtracting signals/sounds.

All connected correctly and no mains leads too close or touching signal cables.

 

[edwardsean]

I was going to write up some notes comparing the tx-USBUltra vs. Phoenix, but Jay just posted a fairly comprehensive article on his site:

 

https://audiobacon.net/2020/09/08/innuos-phoenix-usb-reclocker-review/

 

Though he preferred the Phoenix, he found the SOtM and Phoenix closer than I did and teased out more of the differences in flavor. I think this underscores again just how much the power supply plays into the sound. I was using an LPS1.2 with my tx-USBUltra SE with some wonderful results, but, the sound could be thin and diffuse where the Phoenix was fuller and more disciplined. Jay used a PH SR4 and I'm sure a very nice power cable–a much more fair comparison.

 

Irregardless of supply, as Jay mentioned, the Phoenix adds greater depth. The width also expanded but I had to listen for it. The increase in depth leapt out at me. The Sean Jacobs PS in the Phoenix also provides a great level of richness that I think would fit any system. I also noticed a greater level of detail with the Phoenix, whether owing to the OCXO, PS, or total design. Jay did not mention differences in detail retrieval and resolution even though he wasn't using a master clock with the tx-USBUltra. Again the SR4 may have evened things up in his tests. 

 

Both are truly impressive units, and I enjoyed the tx-USBUltra in my system. However, at least with the LPS1.2, the Phoenix+SJ PS clearly outclassed it. 

 

[Roasty]

Has anyone tried two reclockers in sequence? ie source > txusbultra > phoenix > ddc/dac

 

Also, anyone have experience with phoenix > dac VS phoenix > ddc > dac? 

[fpalm69]

Does the Phoenix need 5V on the USB input?

I asked two Innuos dealers and got two different answers.  Innuos has not replied back with my question.

[austinpop]

At least my review sample required 5V VBUS on the input.

 

I found this out the hard way, as I was using an “unpowered” Sablon 2020 USB cable on the input and it wouldn’t work.

 

Details in the review.

[soares]

On 9/19/2020 at 7:14 AM, Roasty said:

Has anyone tried two reclockers in sequence? ie source > txusbultra > phoenix > ddc/dac

 

Also, anyone have experience with phoenix > dac VS phoenix > ddc > dac? 

Yes: RUR + iR

 

[SackATK]

On 9/19/2020 at 6:14 AM, Roasty said:

Has anyone tried two reclockers in sequence? ie source > txusbultra > phoenix > ddc/dac

 

Also, anyone have experience with phoenix > dac VS phoenix > ddc > dac? 

I received my Phoenix a few days ago and I've been listening on my Benchmark DAC3 B/HPA4 headphone system and my Kii Audio Three System (Both use same Shunyata based power). Currently, the opticalRendu feeds the ISO Regen which feeds the Phoenix. My best USB cable Shunyata Alpha sits between ISO Regen and Phoenix.  I have yet to remove the ISO Regen to see how it may affect the Phoenix but let me say in terms of musicality, the Phoenix has been one of the best bang for my buck investments! 

 

Here are my notes from the first night of listening on headphones:

 

liquid

quite

relaxed

smooth

ease

better tonality

dynamic - lively

analog

enhanced reverb - decay

airiness

clarity in high end - and everywhere

better instruments/singers separation

less busy - less fatiguing

hear new things in every familiar song

can hear more voices singing

excellent synergy with this system

 

If I had to choose one word to decribe the Phoenix it is EASE.  It allows the music to play with ease and the "noise peaks" are more relaxed and this allows me to enjoy the music at a louder level which literally amplifies everything good in the music.  I would gladly pay the price again for another Phoenix level of enjoyment. 

 

 

[SackATK]

On 9/19/2020 at 6:14 AM, Roasty said:

Has anyone tried two reclockers in sequence? ie source > txusbultra > phoenix > ddc/dac

 

Also, anyone have experience with phoenix > dac VS phoenix > ddc > dac? 

I just reminded myself that the Kii Controller in the Kii Three system is actually a DDC. I'm not 100% sure but I believe the Kii Controller converts the USB signal to AES or some proprietary protocol.  So to answer your second question, yes I've tried Phoenix to DDC and it is excellent.  The improvements in the Kii Three system is similar to the improvements in the Benchmark DAC 3/HPA4 system although a little less so.  My Benchmark system is more revealing and this may explain why. 

[firedog]

6 hours ago, SackATK said:

I just reminded myself that the Kii Controller in the Kii Three system is actually a DDC. I'm not 100% sure but I believe the Kii Controller converts the USB signal to AES or some proprietary protocol.  So to answer your second question, yes I've tried Phoenix to DDC and it is excellent.  The improvements in the Kii Three system is similar to the improvements in the Benchmark DAC 3/HPA4 system although a little less so.  My Benchmark system is more revealing and this may explain why. 

The Kii converts all incoming audio to the same PCM sample rate before applying it's DSP (93.75 hz, if I remember correctly). IME, it sounds best when you simply feed it the source file without changing the sample rate, and you let it do it's thing as it's designed to do.

I haven't used it with an external reclocker, so I can't commment on that.